After Sukhoi 'mistake', India to go for Russian 5th-generation fighter only on full-tech transfer pa

lcafanboy

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After Sukhoi 'mistake', India to go for Russian 5th-generation fighter only on full-tech transfer pact

File photo shows aircraft Sukhoi at Aero India 2017
HIGHLIGHTS

  • India will ink final R&D contract for the FGFA with Russia only if there is full-scale transfer of technology.
  • Decision has been taken in order to "not repeat the mistakes" of the entire Sukhoi-30MKI jet acquisition programme.
  • IAF has been unhappy with Sukhoi because the jet lacks proper stealth.



NEW DELHI: India will go in for the multi-billion dollar joint development and production of a fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) with Russia only if there is full-scale transfer of technology as well as "benefits" for the indigenous effort to build a futuristic stealth fighter.

Defence ministry sources say this decision has been taken at the "highest levels" in order to "not repeat the mistakes" of the entire Sukhoi-30MKI jet acquisition programme from Russia, which cost India Rs 55,717 crore without any tangible help in developing indigenous fighter-manufacturing capabilities.



"Though bulk of the 272 Sukhois (240 inducted till now) contracted from Russia have been made by Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL), they have been basically assembled here with imported knocked-down kits. HAL still cannot manufacture the Sukhois on its own," said a source. A HAL-made Sukhoi (around Rs 450 crore) also costs Rs 100 crore more than the price of the same jet imported from Russia.




So, despite Russian pressure to ink the long-pending final R&D contract for the FGFA, India now wants to know whether it will get good value for the estimated $25 billion it will spend to induct 127 of these single-seat jets. The two countries, incidentally, had inked the FGFA inter-governmental agreement way back in 2007, which was followed by a $295 million preliminary design contract in 2010 before the negotiations stalled.


India has now laid down two essential prerequisites for the FGFA project, apart from examining its entire cost-effectiveness. One, there should be extensive technology transfer, including the "source codes", to ensure India can in the future upgrade the fighter with integration of new weapons on its own. Two, it should directly help the indigenous FGFA project called the advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA), the preliminary design work for which is now under way, as was earlier reported by TOI.


"This is mandatory. A high-level committee headed by an Air Marshal from IAF, which includes an IIT Kanpur professor and former chiefs of HAL and National Aerospace Laboratories, is examining all these aspects. The government will take a call after the report is submitted in April," said the source. A swing-role FGFA basically combines advanced stealth, supercruise capability (achieving supersonic cruise speeds without use of afterburners), super-maneuverability, data fusion and multi-sensor integration on a single fighter.


But IAF has been unhappy with the Russian FGFA called Sukhoi T-50 or PAK-FA because the jet lacks proper stealth and its engine does not have "enough thrust", which are among 43 critical modifications or shortcomings it pointed out earlier.

Russia, however, is now promising the Indian FGFA or the "perspective multi-role fighter" will be quite different from the Sukhoi T-50, with more powerful engines and other capabilities. Under the main R&D contract, India and Russia are supposed to contribute $4 billion each for prototype development, testing and infrastructure build-up.Deliveries of the fighters, which will cost extra, were earlier supposed to begin 94 months after it was inked.


http://m.timesofindia.com/india/aft...h-full-tech-transfer/articleshow/57546519.cms
 

uoftotaku

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I say dump the FGFA, focus on Super-30 upgrade for short term...for AMCA collaborate full scale with either KAI (Korea) or MHI (Japan) who are both in 1st stages of their own AMCA class projects OR go all in with Dassault who have already got a 2030+ 5gen Rafale replacement on paper
 

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uoftotaku

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WTF? If it costs Rs100 crore more per aircraft manufactured by HAL, then why not import directly from Russia? Or am I missing something here?:confused1: If not, then we must be dumb! :doh:
2 reasons for higher price

- The contract forces HAL to import basic raw materials from Russian OEM. For eg, titanium blocks are brought in and then have to be machined down in India into various parts. This obviously adds cost
- MKI has a LOT of French and Israeli sub-systems as well as several Indian made components. Foreign system costs are added, plus there is the not in-significant cost of integrating and testing all the various disparate systems which are rolled into the final bill for each aircraft
 

square

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just get the rafale thing done !!!
 

EXPERT

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I say dump the FGFA, focus on Super-30 upgrade for short term...for AMCA collaborate full scale with either KAI (Korea) or MHI (Japan) who are both in 1st stages of their own AMCA class projects OR go all in with Dassault who have already got a 2030+ 5gen Rafale replacement on paper
These are just fantasies of people, collaborating with japan and south-korea for a defense project itself is a joke..
DRDO, HAL, ADA which are not even capable of manufacturing a fully capable 4+ generation aircraft and you are talking about AMCA. Dude we need to think seriously before moving out of FGFA..
You dont have engines in option( At last Russian or American), No stealth technology,
Our Avionics, Electronic Warfare suits, missiles, will come from france and israel.. then what are we doing?
Cut this crap and focus on FGFA, deal with russians properly and make them accountable with more sharing of technology and better engine.
 

Bornubus

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No more double crossing by cunning Russians. Also, they didn't transfered the BM 30 Smerch and T 90 Barrel tech as agreed upon. India is still buying obsolete Tank Ammo from Russian from late 1980s era 3BM 42 (Mango) at higher Price and it's not even good enough for modern day Tank Armor



And whatever little TOT they gave was in Russian Language.
 

Filtercoffee

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I hope you two are right since i think we waited for the world for stealth and engine tech to catch up and look bakward.
 

Hemu Vikram Aditya

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These are just fantasies of people, collaborating with japan and south-korea for a defense project itself is a joke..
DRDO, HAL, ADA which are not even capable of manufacturing a fully capable 4+ generation aircraft and you are talking about AMCA. Dude we need to think seriously before moving out of FGFA..
You dont have engines in option( At last Russian or American), No stealth technology,
Our Avionics, Electronic Warfare suits, missiles, will come from france and israel.. then what are we doing?
Cut this crap and focus on FGFA, deal with russians properly and make them accountable with more sharing of technology and better engine.
We are working On our own Engine and there was a post from Indx tech style about our own Ew Suite and we also made our Own AESA Radar and Tejas is Actually Good I mean it has Some 5th Gen features as well I mean it has composites which makes it stealthy somewhat and then Tejas if equipped with our own Great AESA Radar And our own Great Kaveri Engine It would be World Class fighter ( Gonna Happen Shortly Bro)
And after Nda Came all of the TOT deals are working I mean Snecma working with us and all but now Russians cannot bribe our people like they did before so have a hope for them bro.
 

Tarun Kumar

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I say cancel FGFA, buy 50-60 T50 or Rafale at 6 billion USD and for god sake spend money on making AMCA a reality with French engines.With AMCA we will be free from clutches of arms dealers from US and Russia. Over time our entire airforce can consist of AMCA for Air Superiority and Ghatak for A to G roles. If we loose 5th gen opportunity to make our own aircraft in form of AMCA, we will never make one.
 

Tarun Kumar

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And please take HAL out of AMCA for good. We need pvt players like TAS or RDAG to work on this project.
 
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After Sukhoi 'mistake', India to go for Russian 5th-generation fighter only on full-tech transfer pact

File photo shows aircraft Sukhoi at Aero India 2017
HIGHLIGHTS
  • India will ink final R&D contract for the FGFA with Russia only if there is full-scale transfer of technology.
  • Decision has been taken in order to "not repeat the mistakes" of the entire Sukhoi-30MKI jet acquisition programme.
  • IAF has been unhappy with Sukhoi because the jet lacks proper stealth.



NEW DELHI: India will go in for the multi-billion dollar joint development and production of a fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) with Russia only if there is full-scale transfer of technology as well as "benefits" for the indigenous effort to build a futuristic stealth fighter.


Defence ministry sources say this decision has been taken at the "highest levels" in order to "not repeat the mistakes" of the entire Sukhoi-30MKI jet acquisition programme from Russia, which cost India Rs 55,717 crore without any tangible help in developing indigenous fighter-manufacturing capabilities.


"Though bulk of the 272 Sukhois (240 inducted till now) contracted from Russia have been made by Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL), they have been basically assembled here with imported knocked-down kits. HAL still cannot manufacture the Sukhois on its own," said a source. A HAL-made Sukhoi (around Rs 450 crore) also costs Rs 100 crore more than the price of the same jet imported from Russia.




So, despite Russian pressure to ink the long-pending final R&D contract for the FGFA, India now wants to know whether it will get good value for the estimated $25 billion it will spend to induct 127 of these single-seat jets. The two countries, incidentally, had inked the FGFA inter-governmental agreement way back in 2007, which was followed by a $295 million preliminary design contract in 2010 before the negotiations stalled.


India has now laid down two essential prerequisites for the FGFA project, apart from examining its entire cost-effectiveness. One, there should be extensive technology transfer, including the "source codes", to ensure India can in the future upgrade the fighter with integration of new weapons on its own. Two, it should directly help the indigenous FGFA project called the advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA), the preliminary design work for which is now under way, as was earlier reported by TOI.


"This is mandatory. A high-level committee headed by an Air Marshal from IAF, which includes an IIT Kanpur professor and former chiefs of HAL and National Aerospace Laboratories, is examining all these aspects. The government will take a call after the report is submitted in April," said the source. A swing-role FGFA basically combines advanced stealth, supercruise capability (achieving supersonic cruise speeds without use of afterburners), super-maneuverability, data fusion and multi-sensor integration on a single fighter.


But IAF has been unhappy with the Russian FGFA called Sukhoi T-50 or PAK-FA because the jet lacks proper stealth and its engine does not have "enough thrust", which are among 43 critical modifications or shortcomings it pointed out earlier.

Russia, however, is now promising the Indian FGFA or the "perspective multi-role fighter" will be quite different from the Sukhoi T-50, with more powerful engines and other capabilities. Under the main R&D contract, India and Russia are supposed to contribute $4 billion each for prototype development, testing and infrastructure build-up.Deliveries of the fighters, which will cost extra, were earlier supposed to begin 94 months after it was inked.


http://m.timesofindia.com/india/aft...h-full-tech-transfer/articleshow/57546519.cms
Seems that government has tracked my plea in this thread!:india:
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...why-india-should-dump-the-fgfa-project.78554/
And please take HAL out of AMCA for good. We need pvt players like TAS or RDAG to work on this project.
????:crazy:
Private sector is nothing against government when comes to technology.

HAL's problem is management & manufacturing capacity, not technology.

Regarding Tejas, it was India's first fighter & enough experience has been gained from it.

Even earlier cases from ships, helicopters to missiles & space launch vehicles, India takes decades to breakthrough in maiden attempt then builds up a series in further ones.

AMCA won't be delayed that much of Tejas. HAL baiters gonna bait.

If no. Go and ask private sector that they could even develop a third generation plane without less than 70% technological input from government! (And private sector can't even dream to develop one itself). You will know the value of HAL.:dude:
 

Metty

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mistake??????????????????????//

what mistake????

choice of Su 30 mki is not mistake....

i think its better than refel etoo...

because which rafele chhos is not advansed...
 
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mistake??????????????????????//

what mistake????

choice of Su 30 mki is not mistake....

i think its better than refel etoo...

because which rafele chhos is not advansed...
We didn't get the ToT even after spending too much. That was the mistake.
 

lcafanboy

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India's Demand for Russia to Transfer Tech on PAK FA: Practical or Preposterous?


Sources from the Indian Defense Ministry have told The Times of India that Delhi would participate in the joint development of a new PAK FA-derived fifth gen fighter in cooperation with Russia only if the Russian side included full-scale technology transfer as part of the deal. Russian experts are divided over the implications of this ultimatum.
Only last month, Vladimir Drozhzhov, deputy director of Russia's Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation, the agency charged with regulating military-technical cooperation with other countries, told Sputnik that Russia and India had agreed on a draft contract for the joint development of a new fifth-generation aircraft, the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) derived from Russia's Sukhoi T-50 (PAK FA) stealth multirole fighter.

However, on Thursday, the Times of India reported, citing Defense Ministry sources, that Delhi is conditioning the signing of such a deal with Russia on a full-scale transfer of technology, including the fighter's source codes. In addition, the Indian side is demanding that the FGFA project should directly aid a separate program, India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) project, as well.

"This is mandatory. A high-level committee headed by an Air Marshal from the Indian Air Force, which includes an Indian Institute of Technology-Kanpur professor and former chiefs of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and National Aerospace Laboratories, is examining all these aspects," a source told the newspaper. "The government will take a call after the report is submitted in April," the source added.

The source complained that Sukhoi's previous contract with Hindustan Aeronautics – involving the delivery of 272 Su-30MKI twinjet multirole air superiority fighters, did not provide for technology transfer; Delhi considers this to have been a miscalculation.

The FGFA project is part of the Make in India initiative launched by Prime Minister Narendra Modi in 2014. Under the deal, Russia's Sukhoi Company and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited would develop an advanced derivative of the T-50 (PAK FA) fifth generation fighter. The multi-billion dollar project is set to include 43 improvements over the T-50, in areas including engine thrust, stealth capabilities, advanced sensors and onboard avionics, as well as supercruise (sustained supersonic flight) capability. Last year, the two countries agreed to commit $4 billion each to R&D, prototype development, testing and infrastructure for the 127 fighters which India expects to cost a total of $25 billion.

Russian experts are divided over the implications of Delhi's ultimatum.

Speaking to Radio Sputnik, Col. (ret) Andrei Golovatyuk, military observer and senior member of the Russian Officers Union, explained that the issue of technology transfer in general is an extremely sensitive one.

"By transferring our technology, we are creating the conditions in the recipient country to stop purchasing our military equipment over the next 10-15 years, and to use our technology to develop its own instead," the officer said. "This is about the same thing that happened with China in the past. In the 1950s and 1960s, we gave them a number of military technologies, and subsequently Beijing made a huge step forward in the development of weapons and military equipment."

"Something similar could now happen with India," Golovatyuk said. "Of course, this is a very delicate issue – both from the diplomatic and the military-technical perspective. If these are today's technologies, and we have next generation technologies in the wings, then it may be advisable to consider their transfer." Otherwise, the logic is that perhaps Moscow should hold off making the transfer.

The issue is further complicated, the expert noted, by the fact that military-technical cooperation with India is very important for Russia. "There is a saying: 'nature abhors a vacuum'. If we were to 'leave' India, the vacuum would immediately be occupied by the Americans, the Germans, the British or the Chinese, who are moving forward in leaps and bounds toward developing their own military equipment."

"India," Golovatyuk stressed, "occupies one of the leading positions in the purchase of Russian arms and military equipment, and we cannot lose this market. Therefore, we should weigh everything very carefully when making a decision."

For his part, prominent Russian military observer Viktor Litovkin is convinced that Delhi's ultimatum is just a bargaining tactic. India, he noted, "simply doesn't want to pay for a fifth-generation aircraft, and is coming up with all sorts of excuses. In fact, they are demanding that Russia give them all the technology for the plane, which can then be built in India's own plants. That is, they want ultra-modern equipment and technology for a hill of beans."

Litovkin stressed that Sukhoi need not concern themselves too much with the Indian side's demands, pointing out that Russia's Indian partners have always held to the tactic of bargaining for the lowest-possible price.

"Some time ago, they bought our aircraft carrier [the Baku, now known as the INS Vikramaditya] for the price of scrap metal," the expert recalled. They wanted us to make it into a super battle-ready warship. We explained that an aircraft carrier is an expensive combat system, and that it was impossible to acquire it for a red cent. They made a lot of noise about it, but ultimately ended up paying."

Ultimately, Litovkin too said that troubles or not, cooperation with India brings out the best in Russian designers. "In general, we should be forthcoming, listen to their complaints, but calmly proceed to do our work," the expert noted. "Yes, on the other hand, they can be cranky, but on the other hand, it's good for us: they force us to bustle about, to think about how to fulfill the tasks that they set for us."

"Everything will turn out ok," the observer emphasized. "We will make them a fifth generation plane. They just need to pay."

Finally, Mikhail Alexandrov, a senior expert at the Center for Military-Political Studies at the Moscow State Institute of International Relations, pointed out that full-scale technology transfer is outside the practice of any country engaged in the creation of advanced weaponry.

"No state engages in the export of cutting edge weapons systems– especially systems which are still under development. And no one ever sells the technology behind these systems – it simply isn't done," the expert stressed.

Moscow, Alexandrov noted, must clearly and calmly emphasize to its Indian partners "that there are no other countries – the French or the Americans included, willing to share their tech and the intricacies of their aircraft [with India]. I think it's to Delhi's advantage to deal with Russia as things are. We offer them more than other countries, including participation in joint projects, which offers a chance to learn, plus the opportunity to assemble the planes themselves in Indian plants. I do not believe it is worth going beyond that."
https://sputniknews.com/military/201703101051455656-russian-indian-fifth-gen-fighter-dispute/
 

Compersion

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PRC still buys from Russia.

PRC and USA did tango in 1970s ++

India won't copy and not acknowledge it is about trust.

Copy and paste is not everything.

Foreign relations.

Su30MKI made Russia look good.

The above applies not only for India - Russia . But Russia remembers 1970s and PRC ... and it knows India is not PRC .
 

smestarz

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When Su-30 MKI was purchased, India did not really want to have ToT.
Technically how strong and demanding are we with ToT? We purchased T-90 and we did not take the SHTORA counter system which is why T-90 had good reputation. The Congress led govt did not want ToT they just wanted to import and keep receiving kickbacks and that was good with it. The strong ideas of ToT etc started after the MMRCA was requested. Also if you compare Rafale vs su-30 MKI, Su-30 MKI has better performance than Rafale, Rafale is good Strike plane, the Russians as per their doctrine produced Su-34 Fullback as their Strike plane which is more powerful and carries more warload at better ranges.
Now. It was upto the IAF how they wanted to tailor their Su-30 MKI, and yet they did not feel the need to put MAWS. That shows the lack of IAF vision. Further the IAF always complained about the low availability of spares, and yet they did nothing to have better spare management. After Parrikar was appointed the DM and he put forth new idas, all of a sudden the availability rate of Su-30 MKI rose from 45% to almost 60%. So surely IAF did not take the initiative to change these state of affairs or were the top brass happy to let it be?

Now having seen what levels IAF brass can stoop, the defence minister deemed to make his responsibility to ensure that the ordering of spares and availability is faster and more or less automated .

With the Rafale discussion, DM had ensured that Dassault is responsible for each plane ordered and thus getting better value for money. And now with PAKFA they will come with both key points, ToT as well as spares and maintenance. So it is not that India was fooled, but it was our politicians who were filling their pockets

We didn't get the ToT even after spending too much. That was the mistake.
 

TPFscopes

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Technically how strong and demanding are we with ToT? We purchased T-90 and we did not take the SHTORA counter system which is why T-90 had good reputation.
SHTORA is not as good as TROPHY in reference to killing probability.
Also SHTORA is comparatively not a good choice.
In near future, you will find ToT deal for TROPHY or indo-israel joint venture for development of APS system.
 

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