ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[Samej Jangir]

Al 31 doesn't need to be used for long to have problems it doesn't have as many flying hours either in comparison to GE engines either.

This is your fantasy without basis. How many Russian Sukhoi 30s have crashed due to engine?

We went for GE engines long before UPA existed . So just don't throw anything out of nowhere.

Really? India read planning on Kaveri engine till 2007 with an MToW of 11.5 tons to replace Mig21. Last I remember 2007 was UPA era.

Tejas was built around GE engine and we wanted to built something as efficient as that

Hahahaha! Is this a joke? The transition to f404 was mdhe in 2007-8 and trust was redesigned significantly to make it bigger which wasted significant time. Tejas with MToW 11.5-12tons would have been flying by 2015 if the redesign hadn't been done. The original Tejas design was smaller but the experience that would have been obtained by having a flying plane was significant. It is likely that UPA wanted to sabotage Indian defence and died down Tejas.

Rd 33 series engines fuel efficiency and smoke is world renowned .

The latest Rd33 mk3 had smoke reduced. Nevertheless, I won't claim that it is the best engine out there as it is a significantly older design and has its deficiency. However, it is reasonably reliable and is better than F404 to be used in Tejas if manufactured in India.

We have replaced AL 31 engine parts with Indian ? Waah waah .

Wah! You live in your fantasy world. India did develop some parts of Al31F indigenously over time to replace Russian imports. Russia did not trouble India by imposing any restriction on substitution of parts.

Al 41 TOT ? They are asking for more money and new contract for production while it is simply an uprated version of AL 31 . That's why we aren't opting for it. Kuch bhi ??

Money? Hohoho! Technology is not bought with money. It is given only in exchange for equivalent technology or extremely critical goods. Russia may sell Al41 but will not allow India to indigenise it.

They bought it as they needed a conventional light trainer with light air defence capability, cheaper to operate and something that they can trust with services . T50 is everything of that which Tejas isn't right now

Tejas is cheaper than T50 and is much better with no crashes. T50 is significantly inferior in its fighting capabilities. The deal was purely political due to USA pressure to buy T50 which has significant USS hand.

Rafale is technically better and provide us more sovereign freedom in comparison to F-16. Also F-16 is in use by Porks and we didn't wanted to have the same after spending decades practicing to fight against it.

Used by porkis is a problem? How so? Rafale is technically better but needs higher fuel and higher maintenance due to having 2 engines. The actual reason for jot buying F16 is political.

If Russian engines were that good we would have gone for that... Not juggle around with others. It's not a piece of cake where you can have chocolate and pineapple both

Just like we would have bought Russian Il76 planes instead if C130 or fitted AWACS on Russian planes instead of Western ones. Russian transport planes have been used by India for over 60 yesrs with very little complaints. There was no reason to buy western transport planes in such cases. Also, buying USA helicopters instead of Russian is also not based on performance.

 

[MonaLazy]

https://www.financialexpress.com/business/defence-ge-will-produce-engines-for-lca-mk2-soon-know-more-about-f414-ins6-engine-3109367/lite/

GE will produce engines for LCA Mk2 soon - Know more about F414-INS6 engine
The GE-414 engine is a powerful and reliable engine that is currently used in a number of fighter jets, including the F/A-18 Super Hornet and the EA-18G Growler.
In what is expected to give a major boost to India’s defence manufacturing sector, in the forthcoming visit of Prime Minister Narendra Modi to the US, a deal for the local manufacturing of the GE F414-INS6 engine for the Mk-2 Tejas fighter jet with transfer of technology (ToT) is expected to be approved.

The US based General Electric has sent an application to the American Congress seeking approval to jointly produce jet engines that could power jet aircraft and produced indigenously by India. At the end of talks between NSA Ajit Doval and his counterpart Jake Sullivan, a fact sheet issued by White House confirmed receiving the request and promised expeditious review of the application.

The company is expected to collaborate with Defence Research and Development Organisation to produce F414-INS6 engines for Tejas Mk2 which are expected to replace the ageing Mirage 2000, the MiG-29 fighters and Jaguar. If approved the engine manufacturer is expected to transfer technologies which will allow the production of critical components in India.


The GE-414 engine is a powerful and reliable engine that is currently used in a number of fighter jets, including the F/A-18 Super Hornet and the EA-18G Growler. It is expected to provide the MK-2 Tejas with the performance and capabilities it needs to meet the challenges of the 21st century battlefield.

Also Read
The deal for the local manufacturing of the GE F414 engine is part of a broader effort by India and the US to deepen their defence cooperation. The deal, once approved, is expected to create jobs and boost economic growth in India as the local manufacturing of the engine will require the development of a new supply chain in India. After fulfilling India’s requirement, the engines can be exported too.

Also Read
The GE-414 engine deal is a major milestone in India’s efforts to become self-reliant in defence manufacturing.

GE F414 Features

The GE F414 is a high-performance, two-spool, axial-flow turbofan engine that is used to power a variety of military aircraft, including the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, the JAS 39 Gripen, and the Tejas Mark II. The GE F414 is a derivative of the GE F404 engine, which was developed in the 1970s. The GE414 has a number of features that make it an attractive choice for military aircraft, including:

High thrust: The GE F414 produces up to 18,000 pounds of thrust, which gives it the power to operate a variety of aircraft in a variety of missions.

High reliability: The GE F414 has a proven track record of reliability, with over 10 million hours of flight time accumulated.

Low maintenance: This engine is designed for easy maintenance, which reduces the cost of ownership.

Environmentally friendly: It meets all current environmental regulations, and is designed to be even more environmentally friendly in the future.

More about F414 engine:

Digital Engine Control (DEC): The GE414 is the first fighter engine to use a full authority digital engine control (FADEC) system. FADEC provides precise control of the engine’s performance, which improves fuel efficiency and reduces emissions.

Integrated Electronic Engine Instrumentation (IEE): Is the first fighter engine to use an integrated electronic engine instrumentation (IEE) system. IEE provides real-time data on the engine’s performance, which helps pilots to make informed decisions about engine operation.

Wide chord, high-pressure compressor (HPC): Its wide chord, high-pressure compressor (HPC) provides greater efficiency and lower emissions than previous generation engines.

Low-pressure turbine (LPT): The engine’s low-pressure turbine (LPT) is designed for high efficiency and durability.

Previously…

In 2021, state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) placed an order for US$716 million for 99 engines and support services with the US based GE Aviation. These engines will be used to power the `Tejas’ Light Combat Aircraft. The order was placed for the highest thrust variant of the GE-F404 family of engines — the F404-GE-IN20. Both HAL and GE have been in partnership for almost two decades. All the engines and support services are expected to be completed by 2029.

Financial Express Online had reported that cooperation between HAL and GE will be further enhanced when F414 engines are manufactured in India for the upcoming LCA Mk2 programme.

More Stories on

 

[MirageBlue]

Considering that India already makes all the assemblies, tooling etc, it is trivial and ridiculous to again ask for these "TOTs". Only those TOTs where India lacks the knowledge is useful.

India already makes the assemblies, tooling etc for the AL-31FP, not the F-414. We have not received any ToT for the F-414 as yet. If you expect that they are the same across totally different engines then you're completely wrong.

The Russian engines, their design and maintenance philosophy, their MRO is very different to Western engines and their design philosophy as well as their MRO.

The IAF will depend very heavily on HAL to ensure that the F-414s that it uses are maintained, repaired and overhauled within the country by HAL or IAF's BRD. Without this TOT, the IAF would have to send it's engines abroad for them to be MROed. Which would be a disaster given just how many engines we're talking about.

 

[MirageBlue]

This is your fantasy without basis. How many Russian Sukhoi 30s have crashed due to engine?

Thank our stars that the Su-30MKI is a twin engine fighter. Many years ago, there was a statistic released by the IAF in an in house magazine. It stated that till 2012, there had been 36 incidents of in-flight engine failures on the Su-30MKI fleet.

36! Not sure how many of these were flame outs that were resolved in flight with engine re-lights.

If this had been a single engine aircraft, we'd have potentially had several additional Su-30MKI crashes!

article link

The instances of single-engine Su-30MKI landings were very high during the period. This was lowering the operational ability of the fleet, besides raising questions about war readiness.

The Su-30MKI is a twin-engine aircraft and can land even if one of its engines fails mid-air. But this limits pilot’s ability to attack or withdraw during a conflict.

 

[Samej Jangir]

India already makes the assemblies, tooling etc for the AL-31FP, not the F-414. We have not received any ToT for the F-414 as yet. If you expect that they are the same across totally different engines then you're completely wrong.

The Russian engines, their design and maintenance philosophy, their MRO is very different to Western engines and their design philosophy as well as their MRO.

The IAF will depend very heavily on HAL to ensure that the F-414s that it uses are maintained, repaired and overhauled within the country by HAL or IAF's BRD. Without this TOT, the IAF would have to send it's engines abroad for them to be MROed. Which would be a disaster given just how many engines we're talking about.

I agree that the tooling and Technology for Al31 is different from F414. But my point is that there is hardldy anything that India will learn from it. India needs ToT as a foundation for indigenous engine, not merely to service foreign engine. If your idea of indigenisation is kerely import of engines and doing basic services, then you are having some serious problems or a traitor.

The ToT for servicing F414 is only a temporary measure and hence should be treated as merely a short term target. Investing heavily on it doesn't make sense. In case of wars, the MRO and servicing is usele unless it is backed up by supply of critical parts. If the critical parts are imported, it creates a major bottleneck in ensuring sovereignty regardless of the MRO stations.

 

[NutCracker]

Thank our stars that the Su-30MKI is a twin engine fighter. Many years ago, there was a statistic released by the IAF in an in house magazine. It stated that till 2012, there had been 36 incidents of in-flight engine failures on the Su-30MKI fleet.

36! Not sure how many of these were flame outs that were resolved in flight with engine re-lights.

If this had been a single engine aircraft, we'd have potentially had several additional Su-30MKI crashes!

article link

for two decades China used same AL31 in 500+ single engine J10s (now replacing with Ws10 )..

despite iron curtain their should've been a dozen leaks of J10 crashes coming out if AL31 was so bad. Maybe HAL's overhaul division needs better training .

 

[Samej Jangir]

Thank our stars that the Su-30MKI is a twin engine fighter. Many years ago, there was a statistic released by the IAF in an in house magazine. It stated that till 2012, there had been 36 incidents of in-flight engine failures on the Su-30MKI fleet.

36! Not sure how many of these were flame outs that were resolved in flight with engine re-lights.

If this had been a single engine aircraft, we'd have potentially had several additional Su-30MKI crashes!

article link

The UPA era was a major blackhole in defence. Astra missile was under ground testing for 11 yesrs from 2003 to 2014-5 when it was flight tested. This doesn't mean the technology is bad or India is incapable but simply means that there was political sabotage. Even airforce was given insufficient funds, thereby reducing the ability to purchase spare parts and having to mamke do with inferior jugads. India was experimenting substitution of various parts from indigenous sources without full testing. Does this mean Al31 was bad technology? No, it is simply inconclusive.

Also, considering the fact that China has been using J10s on Al31s which have not actually crashed, it is likely the problem with India caused by the above mentioned sabotage rather than Al31.

 

[Samej Jangir]

https://www.financialexpress.com/business/defence-ge-will-produce-engines-for-lca-mk2-soon-know-more-about-f414-ins6-engine-3109367/lite/

GE will produce engines for LCA Mk2 soon - Know more about F414-INS6 engine
The GE-414 engine is a powerful and reliable engine that is currently used in a number of fighter jets, including the F/A-18 Super Hornet and the EA-18G Growler.
In what is expected to give a major boost to India’s defence manufacturing sector, in the forthcoming visit of Prime Minister Narendra Modi to the US, a deal for the local manufacturing of the GE F414-INS6 engine for the Mk-2 Tejas fighter jet with transfer of technology (ToT) is expected to be approved.

The US based General Electric has sent an application to the American Congress seeking approval to jointly produce jet engines that could power jet aircraft and produced indigenously by India. At the end of talks between NSA Ajit Doval and his counterpart Jake Sullivan, a fact sheet issued by White House confirmed receiving the request and promised expeditious review of the application.

The company is expected to collaborate with Defence Research and Development Organisation to produce F414-INS6 engines for Tejas Mk2 which are expected to replace the ageing Mirage 2000, the MiG-29 fighters and Jaguar. If approved the engine manufacturer is expected to transfer technologies which will allow the production of critical components in India.


The GE-414 engine is a powerful and reliable engine that is currently used in a number of fighter jets, including the F/A-18 Super Hornet and the EA-18G Growler. It is expected to provide the MK-2 Tejas with the performance and capabilities it needs to meet the challenges of the 21st century battlefield.

Also Read
The deal for the local manufacturing of the GE F414 engine is part of a broader effort by India and the US to deepen their defence cooperation. The deal, once approved, is expected to create jobs and boost economic growth in India as the local manufacturing of the engine will require the development of a new supply chain in India. After fulfilling India’s requirement, the engines can be exported too.

Also Read
The GE-414 engine deal is a major milestone in India’s efforts to become self-reliant in defence manufacturing.

GE F414 Features

The GE F414 is a high-performance, two-spool, axial-flow turbofan engine that is used to power a variety of military aircraft, including the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, the JAS 39 Gripen, and the Tejas Mark II. The GE F414 is a derivative of the GE F404 engine, which was developed in the 1970s. The GE414 has a number of features that make it an attractive choice for military aircraft, including:

High thrust: The GE F414 produces up to 18,000 pounds of thrust, which gives it the power to operate a variety of aircraft in a variety of missions.

High reliability: The GE F414 has a proven track record of reliability, with over 10 million hours of flight time accumulated.

Low maintenance: This engine is designed for easy maintenance, which reduces the cost of ownership.

Environmentally friendly: It meets all current environmental regulations, and is designed to be even more environmentally friendly in the future.

More about F414 engine:

Digital Engine Control (DEC): The GE414 is the first fighter engine to use a full authority digital engine control (FADEC) system. FADEC provides precise control of the engine’s performance, which improves fuel efficiency and reduces emissions.

Integrated Electronic Engine Instrumentation (IEE): Is the first fighter engine to use an integrated electronic engine instrumentation (IEE) system. IEE provides real-time data on the engine’s performance, which helps pilots to make informed decisions about engine operation.

Wide chord, high-pressure compressor (HPC): Its wide chord, high-pressure compressor (HPC) provides greater efficiency and lower emissions than previous generation engines.

Low-pressure turbine (LPT): The engine’s low-pressure turbine (LPT) is designed for high efficiency and durability.

Previously…

In 2021, state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) placed an order for US$716 million for 99 engines and support services with the US based GE Aviation. These engines will be used to power the `Tejas’ Light Combat Aircraft. The order was placed for the highest thrust variant of the GE-F404 family of engines — the F404-GE-IN20. Both HAL and GE have been in partnership for almost two decades. All the engines and support services are expected to be completed by 2029.

Financial Express Online had reported that cooperation between HAL and GE will be further enhanced when F414 engines are manufactured in India for the upcoming LCA Mk2 programme.

More Stories on

Instead of living in fantasies and believing the same baseless fakenews for decades despite them always turning out to be false, why don't you calm down and wait for actual results rather then merely keep writing big articles conjured up by the author's fantasies?

Keep calm and wait till anything actually moves ahead

 

[MirageBlue]

One Q I have, how "good" is the F-18 for IAF, since we need 114 jets as a part of the MRFA program, F-18 is a contender there and is powered by GE F414 only, also it's almost confirmed if we're getting the Engine ToT then the Navy will also buy carrier-based F-18, US won't give Engine ToT just like that.

I don't know much about IAF structure and fighter jets etc so asking, I've heard F-18 is a "heavy" jet in the same class/size as the Su-30, however with Roosis current difficulties and future as a Choinees vassal F-18 does seem a good fall-back

Most likely the F/A-18 E/F will not be the Boeing offering for the 114 MRFA contest. They'll instead go with the F-15EX.

 

[MirageBlue]

The UPA era was a major blackhole in defence. Astra missile was under ground testing for 11 yesrs from 2003 to 2014-5 when it was flight tested. This doesn't mean the technology is bad or India is incapable but simply means that there was political sabotage. Even airforce was given insufficient funds, thereby reducing the ability to purchase spare parts and having to mamke do with inferior jugads. India was experimenting substitution of various parts from indigenous sources without full testing. Does this mean Al31 was bad technology? No, it is simply inconclusive.

Also, considering the fact that China has been using J10s on Al31s which have not actually crashed, it is likely the problem with India caused by the above mentioned sabotage rather than Al31.

How many J-10s have crashed? As per open source information, at least 15 known crashes have occurred, but this is just what is openly accepted by the PLAAF. Given how the Chinese control news outlets and what gets out, the actual numbers could be higher.

Aviation Safety Network- J-10 crashes known so far

 

[MirageBlue]

According to this person, the TTSL of HAL Tejas Mk1 and MK1A airframe is around 3000 flight-hours and it is one of the main reason why Tejas Mk1 lost to KAI FA-50 in Malaysia and will also loose in Egypt to same fighter.

Aero India 2023 | Truncated Expo, Advantage HAL -

With limited presence of foreign exhibitors, Indian companies dominated the show Prasun K. Sengupta Compared to its predecessors, the 14th

forceindia.net

Further, all over the world who develop fighter aircraft the TTSL of their fighter airframe is more than turbofan TTSL.

The Tejas MAST has not yet completed the full scale fatigue life testing of the static test airframe. Once that is done, we'll get to know what the actual fatigue life of the Tejas Mk1/Mk1A is.

It will comfortably exceed 3000 hours. Believing a fool like Prasun Sengupta can be quite injurious to one's mental health.

 

[MirageBlue]

afaik some news I read a long time ago said 9000 was the number, then I asked here about it and I got that number. Still, given the high quality of the materials used on the airframe, 9000 seems like the right one.

It depends. from what I know having spoken in some detail to a former ADA scientist who was a key figure in the development of composites related software AUTOLAY, the IAF requirement as per the Air Staff Qualitative Requirement (ASQR) was 3000 hours/20 years minimum.

But that 3000 hours was a minimum requirement and the Tejas was designed with much higher Factors of Safety since they were building a composite fighter for the first time.

It will comfortably exceed 3000 hours and could even exceed 6000 hours, depending on the results of the MAST static airframe that began fatigue testing trials last year. It will take 8-9 years to achieve the full scale fatigue tests and results will be analysed to see which parts may require to be replaced earlier or need repairs to achieve a desired airframe life.

Read the article below:
HAL commences airframe fatigue testing of Tejas MK1

 

[MonaLazy]

non sense

You have an ignore button. Use it. Otherwise kindly stfu.

 

[MonaLazy]

Probably the first Western news article on the proposed local assembly.. carries their perspective..

Exclusive: US set to allow GE to make engines in India for New Delhi's military jets

The Biden administration is poised to sign off on a deal that would allow General Electric Co to produce jet engines powering Indian military aircraft in that country, according to three people briefed on the decision.

www.reuters.com

Exclusive: US set to allow GE to make engines in India for New Delhi's military jets
June 1, 20233:25 AM GMT+5:30Updated 12 hours ago

Indian Air Force (IAF) LCA Tejas performs an aerobatic display during the Aero India 2023 air show at Yelahanka air base in Bengaluru, India, February 13, 2023. REUTERS/Samuel Rajkumar/File Photo
WASHINGTON/NEW DELHI, May 31 (Reuters) - The Biden administration is poised to sign off on a deal that would allow General Electric Co (GE.N) to produce jet engines powering Indian military aircraft in that country, according to three people briefed on the decision.
A deal finalizing the joint production of the engines is expected to be inked and announced by the time President Joe Biden hosts Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi for an official state visit on June 22, the people said on condition of anonymity because the decision has not been made public.
The White House, which said in January that it had received the application to jointly produce the engines in India, declined to comment. GE did not immediately respond to a request for comment.
Washington is working to deepen ties with the world's largest democracy and sees deeper military-to-military and technology ties with the South Asian country as a key counterweight to China's dominance in the region.
India, the world's largest arm importer, depends on Russia for nearly half its military supplies, and has bought fighter jets, tanks, nuclear submarines and an aircraft carrier over the decades.
Advertisement · Scroll to continue
New Delhi has frustrated Washington by participating in military exercises with Russia and increasing purchases of the country's crude oil, a key source of funding for Moscow's war in Ukraine.
India's state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) (HIAE.NS) had previously said it planned to use the GE-manufactured 414 engine on a second generation of light-combat aircraft and that it was in talks over domestic production of those engines.
The deal is not finalized and also requires notification to the U.S. Congress, according to two of the people briefed on the arrangement.
Washington maintains strict controls over what domestic military technology can be shared or sold to other countries.
A broader joint partnership between the United States and India announced earlier this year is designed to encourage companies from both countries to collaborate, especially on military equipment and cutting-edge technology.
Advertisement · Scroll to continue
While GE has offered some transfer of technology to HAL, which will produce the engines as a licensed manufacturer, India is pushing for more technology to be shared, according to one of the people with knowledge of the conversations.
India is keen to get the know-how to make aircraft engines. Though it can manufacture fighter jets domestically, it lacks the ability to produce engines to power them.
HAL is using a lighter GE engine for the 83 light combat aircraft it is manufacturing for the Indian air force. However, India intends to produce more than 350 fighter jets for its air force and navy over the next two decades, which could be powered by the GE 414.
Reporting by Trevor Hunnicutt in Washington, Krishn Kaushik in New Delhi and Rajesh Kumar Singh in Chicago; Edited by Heather Timmons and Jamie Freed

 

[Samej Jangir]

How many J-10s have crashed? As per open source information, at least 15 known crashes have occurred, but this is just what is openly accepted by the PLAAF. Given how the Chinese control news outlets and what gets out, the actual numbers could be higher.

Aviation Safety Network- J-10 crashes known so far

Is 15 crashes in 25 years (20 years after induction) too big? Also, not all the crashes are due to engine failures. Some could be due to FBW failure, bird ingestion etc too. Merely stating that China hides the data is not a good argument.

 

[MonaLazy]

Not sure if this has been posted before so..

Modi is eyeing a jet engine to propel India-US ties to new sphere

Modi's visit is being seen as a landmark in India-America ties because the last state visit to the US by an Indian PM was in November 2009 when President Obama hosted Dr Manmohan Singh. President Biden has had just one state visit so far, when he hosted French President Emanuel Macron in...

economictimes.indiatimes.com

Modi is eyeing a jet engine to propel India-US ties to new sphere
Synopsis
Modi's visit is being seen as a landmark in India-America ties because the last state visit to the US by an Indian PM was in November 2009 when President Obama hosted Dr Manmohan Singh. President Biden has had just one state visit so far, when he hosted French President Emanuel Macron in December 2022.

Agencies
Though Prime Minister Narendra Modi has visited the US more than half a dozen times since he became the PM, he will be on his first state visit on June 22. A state visit to the US is different from official or working visits, since a country can have just one state visit during a US president’s four-year term. A state visit involves a lot of pomp and show, including a 21-gun salute at the White House.

Modi's visit is being seen as a landmark in India-America ties because the last state visit to the US by an Indian PM was in November 2009 when President Obama hosted Dr Manmohan Singh. President Biden has had just one state visit so far, when he hosted French President Emanuel Macron in December 2022.

The centrepiece of Modi's visit is a jet engine, which can propel India-America relations to a new sphere altogether.

India has been striving to become Atmanirbhar in defence production, especially after the Russia-Ukraine war which exposed its utter dependence on Russia for weapons. Achieving self-reliance in defence and reducing import dependency for military hardware is important for India to maintain its strategic autonomy.

In the last few years, India has been trying to indigenise its military supplies at a maddening pace. The government released a few days ago a fresh list of 928 components and subsystems that will only be procured from domestic firms once import bans on them kick in, over a period of five-and-a-half years. India's ambition to become a defence production hub can get a big boost if Modi is able to bag a jet engine deal in the US.

What's the jet engine deal?
Sharing of advanced defense technology has emerged as a new factor in India-America ties. The US has so far been cautious of sharing defence technology even with its partner countries. The Ukraine-Russia war and China-US tensions have made India an important bet for America. India wants critical defence and computing technology from the US for deeper ties. A major interest for India is domestic production of jet engines of America's General Electric Aviation.

GE Aviation is open to the transfer of technology to India for the indigenous manufacture of engines for India's Tejas-MK2 Light Combat Aircraft as it does not want to lose a big market to Europe.

The Biden administration has approved GE Aviation's application to co-produce GE-F414 jet engines in India complete with technology transfer. The next step is Congressional review and approval under the Arms Export Control Act, which governs the transfer of all high-end defence technology. The US designated India a major defence partner in 2016 but it still did not equate India with other partners like Australia and Japan in the Arms Export Control Act. This means every single deal for transfer of military technology for co-production must undergo rigorous multi-stage scrutiny.

Some members of Congress are wary of the industry push to sell sensitive technology even to allies, forget partners, according to Seema Sirohi, a commentator on foreign policy. In India's case, expect questions about New Delhi's stand on the Ukraine war and friendship with Russia, which administration officials will (hopefully) answer to satisfaction, Sirohi has written in ET.

America's National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan has acknowledged that the partnership with India isn’t without its risks, given the weapons trade between India and Russia, but he stressed that the initiative wasn’t sparked by the war in Ukraine or efforts to drive a wedge between New Delhi and Moscow, Bloomberg has reported.

GE Aviation already has a significant presence in India's aerospace sector due to availability of quality talent in software, simulation and electronics. It started a back office operation here more than decade ago to develop new products. Its India team had worked on the GEnx engine, the fastest-selling, high-thrust jet engine in GE Aviation history. Most of GE Aviation products have a contribution of 20-40% from the India team.

Why the deal is so important for India
If India is able to bag the GE jet engine deal, it will enter a super-exclusive club of countries that produce jet engines indigenously — the US, Britain, France and Russia. Significantly, China does not manufacture jet engines of its own (despite @SexyChineseLady 's efforts at https://defenceforumindia.com/threads/exciting-times-for-chinese-aircraft-engines.82944/ ), which will give India a critical tech edge over its rival.

Clearance for co-production of GE engines in India would be a step toward lessening the country’s historic reliance on Russia for military hardware — a boost for American diplomacy in the effort to isolate Moscow over its invasion of Ukraine (LOL), according to Bloomberg. India now flies a mix of Russian, European and locally produced jets in its fighter fleet, a reflection of its position outside the superpowers’ orbits.

The deal will follow Sullivan and India's NSA Ajit Doval launching US-India initiative on Critical and Emerging Technologies (iCET) a few months ago. The iCET will involve a range of technology transfers, exchanges, and cooperation, including bilateral space cooperation. Both are supposed to propel India-US ties to a new sphere from lingering mutual distrust between the two countries.

Modi's June 22 visit to the US could be path-breaking for India. The GE Aviation jet engine deal can herald a new age in India-US defence industrial partenership which can extend to co-production of other major American weapon systems in India. This will bolster Modi's Make in India and Atmanirbhar Bharat projects in a major way as well as empowering India's defence vis à vis China.

(With inputs from TOI and agencies)

 

[MonaLazy]

www.news9live.com/world/us-india-jet-engine-deal-a-new-era-for-indigenous-defence-tech-2162827

US-India jet engine deal: A new era for indigenous defence tech?

News9 Plus Correspondent
Published:
01 Jun 2023 21:56M

India USA flags (Image used for representational purpose only.)

The UK, the US, France, and Russia are the only countries to have mastered the combat jet engine technology till now.

On June 22, when Prime Minister Narendra Modi visits the United States, he is likely to ink a deal that may usher in a new era in transfer of defence technology for India. During the trip, General Electric could offer transfer of jet engine technology to India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

This is highly significant because transfer of technology in this sphere is easier said than done.
The modern jet engine, the heart and soul of a military aircraft, was first patented by British aviation engineer and pilot Frank Whittle in 1930. Nine decades later, only four countries in the world have mastered the technology for the production of combat jet engines: the UK, the US, France, and Russia.

Even China, with its cutting-edge advancements and mastery of reverse engineering, continues to struggle with successfully developing jet engines for military aircraft, and relies on Russian engines. The joint Pakistani-Chinese fighter jet, the JF-17, is also powered by a single Russian RD-33 engine. Chinese state-owned aviation firm Skyrizon’s recent attempt to acquire a controlling stake in Motor Sich, a Ukrainian engine manufacturer, has fallen through as well.

The leading jet engine vendors—General Electric (GE), Honeywell, and Pratt & Whitney of the US; the British Rolls-Royce; the French Safran; and Russia’s Klimov and Saturn—have not been as forthcoming about sharing the technical know-how which could boost India’s self-reliance in the defence sector. For instance, Safran wanted more than €1 billion to part with the technology.

Explaining why the technology remains the preserve of a handful of countries, Dr S Christopher, former Chairman, Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), told News9 Plus, “The existing engine producers have developed it over the years with civil and military funding of many countries. But no one will invest in a country just starting out [with such tech development]. Private companies don’t think this is a viable business case. Governments cannot give sustained support for various reasons. On one side are the technical challenges, and on the other are the pressures from companies*. Hence, it is not a pure case of technology insufficiency.”

Self note- * What is this "pressure from companies" Dr Christopher is talking about?

India’s jet engine adventures

Meanwhile, India’s decades-long attempts at domestic development of military jet engine have not been fruitful. Despite the experience with license producing the MiG-27, MiG-21, and the Su-30, we have not mastered the technology.

India’s first indigenously designed and developed fighter jet, the HF-24 Marut, was powered by a British-built jet engine, Orpheus 703, which was not powerful enough. Amid the unavailability of suitable engines, the Marut was abandoned.

To address the issue, Project Kaveri was launched in the 1980s. India tried to develop a jet engine on its own to power the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas. Despite massive cost overruns and extended delays, the Kaveri engine prototypes failed to meet the LCA requirements(Why does news keep contradicting itself? If Kaveri is a success now then GTRE must sue such news outlets spreading disinformation). Currently, the Tejas LCAs are powered by a GE F404 engine.

Elaborating upon the challenges for indigenous engine development, Dr Christopher said technology is changing rapidly. “The Tejas is also getting evolved. By the time we reach a certain point in engine development, the requirement would have gone up and the funding could not support modified procurement of GE 404 and development with the new requirements. Then the hard reality of flight testing, materials, and reliability caught on. If we restrict ourselves to some specifications and work towards it, even if it is going to be used for ships, then we will build our confidence and succeed eventually. We have aimed for an ambitious target without allocating adequate resources,” he said.

Self note- this is probably the best thing to happen to Kaveri, to develop as a project on its own de-linked from the quicksand that is Tejas ASQR (from Mk1 to Mk2). He is also saying as soon as we reach a certain performance the power requirement from the engine goes up (thanks IAF)- so Kaveri is forever playing catch up. Best to use the tech developed under the program for other purposes like drones/ships etc. by first writing the specs in stone and then achieving them.

While India has made attempts to revive the Kaveri engine project, success remains elusive. The reluctance of the tech-holding countries to share complex and valuable knowledge is a significant hurdle to domestic production.

A new era with India-US Transfer of Technology?

The situation could change for the better with the Transfer of Technology (ToT) which General Electric is expected to offer to India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) during Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s US visit.

It has been reported that 100% ToT will allow India to manufacture the more powerful GE F414 engine variant. It would power the LCA Mark II, Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), and other future Indian fighter jets.

This is highly significant because transfer of technology in this sphere is easier said than done. So far, India has been devoid of genuine transfer of technology.

It is not clear whether the US engine deal will be similar to previous deals like those with Russia where jet engines were built with ToT for decades but India did not have the capability to design its own jet engine from scratch that involves metallurgy and manufacturing engine components. For instance, experts say, we have been carrying on just licensed production of the Russian-made Mig 27 and Mig 21 Jets.

The deal could be a major breakthrough for India if it allows us to successfully develop military jet engines on our own and power indigenous fighter aircraft programmes. However, it would take at least a decade as the engine components will be developed in phases before moving to the next stage.
“The positive in all this is that there will be learning for the nation and infrastructure build-up for engine development. We have a huge youth population and if we train them well, then OEMs (original equipment manufacturers) themselves will lean on us,” adds Dr Christopher.

 

[Anandhu Krishna]

Details are trickling in primarily that it will take a decade to fully absorb F414 tech! & that they are also going to work on ship engines next.. also get the feeling that GE will edge out Safran and RR (already embroiled in a scandal over Hawk AJTs) for 120kN engine.. expecting some big announcements in next few months.

India & US close to mega defence deal: Pact for fighter jet engines 1st, ship engines likely next

Transfer of Technology (ToT) for jet engines was the main thrust of National Security Advisor Ajit Doval's talks with his American counterpart Jack Sullivan in February.

theprint.in

India & US close to mega defence deal: Pact for fighter jet engines 1st, ship engines likely next
31 May, 2023 07:30 am IST

View attachment 208196

Over 1,600-plus F414 engines have been delivered by General Electric till date | Pic courtesy: GE
Text Size: A- A+
New Delhi: After a wait of over a decade, India and the US are on the verge of signing a mega defence deal to facilitate state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited’s (HAL) partnership with American firm General Electric (GE) for jointly manufacturing indigenous jet engines of fighter aircraft.

While the partnership initially will be for aviation engines, it will eventually extend to those powering Indian military ships, ThePrint has learnt.

Sources described the proposed deal, which is likely to be announced during Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s state visit to the US next month, as one of the most definitive defence collaborations to take place between the two countries.

Chalking out the broad contours of the deal will be one of the key focus areas for US Secretary of Defense Llyod James Austin during his visit to New Delhi next week.

Sources said a memorandum of understanding (MoU) needs to be finalised between GE and HAL and both sides are “pretty close” to doing it. The second step is that US government needs to notify the Congress, which is a 30 day period. Sources said that they don’t expect any issues at the Congress.

As reported by ThePrint, Transfer of Technology (ToT) for jet engines was the main thrust of National Security Advisor (NSA) Ajit Doval’s talks with his American counterpart Jack Sullivan in February when they also operationalised the US-India Initiative on Critical and Emerging Technologies (iCET).

US President Joe Biden and PM Modi had announced the iCET in May 2022 to elevate and expand bilateral strategic technology partnership and defence industrial cooperation between the governments, businesses, and academic institutions of the two countries.

The US is keen on inking the deal as it takes the bilateral relations to a new high, and will help it beat the European competition from the French engine maker Safran and the British firm Rolls-Royce to the finish line.

Giving details of the proposed defence deal, sources in the defence establishment said the plan is to manufacture the GE F414 engine, which was shortlisted by India in 2010 to power the Mark II version of the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft Tejas, which currently comes with GE F404 engine.

Once its production starts in India, the GE F414 will power all future fighter jets including the Tejas Mk II, Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) as well as the indigenous Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF) for the Indian Navy.

The F414 is an afterburning turbofan engine in the 22,000 pound (98 KN) thrust class of engines. The Boeing Super Hornets and the Gripen fighter jets are among those aircraft that run on this engine.

While those fitted on board the AMCA is likely to be a newer version of a higher thrust class, the 100 per cent Transfer of Technology (ToT) to India has the potential to pave the way for future joint design, development, and manufacture of more powerful engines.

As per the schedule plan, the process will involve first making components for the engines in phases before actually moving to the full step up which will take at least a decade, the sources said.

The work on the F414 will be undertaken by the Engines Division of the Bengaluru-based HAL.

When the engine was shortlisted in 2010, John Flannery, the then President & CEO, GE India had said GE Aviation will supply the initial batch of F414-GE-INS6 engines and the rest will be manufactured in India under transfer of technology arrangement.

However, the plans for the ToT ran into rough weather because of a tough US government stance on export of critical technology and later was relaxed only in 2019.

Absolutely unnecessary hype.

 

[MirageBlue]

I agree that the tooling and Technology for Al31 is different from F414. But my point is that there is hardldy anything that India will learn from it. India needs ToT as a foundation for indigenous engine, not merely to service foreign engine. If your idea of indigenisation is kerely import of engines and doing basic services, then you are having some serious problems or a traitor.

The ToT for servicing F414 is only a temporary measure and hence should be treated as merely a short term target. Investing heavily on it doesn't make sense. In case of wars, the MRO and servicing is usele unless it is backed up by supply of critical parts. If the critical parts are imported, it creates a major bottleneck in ensuring sovereignty regardless of the MRO stations.

Serious problems or a traitor?

I guess there's no point in wasting time discussing with a person like you. Tata.

 

[Raj Malhotra]

I think we should ask Godrej, LT and Tata etc to join together with HAL to absorb engine technology. I have very low faith in HAL