ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[piKacHHu]

Fuck Capitalism and socialism.
Accountability is where its at.

Indian Companies, its owners, government and Public should all act as a large family. When one falls down the other pulls them up.

Lack of accountability happens when you have captive markets; OFB knows whatever crap they produce, the armed force will going to procure it as there is no alternate vendor available.

Second, HAL, OFB or any other DPSU for that matter, they don't include the cost of human resources in the project cost; So, excluding man-hour cost amounts to state subsidy for the production which for any private player is not an option. This covers up the lack of efficiency in DPSUs where the long delay in projects doesn't reflect huge cost overruns as it is assumed that the Government is taking care of the salary-perks of the PSU/OFB employees.

Third, Lack of economy of scale is also the reason which deters private sector investing heavily into defense production. Look at the L&T plant set-up for K9 Vajra, they are literally begging for more orders as their production line is about to meet its target before its stipulated deadline. Similar is the case for M777 assembly at Mahindra motors. In absence of large order, who will invest in production line which gets idle after catering a few orders.

In the prevailing scenario, you can't make rivet nut to jet engines under single roof as it's quite uneconomical. Diversification hedges the potential risks and reduces production cost; that is why every aviation giant from LM to Airbus, they promote an ecosystem of niche MSMEs which contribute heavily in their manufacturing.

For HAL, it's for their own interest to improve efficiency in production for lowering the production cost; otherwise in a case where it decides to participate in any global tender for exporting Tejas, they will get royally exposed while justifying unit cost that too including man-hour cost. That will simply break the myth of cheap production cost in India. (Something, which we had seen during MRCA 1.0 for Rafale production line at HAL.)

 

[Bleh]

Lack of accountability happens when you have captive markets; OFB knows whatever crap they produce, the armed force will going to procure it as there is no alternate vendor available.

OFB knows whatever crap they produce, they'll still get paid.

There is no incentive in government organisations. Unless you are operating with very very motivated group like the present Tejas team, the slack will show.

 

[piKacHHu]

OFB knows whatever crap they produce, they'll still get paid.

There is no incentive in government organisations. Unless you are operating with very very motivated group like the present Tejas team, the slack will show.

Indeed, there are many well motivated people working in HAL. But the problem is two way; the diligent employee of HAL will continue to get more or less same salary even when its production line performs fabulously fast or gets delayed for years. And there are bad apples in every work force, let's not deny that. So for how long he/she could push HAL on motivation alone.

Compare it with let's say Alfa Design Tech or Samtel, they started with a small team with meager salaries; based on their initial supplies to HAL and increase in order book, they expanded, recruited more employees, and gave raise to their skilled worker and so forth while maintaining a healthy profit margin. For them there is a real incentive in achieving quality standards in production and meeting time-lines. Moreover, they need to look for potential competition from other firms. Hence, at the end of the day, they will be more motivated to produce something good as compared to any DPSU employee.

HAL, now at its hand full with these anticipated fighter programs about to come in:
1. Tejas Mk1A (confirmed by DAC; most likely its order will be executed)
2. AMCA (Based on funding to ADA, it will also see the light)
3. MWF (In Design Phase; most likely to receive green light from the Defense ministry)
4. ORCA/TEDF (In problem definition phase/ or lets say approaching its first PDR)

Given that all these fighters are 4 +/ 5 th gen aircraft; it will be humongous task for HAL to carry them all along with its limited resources. We need a separate assembly line owned by private industry to handle any one of these ambitious projects with HAL working as hand-holding for them.

 

[janme]

You guys are focusing your ire on the wrong PSU, yes HAL has a lot of problems and lot of reforms are needed, but let's look at facts, MOD in collusion with IAF is not paying it's dues to HAL, this was especially rampant in previous government so that they can kill the only PSU which reduces there imports signigicantly, how the hell do you expect ANY company to function when you don't allow them earn any profit (Tejasmk1a) and neither paying them there dues?. As for small rate of production, aks the IAF to give larger orders, nobody is going to open one more production line just for 40 jets.

HAL has successfully developed LCH(here the orders are delayed due to DRDO's failure to develop SANT and HELINA) , LUH, DHRUV( Completely managed by HAL and see how successful it is).
HAL has developed HTSE1200, which will save billions of dollars of forex since we need a lot of these engines in next 10 to 15 years, a modified version can be used for drones again giving us strategic independence. A modified HTFE25 can be used in UCAV's. This shows the vision and excellent project management of HAL.
Now the government is not giving funds to develop IMRH to HAL and HAL doesn't have funds to do R&D, it is anyone's guess that who is going to benefit from this type of situation.

Government needs to first get rid of BEML, Paralyse OFB e.t.c. Get rid of useless ones first.
The whole LCA saga was poor project management from DRDO and a host of other factors, DRDO needs to assess it's capabilities properly and then undertake a project otherwise, making tall claims benefits no one.

 

[vishnugupt]

USA is not a perfect model. See now China has developed two jets with Lockheed Martin's stealth tech. It was a high-level scam but at the end of the day private companies are far more porus.

Not to mention their Jets are way overpriced than what it would be if DARPA made their own jets. Because remember private companies greatest motivation is always to make profit. They can't just take a 50% cut in profits like HAL did for Mark1A.
Speaking of profits, do you know how much IAF owes HAL right now? ₹17,000 crores!.. more than their record maximum yearly turnover, pushing HAL to borrow to pay its staff. Try doing that with some private company.

Every system is always a trade off, people who wet their underwear in the name of private defence production do not look into these aspects of public services.
Even the venerable Kalyani group may change hands in 20 years & some sack-of-shit may become powerful. If you let them DRDO/ADA develop critical tech, what is to stop them from selling to Pakistan for money?



Private partners belong as helpers, making non critical components to speed up the manufacturing process & leaving the PSUs to concentrate on critically guarded classified tech.

You are absolutely right at present scenario as we don't have mature private sector but how long ?? if we really want a meaningful place in aerospace sector in next 20 or 30 years then we have open the door for private sector 100% because competition is the key of innovation.
Next thing is "guarding critical technology" would these words be relevant in next 40 years ?? Today even a atom bomb can be made at home. All information is available only thing needed is money.
How much critical technology a products contains?? 1% or 2% !! It is justifying holding back a billion dollar industry just because we might lose this 1% or 2% critical technology?? there are other ways we can safeguard this critical technology like stringent laws, deploying CISF at manufacturing site or Government units are allowed to manufacture critical parts only.

 

[Bleh]

All information is available only thing needed is money.

Great, problem solved... The private sectors can develope their own tech.

Special in fields of metallurgy, automobile etc. Guns, cannons, armoured vehicles, aerospace parts, shipbuilding are the 1st step.

 

[vishnugupt]

Great, problem solved... The private sectors can develope their own tech.

Special in fields of metallurgy, automobile etc. Guns, cannons, armoured vehicles, aerospace parts, shipbuilding are the 1st step.

Exactly, If private firms given 100% entry then they have to develop technology by their own. No spoon feeding. and still government can control technology by making laws and clauses.
this will also help to decongested DRDO for future challenges and they can focus on future technologies like DARPA

 

[Anandhu Krishna]

Have they redesigned the Intake for Mk2 ?

 

[no smoking]

Great, problem solved... The private sectors can develope their own tech.

Really? Ok, next question: who pay the money?
Both aerodynamic and stealth outfit requires high-end testing infrastructures which require billions of dollars to build, is India government going to finance that?

Even after you get these infrastructures, you will need hundreds of millions dollars to run the tests every year. Some of tests will cost you over a couple of million dollars each time. You will need years of R&D to finalise your design and you won't see return until your design is chosen. If you failed in the bid, then, all your previous investment is gone. Is India government going to reimburse these expenses? If not, these private companies will have to shut down.

The reality is: today, there is no real "private" weapon manufacturing giant.

 

[no smoking]

If USA uses a private player like lockheed Martin, then why cant India have it's own private players?

Because:
1. These private players in West had been working in this area 100 years ago. Most of their know-how was already paid off. It is just you are hiring a postgraduate for a R&D position, you only need to pay his work instead of all of his education costs since pre-school. In developing countries, the private companies had no such accumulation, either they start from scratch or someone "give" to them. Either way, it means big money transfer.
2. Until today, these so called "private" players have become so precious and important, there is no government will let them collapse. They are guaranteed by Government financially. So, they are not really "privately" owned.

 

[Bleh]

Really? Ok, next question: who pay the money?
Both aerodynamic and stealth outfit requires high-end testing infrastructures which require billions of dollars to build, is India government going to finance that?

Even after you get these infrastructures, you will need hundreds of millions dollars to run the tests every year. Some of tests will cost you over a couple of million dollars each time. You will need years of R&D to finalise your design and you won't see return until your design is chosen. If you failed in the bid, then, all your previous investment is gone. Is India government going to reimburse these expenses? If not, these private companies will have to shut down.

The reality is: today, there is no real "private" weapon manufacturing giant.

Kalyani seems to be doing fine... ^That's what i meant though. Private companies in India most likely to continue to be partner or subsystems manufacturers, except stuff like guns & vehicles.

 

[HawkisRight]

Because:
1. These private players in West had been working in this area 100 years ago. Most of their know-how was already paid off. It is just you are hiring a postgraduate for a R&D position, you only need to pay his work instead of all of his education costs since pre-school. In developing countries, the private companies had no such accumulation, either they start from scratch or someone "give" to them. Either way, it means big money transfer.
2. Until today, these so called "private" players have become so precious and important, there is no government will let them collapse. They are guaranteed by Government financially. So, they are not really "privately" owned.

This.. people don't consider complexity of the issue.Yes Boeing and Lockheed are private but they are too big to fail us government will never allow them to collapse plus these private companies are helped by us military(government agency) R&D..what people forget is us military r&d budget is 60B $..So in defense sector R&D should be done by government and manufacturing & supply chains should be done by private sector..Look what is happening at ofb now when country is at brink of war these scums are on protest. If ofb was private this bs would never happen.. bottom line is Indian policymakers need clarity of thought which in past stopped countries development..

 

[dude00720]

Because:
1. These private players in West had been working in this area 100 years ago. Most of their know-how was already paid off. It is just you are hiring a postgraduate for a R&D position, you only need to pay his work instead of all of his education costs since pre-school. In developing countries, the private companies had no such accumulation, either they start from scratch or someone "give" to them. Either way, it means big money transfer.
2. Until today, these so called "private" players have become so precious and important, there is no government will let them collapse. They are guaranteed by Government financially. So, they are not really "privately" owned.

You mean, since, If someone has never created water using electricity, so, that person will need 100 years to learn how to do it?

 

[no smoking]

You mean, since, If someone has never created water using electricity, so, that person will need 100 years to learn how to do it?

No, it is not about how many years to learn but what to learn. If you never done this before, then you better start from learning what is electricity.

 

[no smoking]

Kalyani seems to be doing fine...

Currently they are still in JV with foreign partners who are providing key components and know-how. The question is how much to indigenise the whole weapons:
1. Their own R&D department decodes other know-how;
2. They buy from foreign partners after they make enough money;
3. Some other India companies who already have it gave to them with or without charge.

 

[fire starter]

18.2 tn MTOW.

 

[Bleh]

Jiska vi Twitter apna handle hy, wo post kar dne... @bhramos @LurkerBaba @Karthi @Kuntal View attachment 52671

Big brother, middle brother, little brother...

 

[IndianHawk]

Gripen E/ng fact sheet

Empty weight 8000kg
Internal fuel 3400kg
Mtow 16500 kg.

So payload at Full internal fuel is 5100kg.
So saab has came down from it's high horse.

Lca mk1 itself can lift 4300 kg even with full internal fuel.

Mwf will be a step ahead of gripen NG even if empty weight reached 8 ton.

 

[IndianHawk]

Jiska vi Twitter apna handle hy, wo post kar dne... @bhramos @LurkerBaba @Karthi @Kuntal View attachment 52671

Big brother, middle brother, little brother...
View attachment 52674
View attachment 52673

If they release tedbf specs soon we can have all three brothers in Desi attire . Although tedbf should be pretty close to rafale in specs. Maybe slightly bigger.

 

[tsunami]

Gripen E/ng fact sheet

Empty weight 8000kg
Internal fuel 3400kg
Mtow 16500 kg.

So payload at Full internal fuel is 5100kg.
So saab has came down from it's high horse.

Lca mk1 itself can lift 4300 kg even with full internal fuel.

Mwf will be a step ahead of gripen NG even if empty weight reached 8 ton.

Not to forget there will be at-least 300kg additional load which is not weapons. So actual weapon load at full fuel is only 4800 kg.