ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[Vamsi]

We should negotiate a new JV for the engines that we need. Anyway because of the war, nothing is going to come from Russia. India can give enough orders to US & France so that we get the necessary JV in return. It will be very helpful in reducing our dependencies on Russian equipment & at the same time modernizing our military.

Decrease our dependence on Russia, but increase it on murica, just wow

 

[Vamsi]

 

[Raj Malhotra]

The term Gradually and 75% for DPSU means no indigenisation ever.

 

[Anandhu Krishna]

All this for basic screwdrivergiri.!? Seen 100s of ToTs. This will amount to nothing. I wonder if all these bombastic news articles are paid for, by the muricans!?

 

[blackleaf]

swarajyamag.com/defence/india-and-us-discuss-co-production-of-f-414-jet-engines-during-us-secretary-of-defence-lloyd-austins-two-day-visit

India And US Discuss Co-Production Of F-414 Jet Engines During US Secretary Of Defence Lloyd Austin's Two-Day Visit
by Ujjwal Shrotryia - Monday, June 5, 2023 03:04 PM IST

The F414-GE-100 engine.
India and the United States (US) Defence Ministers Lloyd Austin and Rajnath Singh talked about the co-production of US General Electric (GE) F-414 jet engines in India, in a highly anticipated deal which is expected to be signed when Prime Minister Modi visits the United States, this month.
The US Secretary of Defence Lloyd Austin is in India for a two-day visit.
Austin met Defence Minister Rajnath Singh where "they discussed a range of bilateral defence cooperation issues, with particular focus on identifying ways to strengthen industrial cooperation," a statement released by the Ministry of Defence (MoD) said.
The statement added, "Both sides will identify opportunities for co-development of new technologies and co-production of existing & new systems and facilitate increased collaboration between defence start-up ecosystems of the two countries".
"Delighted to meet my friend, @SecDef Austin in New Delhi. Our talks revolved around enhancing defence cooperation in several areas including convergence of strategic interests and enhanced security cooperation," the Defence Minister tweeted.
Among the various technologies that India and the United States want to co-develop and co-produce, jet engine technology is highest on the list.
Chalking out a broad strategy regarding the co-development of the GE F-414 jet engine in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is, according to various reports, highest on the agenda of Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin and Rajnath Singh.
It is reported that the transfer of technology (ToT) for jet engines was the main talking point of the National Security Advisor (NSA) Ajit Doval's talk with his American counterpart Jack Sullivan in late January this year.
The talks were about the operationalisation of US-India Initiative on Critical and Emerging technologies (iCET), under which India will manufacture F414 jet engine in India.
The US-India, iCET, was first announced by PM Modi and US President Joe Biden, in May 2022.
The General Electric (GE) F-414 jet engine is a low-bypass afterburning turbofan engines which produces a maximum thrust of 98 kN. These engines will power the 4++ generation in-development, Tejas Mk-2 fighter jet.
GE's F-404 IN20 jet engines already powers Light Combat Aircraft's (LCA) Tejas and Mk-1A variants.
According to reports, after the signing the agreement, the US government will notify US congress for approval which is expected to be passed with bi-partisan support.
"The two Ministers explored ways of building resilient supply chains," the statement said talking about the creation of shock resistant supply chains to prevent the repetition of the supply chains shocks experienced at the time of Covid.
"Senior officials from Ministry of Defence, including Chief of Defence Staff General Anil Chauhan, Defence Secretary Shri Giridhar Aramane and Secretary, Department of Defence R&D and Chairman Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) Dr Samir V Kamat," also participated in the meeting, the statement futher adds.
Turning to India's pursuit of jet engines, despite the extensive efforts over the years, the development of a suitable engine has remained a challenge.
India has been working on the development of jet engines for several decades.
Despite significant investment of time and resources in the GTX Kaveri engine development project, India has been unable to produce an engine suitable for high-performance fighter jets. The Kaveri engine was, in its development trials, only able to produce a maximum sustained wet-thrust of 80 kN, against the requirement of 90-100 kN.
However, the engines were able to reliably produce 51 kN without the use of afterburners (dry thrust), making them suitable for use in Unmanned Combat Aerial Vehicles (UCAVs).
Gas-Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), a Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO's) lab, which was the nodal agency for the GTX Kaveri project is now developing a dry variant of kaveri for application in flying-wing stealth UCAV.
Intern at Swarajya. Writes on Indian Military and Defence.

How is this deal different from what Sweden, Turkey and South Korea have? Seems like GE does local assembly in any country that orders its engines in sufficient numbers. This is being hailed as on par with the nuclear deal but to me it seems like no different from what we already have with the AL-31 engine or what GE has already done in Sweden, Turkey and South Korea.

 

[FactsPlease]

Thrill or chill, let's wait for the facts. Only 2 weeks+ to hear official .
Do hope for the best (me individually), and prepare for the worst (pray that some real sense in GoI/ADA is doing their jobs).

 

[samsaptaka]

So it is entirely possible that Washington will find that the costs of defending Taiwan will become unbearable.

Are you sure the west will want to defend Taiwan once all the Fabs have moved to US under the CHIP act ?

#DRDO could uprate the Dry Kaveri Engine to 60 KN once the certification of the existing Dry Kaveri is completed.

DRDO could have done many things to the Kaveri, but did not and will not unless they get lots of funding and testing infra like FTB and other things. No money no end product. GoI does not get it..

 

[samsaptaka]

Do the GE engines F404/414 have a 'kill switch' ? If we fight a war against the wishes of The Empire , does the empire have the capability to strike back via the 'kill switch' and disable it so that none of our Tejas jets can fly ? History shows it does have such capabilities, but for now we should go with this engine and not derail the Tejas project, parallely develop Kaveri and then disassociate with GE once Kaveri is mature. Day dreaming I am ....

 

[skunk works]

How is this deal different from what Sweden, Turkey and South Korea have? Seems like GE does local assembly in any country that orders its engines in sufficient numbers. This is being hailed as on par with the nuclear deal but to me it seems like no different from what we already have with the AL-31 engine or what GE has already done in Sweden, Turkey and South Korea.

No this is exactly like the nuclear deal: lots of noise but nothing gets done.
In fact it will be better than the nuclear deal- atleast something will get built, even if with screwdrivergiri.

 

[samsaptaka]

US-India jet engine deal: A new era for indigenous defence tech?

Typical clueless media, two contradictory statements in one, how can GE engine screwdriver giri manufacturing be 'indigenous' tech ?

 

[karn]

No this is exactly like the nuclear deal: lots of noise but nothing gets done.
In fact it will be better than the nuclear deal- atleast something will get built, even if with screwdrivergiri.

Nuclear deal was pretty significant politically. Besides other things it allows us to import reactor grade uranium and use locally produced uranium for military uses .. The current expansion in local and russian reactors is because of that deal.

 

[skunk works]

Typical clueless media, two contradictory statements in one, how can GE engine screwdriver giri manufacturing be 'indigenous' tech ?

Also they will add it under 'indigenous defense production' and will harp next year on how India is the 'second largest defense producer saar'

 

[samsaptaka]

All this for basic screwdrivergiri.!? Seen 100s of ToTs. This will amount to nothing. I wonder if all these bombastic news articles are paid for, by the muricans!?

While I agree with your sentiment, I think for now we should de-link the engine and Tejas MK2 projects.
As far as I am concerned get the engine from anywhere but we should not derail and shut down MK2.
For that will be the final nail in the indigineous jet fighter manufacturing MIC, and we will never ever be a major power without that. We should produce atleast 500 Tejas, and not allow dalals and corrupt top brass + chandigarh lobby to sabotage the Tejas line at any cost. Kaveri jet engine dev should be funded massively and parallely till it finally replaces GE engines. This is the way I hope to see things shaping up.

 

[MirageBlue]

How is this deal different from what Sweden, Turkey and South Korea have? Seems like GE does local assembly in any country that orders its engines in sufficient numbers. This is being hailed as on par with the nuclear deal but to me it seems like no different from what we already have with the AL-31 engine or what GE has already done in Sweden, Turkey and South Korea.

GE did manufacture the F-404 in Sweden but that was since Volvo was building parts for the customized RM-12 derived from the F-404. I don't think they're doing so for the F-414 any more. In Turkey they were assembling the F110 engines locally.
For South Korea, Hanwha Techwin has an agreement to build the F-414 in collaboration with GE.

https://www.hanwha.com/en/news_and_...ufacture-f414-engines-for-kf-x-aircrafts.html

[July 12, 2016] On July 12, the Hanwha Techwin CEO of Aerospace and Defense Business Group Shin Hyun-Woo signed a technical collaboration agreement with the GE Aviation's Military Systems Operation CEO Jean M. Lydon-Rodgers at the Farnborough International Airshow, UK, to domestically manufacture the engine parts that will power the Korean Fighter Experimental (KF-X) aircraft.

Under the agreement, Hanwha Techwin will lead the integration and installation of the engine on the KF-X as well as the local assembly of the engines and manufacture of key parts. Hanwha Techwin will also support the flight testing during the engine system development and build a comprehensive military support system for the fighter jet operations.

..

So yes, when the deal size is few hundred engines, they do seem to be amenable to having local assembly of their engines.

 

[MirageBlue]

All this for basic screwdrivergiri.!? Seen 100s of ToTs. This will amount to nothing. I wonder if all these bombastic news articles are paid for, by the muricans!?

ToT amounts to being able to repair, overhaul and maintain hundreds of engines. There may be some technologies that HAL Engine Division will be able to master with this deal that will help with the future AMCA 110 kN engine development program.

There is a reason why HAL is the only other OEM in the world that can do full MRO of Su-30MKI and its engines. That was due to the level of ToT that the MKI deal involved along with local assembly and manufacture.

 

[Arpuster]

May b this deal is to create a JV company like Brahmos Aerospace. Just like brahmos missile was subsequently indigenised and improved in India likewise will be done with F 414. Further, just as Brahmos Aerospace is working on future variants like brahmos NG & brahmos 2k, similarly future variants of F 414 may be developed in India for upcoming projects. Like 110-130 kN version for AMCA mk2. Ofcourse like in brahmos missile some critical parts will have to be kept sourced from OEM but IP may be granted to JV company.

 

[Tejbrahmastra]

May b this deal is to create a JV company like Brahmos Aerospace. Just like brahmos missile was subsequently indigenised and improved in India likewise will be done with F 414. Further, just as Brahmos Aerospace is working on future variants like brahmos NG & brahmos 2k, similarly future variants of F 414 may be developed in India for upcoming projects. Like 110-130 kN version for AMCA mk2. Ofcourse like in brahmos missile some critical parts will have to be kept sourced from OEM but IP may be granted to JV company.

And yet even after 2 decades, Brahmos Aerospace cannot produce their own Brahmos-2. They are waiting for Zirocon tech to copy. No RnD happens in Indian industries!!

 

[Azaad]

And yet even after 2 decades, Brahmos Aerospace cannot produce their own Brahmos-2. They are waiting for Zirocon tech to copy. No RnD happens in Indian industries!!

Not really. Both DRDO & ISRO have undertaken programs w.r.t Hypersonics . Both are expected to yield adequate results later this decade at precisely the same time Russia promised to share ToT of the Zircon.

Moreover we never undertook indigenous development of a RAMJET engine to honour our agreement on the Brahmos with Moscow. Had we done so a decade ago much like how the Chinese operate we'd have had an indigenous RAMJET engine by now.

 

[Arpuster]

And yet even after 2 decades, Brahmos Aerospace cannot produce their own Brahmos-2. They are waiting for Zirocon tech to copy. No RnD happens in Indian industries!!

Brahmos-2 will not copy zircon. It is a joint venture development so it will get tech from both DRDO as well as NPOM. Obviously NPOM part of tech will be derived from Zircon but DRDO part will be indigenously and separately developed. HCM is a difficult tech and none has mastered it yet. Even russia hasnt used it in ukraine war.

 

[MonaLazy]

The U.S. Should Transfer Advanced Jet Engine Technology to India to Support a Strong Partner in Countering China

The Biden Administration recently announced that it would review a request by the Indian government to transfer technology from one of America’s most advanced fighter engines—General Electric’s F414—to India. The deal would bolster India’s capacity to field indigenously produced fighters with...

www.heritage.org