After years of TOT, why is India lagging behind?

[Yusuf]

This question has always haunted me. India has over the years got full TOT for all weapons systems. But till date it has faced a lot of problems manufacturing the same indigenously. China has reverse engineered and developed clones whereas India is still to make an operational engine for fighters, yet to have a production tank etc.
Most of the time we have reinvented the wheel after having received the technology for such a long time.
We may have developed some good weapons of late, but we are lagging behind.

 

[nitesh]

yusuf first of all your thinking is wrong tell me the deals where "full ToT" is given. There is nothing like "Full ToT". We have not made any operational engine or a tank do you really compare with Chinese where they just declare the weapon system as operational without proper testing and all? Where is the much touted WS-10? The tanks you are mentioning are they effective to the level IA is rejecting the Arjun? What is the servicability rates of those "operationalized" weapon systems? Please stop reading too much in to the communist propaganda.

 

[Daredevil]

Yusuf, when did we had full ToT for any thing. But we are license producing some of the A/Cs though.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

many times it is the promise of TOT and only partial transfers are made later, China has been more successful in underhanded ways of getting the technologies.

 

[shiv]

what is the level of tot on jaguar??
i believe we produce all components inhouse...cause its lines have been closed for a long time by spectat..

 

[Yusuf]

Well license produce means that the foreign source gives you the technical know how on how to go about things to produce the system. So cant our technicians and scientists learn from that?

 

[LETHALFORCE]

let's take a plane all things can be agreed to be TOT and one exception like an engine or radar can blow the whole thing, any excuse can be given by the seller oh it is made elsewhere so we can't transfer it etc... a lot of this can be blamed on the government for rushing the deals for their own greed and by the seller for waving the carrot to bait the buyers, but full and complete details need to be known before the purchase, something simple as setting up a special team before purchase to evaluate complete details would do the trick.

 

[Daredevil]

Well license produce means that the foreign source gives you the technical know how on how to go about things to produce the system. So cant our technicians and scientists learn from that?

Even in license production we don't get to learn everything. It is more of assembly of imported parts rather than manufacturing and assembling each and every part. Take Su30MKI itself, we still get engines from Russia and we get avionics for it from France and Israel.

 

[Yusuf]

Weren't the engines for the MiG 21 assembled in India?
My basic question is why haven't we even attempted to clone or use the experience we have gathered over the years to have a much more advanced military equipment manufacturing capability.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Weren't the engines for the MiG 21 assembled in India?
My basic question is why haven't we even attempted to clone or use the experience we have gathered over the years to have a much more advanced military equipment manufacturing capability.

Yusuf I have wondered the same thing for years???

 

[Yusuf]

Join the boat mate. Hope others have some answers.

 

[nitesh]

To yusuf and lethalforce

The main part of production is the metallurgy and precision equipments like CNC machines. Adcanced CNC machines are not allowed to be imported in india because of dual use nature. The advanced metallurgy know how is also not given because we can use them in other places.Whereas China does not faces such restrictions. But still they are not able to come up with a working engine. This is where the nuclear deal comes in to picture we will be relieved from lot of restrictions. Normally in the name of ToT wqe just get the finished part and use the screw driver technology to assemble them (technician's job). Remember we have invented the high strength steel for building our ships. Because this was not transferred even by Russia they were ready to export the finished steel to us. Remember the super computer saga We should be proud off our labs who have achieved so much in spite of so many restrictions imposed on them. Hope this clarifies to some extent.

 

[Vinod2070]

^^ Agree, the main issue is the metallurgy. Also TOT does not include the detailed design aspects of the critical components.

I still think that the public sector units have done a poor job of making good of what we got. The work culture is really poor. Most of the time, even proper translation of the detailed drawings from Russian is not done.

The responsibilities are poorly defined, people don't take responsibility or leadership and those who do face many roadblocks.

The pathetic public sector work culture can be blamed for why we are still lagging.

 

[JayChennai]

Because ToT means nothing. Also our babus dont want us to stop buying from outside because then, no tenders that means no commissions

 

[Agantrope]

Because ToT means nothing. Also our babus dont want us to stop buying from outside because then, no tenders that means no commissions

There may be a truth in that, but i disagree this.

First we dont have world class infratructure (i saw a guy in HAL using screw driver to tight a nut in Tejas instead of gas tightener )
We have a large pool of manpower, but we lag the skilled manpower, this is because of 2 reasons 1) Red tapism 2) Attractive pay abroad; but that was overcome now-a-days i hope
Metallurgy where we lag, but that too we are filling the gap faster than ever
Babus and Netas were sleeping as they had a trusted ally Late Mr.Soviet

 

[bengalraider]

We are lacking because of one main reason" A lack of accountability at all levels in the government military-industrial complex right from the Honble Defence ministers(previous, i will not comment on current) to the lowly technician on meeting targets and quality standards while absorbing ToT technology into the work stream, the union culture and sarkari mindset does not help either.

 

[gogbot]

Simply put

The problem is institutional, not a lack of capabilities.

old internal power politics and culture are still rampant in all government run organizations.

This culture has not changed for many decades. While the sporadic bursts of success in the country have boosted our capabilities over the years, The lack of any political will in middle management positions,has prevented any initiatives taken by the few enlighten higher ups, from having any game changing effect on the ground. As a result, we have never been able to take full advantage of our capabilities or successfully address our many problems.

By no means is any system or institution around the world perfect, but ours is substantially more inefficient compared to many. Resulting in a lot of wasted potential.

There are a laundry list of issues to resolved, to improve efficiency. No one administration can simply clean house and fix everything, They may never be fixed to the level we want them to be at.

Its all politics.
The "China threat" and "Mumbai style attacks " phenomenon in the media , have put the political light on defense and homeland security. So for now at least there is enough political will to keep the cogs turning. Only time can tell what from here on out.

 

[no smoking]

To yusuf and lethalforce

The main part of production is the metallurgy and precision equipments like CNC machines. Adcanced CNC machines are not allowed to be imported in india because of dual use nature. The advanced metallurgy know how is also not given because we can use them in other places.Whereas China does not faces such restrictions. But still they are not able to come up with a working engine. This is where the nuclear deal comes in to picture we will be relieved from lot of restrictions. Normally in the name of ToT wqe just get the finished part and use the screw driver technology to assemble them (technician's job). Remember we have invented the high strength steel for building our ships. Because this was not transferred even by Russia they were ready to export the finished steel to us. Remember the super computer saga We should be proud off our labs who have achieved so much in spite of so many restrictions imposed on them. Hope this clarifies to some extent.

Please tell me which country is exporting the advanced CNC machines to China? The fact is that China is imposed with even stricter restriction on these tech. Remeber that India is far more lovely than china in the westners' eyes.
The only reasons that China is doing better than india are 2:
1. China has learned from western countries to steal or rob any useful things for its development: centuries ago it was gold ship from south america, today it is high tech.
2. China can afford to throw more money into tech development.

 

[nitesh]

Please tell me which country is exporting the advanced CNC machines to China? The fact is that China is imposed with even stricter restriction on these tech. Remeber that India is far more lovely than china in the westners' eyes.
The only reasons that China is doing better than india are 2:
1. China has learned from western countries to steal or rob any useful things for its development: centuries ago it was gold ship from south america, today it is high tech.
2. China can afford to throw more money into tech development.

Where in my posts I mentioned that China import the stuff? I merely stated China does not faces restriction

 

[Sridhar]

Any body here beleive any country including india will part teachnology of decades of hard work and hundreds of billions of worth for few billions in the name of TOT and see them as competitors in future ? I am not .