After M777 all eyes on Kalyani group ultra-light howitzers

[cobra commando]

:ranger: Pitcher abhi baaki hai ??
BAE Systems looks to revive contract for supply of 145 guns to India - The Economic Times

 

[Twinblade]

As of now, A single M777 cost 30 crores a piece without talking the spare and ammunition also the tow vehicle ..

Dhanush on other hand cost just 14 crores a piece, The point is the cost escalation is so high, Its better to invest in a design which can be made independently in India with Indian material and brain ..

Kalyani group is not the designer, the designer is the Mandus group. Kalyani is just an investor in their design and Indian production partner. The 105 mm vehicle mounted gun they presented was just fitting 105 mm IFG with Mandus' soft recoil system developed for their 105 mm hawkeye system. The 155mm ULH project is and independent project by the Mandus group.
Mandus Group: News
Kalyani group's gun is as indigenous as the Bharat-155 gun they presented (licensed ATMOS/ATHOS). Be rest assured, Chacha Shyam will retain all design rights to this gun as well as they do with BAE M-777.

 

[Prashant12]

Bharat Forge developed Bharat 52 artillery system based GHN-45, and now they have upgraded indigenously 155-52 standard.

 

[Twinblade]

Bharat Forge developed Bharat 52 artillery system based GHN-45, and now they have upgraded indigenously 155-52 standard.

Wrong. Soltam made ATHOS/ATMOS in 52 caliber itself. Kalyani simply changed the label and called it indigenous.

 

[Prashant12]

Wrong. Soltam made ATHOS/ATMOS in 52 caliber itself. Kalyani simply changed the label and called it indigenous.

See the difference between ATMOS & Bharat-52

ATHOS is a truck mounted gun.

Picture of ATMOS 52
m1.behance.net/rendition/modules/86200345/disp/6550e7e8cf79dcc2957bba1d31261b96.JPG

Picture of Bharat-52
defense-update.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/bharat52_700.jpg

Bharat-52
Bharat Forge has built its own gun, the Bharat-52, displayed at the DefExpo. The company imported an entire gun, the GHN-45 to absorb technology; while simultaneously buying and importing an entire production line from RUAG of Switzerland.
Link:
business-standard.com/article/economy-policy/indian-artillery-guns-make-a-splash-at-defexpo-114020800949_1.html

Note: I am unable to post links.

So just add http to the image links, and see the difference!.

 

[Twinblade]

See the difference between ATMOS & Bharat-52
ATHOS is a truck mounted gun.

Wrong. ATHOS is towed, ATMOS is truck mounted. ATHOS is towed version of ATMOS. Soltam is Kalyani's partner in artillery development. Kalyani is also peddling 155/45 upgrade of M-46 guns with Soltam.

Picture of ATMOS 52
m1.behance.net/rendition/modules/86200345/disp/6550e7e8cf79dcc2957bba1d31261b96.JPG

That is not ATHOS 2052, from which Bharat-52 is derived. This is ATHOS 2052,

the only difference the Kalyani gun has is with the muzzle brake and recoil, rest everything comes from Soltam.

 

[Prashant12]

Wrong. ATHOS is towed, ATMOS is truck mounted. ATHOS is towed version of ATMOS. Soltam is Kalyani's partner in artillery development. Kalyani is also peddling 155/45 upgrade of M-46 guns with Soltam.

ATMOS Stands for Autonomous Truck Mounted howitzer System

wikipedia.org/wiki/ATMOS_2000

ATHOS Stands for autonomous towed howitzer system:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soltam_Systems


Bharat forge & Elbit Systems joint venture will offer solutions in
the Artillery Guns & Mortars segment based on Elbit Systems' cutting edge
technologically advanced products operationally used worldwide, such as the ATHOS
155/52 Towed Gun System, the ATMOS 155/52 Mounted Gun System and the upgraded
130 mm M46 Gun to a 155/45 Gun (KARAN)

Link (PDF):
bharatforge.com/german/images/PDFs/press-release/2013/Bharat_Forge_Elbit_JVC.pdf

Bharat 52 is based on GC-45 howitzer
Bharat Forge,an Indian firm of Kalyani Group,has recently purchased Noricum and brought the entire manufacturing workshop to India. It has made Bharat-52, a 52 caliber variant of the 155mm howitzer to meet the Indian Army's long delayed field artillery requirement.

Link:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GC-45_howitzer

ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2012/03/defexpo-2012-kalyani-group-artillery-to.html

 

[arnabmit]

Am afraid you may be wrong here. Bharat-52 is a 155x52 gun with a home-made barrel by Bharat Forge, based on the Noricum GHN-45 155x45 technology.

The Soltam tie-up is a separate project, not related to Bharat-52.

Wrong. Soltam made ATHOS/ATMOS in 52 caliber itself. Kalyani simply changed the label and called it indigenous.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I understand that, My focus remain in numbers and cheaper unit cost compare to foreign material, The guns will be made in India with Indian raw material ..

Talking out of context, I like if this project gets a green and compete against M777 in international market, As of now there are no true competitors to M777 ..

Kalyani group is not the designer, the designer is the Mandus group. Kalyani is just an investor in their design and Indian production partner.

 

[laughingbuddha]

Indigenous....why are we so fixated with this term? Why are we so desperate to announce so? Just build.
Funny if Tata were to badge its cars as Indigenous Nano - Indigenous Indica - Indigenous Safari etc.
Imagine an SUV called Indigenous Scorpio

 

[Neeraj Mathur]

India tells US , Can't buy M777 howitzer due to Price Hike

India has told the US that in view of the price increase, it cannot go ahead with the procurement of 145 ultra-light howitzers for the Army, which plans to deploy such artillery guns in mountainous terrain.

During talks with US officials at the time of American Defence Secretary Chuck Hagel's recent visit, it was conveyed by India that it cannot go ahead with the deal due to the price hike asked for by the equipment manufacturer, Defence Ministry sources said here.

Till early 2013, the deal for the M777 howitzers was expected to cost India around ?3,600 crore but due to the delay in finalising the deal, the American side sought an increase of over ?300 crore in August last year.

The sources said the US side has conveyed that the production line of the howitzers has been closed down and India will have to pay for its reopening and the costs may escalate further if there are more delays in finalising the deal.

Under the procurement process, certain procedures have to be followed and it is difficult to justify a price hike in the middle of negotiations for the contract, they said.

Recently, Defence Minister Arun Jaitley had stated that the deal has not progressed due to issues over cost of the deal and offsets requirements.

"The case for procurement of the ULH guns through the US government has not progressed due to cost issues and because the vendor has not been able to come up with a proposal fully compliant to the offset requirements," he had said.

India tells US , Can’t buy M777 howitzer due to Price Hike | idrw.org

 

[Yatharth Singh]

India tells US , Can't buy M777 howitzer due to Price Hike

India has told the US that in view of the price increase, it cannot go ahead with the procurement of 145 ultra-light howitzers for the Army, which plans to deploy such artillery guns in mountainous terrain.

During talks with US officials at the time of American Defence Secretary Chuck Hagel's recent visit, it was conveyed by India that it cannot go ahead with the deal due to the price hike asked for by the equipment manufacturer, Defence Ministry sources said here.

Till early 2013, the deal for the M777 howitzers was expected to cost India around ?3,600 crore but due to the delay in finalising the deal, the American side sought an increase of over ?300 crore in August last year.

The sources said the US side has conveyed that the production line of the howitzers has been closed down and India will have to pay for its reopening and the costs may escalate further if there are more delays in finalising the deal.

Under the procurement process, certain procedures have to be followed and it is difficult to justify a price hike in the middle of negotiations for the contract, they said.

Recently, Defence Minister Arun Jaitley had stated that the deal has not progressed due to issues over cost of the deal and offsets requirements.

"The case for procurement of the ULH guns through the US government has not progressed due to cost issues and because the vendor has not been able to come up with a proposal fully compliant to the offset requirements," he had said.

India tells US , Can't buy M777 howitzer due to Price Hike | idrw.org

The thing I loved about it is that it was told to Hagel while he was here to promote defence collaboration.
And the reason, price hike of 300 crore.
Jaitely could have been more straight by saying we now don`t have extra penny to spend buy 'videshi' when we want to develop 'swadeshi', instead of giving such fake reasons of price hike. And it sort of seems like a sarcasm. Good work Modi.

 

[perplexed]

we should scrap such high value deals and concentrate more on kalyani group howitzers. If we have private players in the basic howitzers category then only they will be able to churn out value-added ( in this case less weight items ). The current defense acquisition guidelines are totally headless !

 

[arnabmit]

And that, my friends, is how arms get twisted.

BAE Offers Modi Made-in-India Guns for China Strike Force - Bloomberg

Alert Bharat Forge!

 

[sasi]

BAE Offers Modi Made-in-India Guns for China Strike Force | idrw.org

'make in India' or 'assemble in India' ?

 

[grampiguy]

Though BAE has made an offer to Indian government, there are other factors which go against BAE's offer:.

1. The BAE offer is only to assemble the gun in India. That is a screwdriver technology which is not needed. BAE is quite silent on exhaustive manufacture of gun components in India with local raw materials.

2. The current BAE offer is a panicked one because Bharat Forge (Kalyani Group) is completing its development of ULH gun in collaboration with another American company. This ULH gun is about to come out this year.

3. BAE knows it perfectly well that once Indian made gun is available, BAE will have zero chance to sell any gun to Indian Army. What more, Indian gun would be cheaper and a formidable competitor. SO this is a panicked but timely move to scuttle local ULH gun development in India.

4. The BAE gun would be sold through US FMS. So it will come under ITAR provisions, will be monitored by the US Pentagon and many other restrictions would be imposed on the gun's eventual existence in India. In comparison, Bharat Forge gun would be free from any restriction and a potential export product.

5. BAE will keep the IP of its ULH gun and just allow its license production. Its not ready to provide its IP and complete TOT to its previous Indian partner Mahindras or OFB for local complete manufacture. The lessons of Bofors FH77/Dhanush gun are quite vivid.

My hunch is that Indian government would wait for a while to see other competitors and their products, including Singaporean gun and Bharat Forge option. Then only a decision would come. No doubt, BAE is quite a cunning company.


BAE Systems offers to build sophisticated "ultralight" guns in India - Ajai Shukla

 

[grampiguy]

So BAE is at it again. Its almost a media campaign to get its M777 ULH contracted before things change....The most important portion in the article is the last line...



------------------------------
BAE's US arm to shift Howitzer assembly here

Ahead of US President Barack Obama's visit to India, the US arm of the London-headquartered BAE Systems has offered to transfer its entire M777 155mm/39-calibre ultra lightweight Howitzer (ULH) assembly line from the US to India to revive the stalled sale of 145 guns to the Indian Army.

The proposal had hit an impasse last year over offsets and price issues as it also involved direct import of the Howitzers from the US in a foreign military sales route (FMS) under the buy (global) category of the Indian Defense Procurement Procedure (DPP).
The new offer is in line with Prime Minister Narendra Modi's 'Make in India' initiative and will be on the agenda of delegation-level talks between the two sides. The gun has been extensively tested and evaluated in India previously. The proposal has been scrutinised in nine meetings of the Defense Acquisition Council (DAC) and eight versions of the offset proposals have been submitted to the Indian government for approval till October 2013.
.................
................

The renewed offer to shift the assembly line to India involves Transfer of Technology to a chosen local partner, Kelly said. All local players, including the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), could be considered. The technological challenge involves the use of Titanium. The FMS proposal does not envisage a joint venture, he said. Significantly, the gun barrel of the American gun cannot be made in India. This is barred by the Berry Amendment, a Congressional Act in the US.
--------------

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

so this has not been included in this round of discussion

probably not happening

 

[Zebra]

PEGASUS 155mm 39 Calibre Light Weight Howitzer : Singapore Technologies Engineering Ltd

 

[Zebra]

If BAE like then they can offer FH77 B05 L52 at fair and reasonable price to India.