ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

Pandeyji

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Which is factually wrong, because it's the inability of our industry, to develop and produce arms and techs, that suit the operational requirements, that makes us the biggest importer!

Even after decades, our industry struggles to develop a 4th gen low end fighter, while our threat perception increased to counter 5th gen fighters. We hope that our industry will be able to deliver 5th gen fighters in 2030, while the threat perception will have changed then again. So this imbalance makes imports necessary, because the security of the nation has to come first!
What came first, the chicken or the egg?

Without orders domestic aero-space industry wouldn't develop, without a developed industry modern aircraft couldn't be brought forth, thus import becomes necessary, thus domestic industry couldn't develop, thus modern planes couldn't be brought forth & so the cycle continues.

So it would be better if this useless debating is refrained from.
SP-12 flew today. So there is still outside chance that we will see SP-16 flying by end of this fiscal
Great news. Seems like either I failed to check or LCA page failed to upload it on FB. Hopefully SP16 would be in air by March.
 

Chinmoy

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Really? Doklam border stand off, surgical strike, cross border mortar shellings, air space violations, PLAN expanding presence in the IOR... why do you think IAF prepares for a 2-2.5 front war today?



True for the first part, false for the 2nd, because you can only use something, that is working and in production. IAF ordered LCA back in 2006 and still is waiting for that order to be delivered. So the complain is about...
...an underperforming product, that went into production below the promised performance and capabilites (responsibility of ADA)
...the delayed certification process (responsibility of ADA)
...as well as the production delays (responsibility of HAL)

Nobody complains about not having an edge, simply because everyone knows, that Indian industry is not able to deliver high tech arms or techs. The issue is, that we can't even provide basic things on our own sor far. A light class fighter, a BVR missile, an LGB, that's nothing that gains an edge today anymore, but is standard capability.



The argument is not getting the costliest or best, but comparable techs and capabilities, that our enemies have. When the enemy is inducting 4.5th and 5th gen medium and heavy class fighters, you can't counter them with a basic 4th gen light class fighter. That's why we need MKI and MMRCA, while adding a working LCA on the lower end.
Going by your logic, India has always been on war since its independence. But tell me which full blown war it fought since 1971. A simple skirmish could be blown out of proportion and lead to war, agreed. But it doesn't mean that you have to go on a crazy shopping spree for it and stress out your economy for that. What our forces always did is knee jerk action along with out politicians. You stay prepared and equipment manufacturing is part of it. A shopping spree can't be termed as a strategic decision and its not a long term solution.

On you part of IAF support for LCA, let me point you out one phrase back from 2008.

In 2005, the IAF placed an order with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited for 16 fighters and four trainers. The then Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee said a decision on an additional 20 aircraft was under consideration. But that plan has come a cropper since the overweight, under-powered Tejas does not meet the IAF’s minimum air staff requirements (ASR).

The IAF decision though is not the end of the road for the Rs. 6,000-crore LCA programme. It will consider acquiring 125 more Tejas when an improved — Mark 2 (Mk2) — variant is developed. As indicated by an IAF committee in 2004, any further order will be subject to the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the designer and developer of the LCA programme, showing “firm visibility that the aircraft will meet the ASR.”
https://www.thehindu.com/todays-pap...sists-on-changes-to-Tejas/article15355169.ece

So how many jets were ordered? 20. But then again IAF was concerned about overweight and engine performance even after the ASR which was formulated back in 1989. So if IAF's ASR was ready so long back, why hadn't they been onboard its development process if they were supporting it. Why wait till the first flight and for 2005 after you order the initial batch?

IAF wanted Tejas to have BVR capability back in 2002 when it was just taking test flight. Fine. But the first Derby started arriving in India by 2008 and then IAF wanted Tejas to complete FOC by 2013 where firing a BVR was a prerequisite. Now studying the effect of adding a new missile on airframe along with changing of firing algorithm and target acquisition and RADAR queuing are things which needs time. Expecting all this to be done in a 5 year time frame is unrealistic on part of IAF.

By displaying doubt even on the initial batch IAF has effectively sowed doubt in the mind of developers and any prospective developers because any further order has lot of dependency to cover up. How could anyone show interest in its production in such a situation?

The second batch of 20 LCA was forced feed to IAF literally by M Parrikar and its result was the 2nd and third production line for expedite production process. This is the 2nd batch of 20 fighters which opened up the possibility to outsource private players work share. Unless you promise or order firm numbers, you can't expect a expedite delivery of numbers.

Let me show you another classic example of IAF supports for Tejas.

Earlier, Tejas was given clearance for deployment of armaments and other missiles. The Indian Air Force (IAF) had ordered 40 Tejas Mark-1 version and a request for proposal (RFP) was issued to HAL by the IAF in December for procurement of another batch of 83 Tejas at a cost of around Rs 50,000 crore.
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/bvr-missile-test-fired-from-tejas/581423.html

December 2017 IAF sent out a RFP for 83 Tejas at a cost of 50,000 crore, which comes to around 600 crore a piece. But what we see on 2018? After HAL quoted a price of less then 500 crore a piece, IAF is yet to give a order for those. They are more concerned with BVR capability, AESA RADAR, IFR capability which was not even a part of original ASR which was created back in late 80's. Last ASQR changes was done in 2014. First of all IAF has to make a doctrine around the Tejas and then keep on adding capability on it as per need. But IAF literally wants a Mercedez at the price of a Maruti with performance of a Veyron and that too in a limited number.

What if HAL starts rolling out 16 numbers per year from next year? By 2020 they would be out of order and the production line would be idle. What if they don't get any further order after that? Who would endure the cost?

Moreover as I have already mentioned, what is the IAF doctrine or plan for Tejas? It is a second line of aircraft and obviously not going to perform air dominance role. Neither it would be used in a deep strike role. It would be used more in a defensive role. For that BVR capability is a logical step along with AESA. But AESA is something which could be incorporated as an advancement rather then FOC prerequisite. Moreover on term of IFR, it is a capability needed for air dominance and deep penetration role. Are we planning anything like that for Tejas? I think not because with its lower payload it is not built for that purpose.

On IN part, Adm Lanba said the most logical thing that development of a fighter jet does take time and thats the reason they are looking out for replacement. Now you could go along and make out whatever theory you want to make on this. But I have to see a sane comment like that from IAF.

It would be insane to compare Tejas with any front line fighter of today in respect to capability. Tejas is something which is first in almost all aspect for Indian aeronautical industry. But it would need support in its first step so that we could come up with something better tomorrow. Technically till date IAF has just order 20 Tejas and this meager number would mean that it would always remain more of an academic project rather then industrial.
 

Chinmoy

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I fail to understand why you & some other guys are replying to @Sancho. No matter how logical / practical / factual your post is, he is not going to accept.

The posts are being repetitive wrt information on Tejas LCA. The threads are going longer & longer without additional information.

In comparison, BRF threads have more facts/ info due to absence of such tu-tu=>main-main.

Sent from my ASUS_X00TD using Tapatalk
Because can't stand some absurd and illogical rantings.
 

Kharavela

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That doesn't make any sense. It's the responsibility of the developer / manufacturer, to develop things in time. It's not the responsibility of the customer, to plan with utter incompetence of the developer and manufacturing issues.

If you buy a new car and get promised delivery in Jan, you don't plan with delays, not working features, or plan the procurement with "buffer zone" either, so why should IAF do that?
Very correct, if one is buying from another entity having no relationship between them. But when you are buying from your own manufacturing entity or you are manufacturing yourself, you just don't have buyer-seller relationship. You ought to use your own product and improve it step-by-step.

Take example of F-35. Though LM had decades of expertise of manufacturing fighters, F-35 having several serious shortcomings. But instead of rejecting the fighter outrightly or making brouhaha about the shortcomings, USAF uses the fighter in operational role & pointing out the problems to LM. Gradually, F-35 program becoming more potent by correcting problems.
 

Kharavela

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Nobody complains about not having an edge, simply because everyone knows, that Indian industry is not able to deliver high tech arms or techs. The issue is, that we can't even provide basic things on our own sor far.
Please tell me "Which fighter aircraft has the goodies IAF is demanding on FOC version of LCA ? All of these four in any fighter aircraft operated by IAF(AESA radar, IFR probe, BVR firing capability and All-Glass cockpit) ?
 

no smoking

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Take example of F-35. Though LM had decades of expertise of manufacturing fighters, F-35 having several serious shortcomings. But instead of rejecting the fighter outrightly or making brouhaha about the shortcomings, USAF uses the fighter in operational role & pointing out the problems to LM. Gradually, F-35 program becoming more potent by correcting problems.
Completely different case:
1. Most of the so called "shortcoming" are the result of too high expectation. Americans want F-35 to be a "high tech" and "low cost" fighter jet. These 2 requirements contradict each other;
2. Even with these "shortcoming", F-35 is still one of the best fighter jets in the world. Her major rivals - Su-57 & J-20 are still miles behind. So, there is no problem that Americans stick to it;
3. Even if all F-35 have to stay on the ground, Americans still have enough 4 generational planes to crash anyone.
 

Sancho

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Without orders domestic aero-space industry wouldn't develop.
That's not correct, tech demonstrator programmes all over the world, are aimed on developments of technologies, but with limited financial expenditures and no mass production. So if your aim is only, to improve the capability in R&D, such a programme is all that we need => NLCA MK1.

However, when you aim the development with mass production in mind, you need to comply to the operational requirements of the customer. If that isn't achieved, there will only be limited or no orders => Arjun, LCA MK1 IOC/FOC.

Not to mention that, Make in India / production of foreign products in India, also improves our manufacturing capability, even if the product is not ordered by Indian forces.
 

Kay

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Folks - remember, the Eurofighter was jammed down the throat of Luftwaffe ignoring the operational requirements and advice. That is all you need to know - do not be deceived by opportunists and people with vested interests.
 

Sancho

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Going by your logic, India has always been on war since its independence.
India doesn't need to be in a war, the goal for the forces, is to be prepared for one! You don't wait for it to happen and then start adding capability somehow.

So how many jets were ordered? 20. But then again IAF was concerned about overweight and engine performance even after the ASR which was formulated back in 1989. So if IAF's ASR was ready so long back, why hadn't they been onboard its development process if they were supporting it. Why wait till the first flight and for 2005 after you order the initial batch?
Fist of all, 40 are on order so far, 20 x IOC and 20 x FOC.
Secondly, what do you mean with waiting for the first flight? They evaluated what ADA developed and came to the conclusion that it doesn't meet the requirements. Just as IN, who were part of the NLCA development, evaluated the fighter after it was available and came to the same conclusions. Both IAF and IN are dependent on what ADA/HAL provides them. The forces only set the general guide lines, they don't draw, design and produce the product.

IAF wanted Tejas to have BVR capability back in 2002 when it was just taking test flight. Fine. But the first Derby started arriving in India by 2008 and then IAF wanted Tejas to complete FOC by 2013 where firing a BVR was a prerequisite.
Again a lot of false statement's. IAF wanted R73/R77 initially, because those missiles were available. Early LCAs even used R60s for test flights, but just as R60 was replaced over time, the long delay in the LCA programme, caused standard modernisation of systems and weapons in IAF and since no indigenous alternatives were available, foreign radar, EW and weapons need to be integrated. Imagine FOC would still wait for Astra, which also is only in LSP so far and how that would have led to more delays.

Expecting all this to be done in a 5 year time frame is unrealistic on part of IAF.
Not if the developer knows what he does, or has experienced development partners at hand. Nobody forced ADA to do everything on their own, CAG even blamed ADA, for not listening to EADS/Airbus, who were hired as a consultant, but their suggestions were particularly ignored, because ADA thought they know it better.

The second batch of 20 LCA was forced feed to IAF literally by M Parrikar and its result was the 2nd and third production line for expedite production process.
Not really, the 20 x FOC were ordered in 2010 under UPA and again, IAF approves the capabilities of the product and therefore the MK1A standard, not MoD. So without IAF support, the Tejas programme would be dead by now.

But AESA is something which could be incorporated as an advancement rather then FOC prerequisite. Moreover on term of IFR, it is a capability needed for air dominance and deep penetration role.
Both incorrect. FOC will get the same pulse doppler radar as IOC, only MK1A and later MK2, will get AESA, because that's the state of the art radar technology today. That's why IAF upgraded Jaguar from the same pulse doppler radar, probably to the same AESA radar as well. No fighter upgrade or new order that comes now, will have less than AESA radar technology.
Also IFR is crucial for air defence fighters as well, to extend the endurance of a patrol mission. Same reason why, Mig 29 or Mirage 2000 added that capability too. Any modern 4th gen fighter has IFR capability, so let's not pretend, that IAF asked for something highly advanced here.

On IN part, Adm Lanba said the most logical thing that development of a fighter jet does take time and thats the reason they are looking out for replacement.
That's not all what he said =>
"The indigenous aircraft carrier is due to be inducted in 2020. I need deck-based jet fighters by then. The LCA Navy is nowhere on the horizon. At present, it cannot be operated from the deck. It still has to go through carrier compatibility trials; it is underpowered; it cannot take off with ordnance. I need a fighter which can operate from an aircraft carrier and is combat-capable," he said.

"It is a good plane to fly, but what I need is a deck-based fighter that is combat- capable.
https://wap.business-standard.com/a...-navy-by-2022-sunil-lanba-117120100940_1.html

That was probably the most honest assessment of any official, not only addressing the delays, but also it's operational shortfalls. The max official criticism of IAF, was calling it a Mig 21++, or 3.5 gen fighter, just as stating that LCA is not good enough to defend India alone.
 
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Sancho

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But when you are buying from your own manufacturing entity or you are manufacturing yourself, you just don't have buyer-seller relationship.
Of course you have, because the product is not of IAF? The forces are customers, the developers and manufacturers are the seller's, no matter if it's an indigenous or foreign product.

Take example of F-35. Though LM had decades of expertise of manufacturing fighters, F-35 having several serious shortcomings. But instead of rejecting the fighter outrightly or making brouhaha about the shortcomings, USAF uses the fighter in operational role & pointing out the problems to LM. Gradually, F-35 program becoming more potent by correcting problems.
First of all, they have made plenty of complaints and secondly they don't have a choice. F35 is meant to replace multiple fighters in the fleet and the F22 production is closed. So they have to push through no matter what, although they would prefer to keep the A10, or as Israeli Air Force, consider upgraded F15. Even USN, prefers more F18s, rather than F35 alone. So that situation is not comparable it LCA, which is only meant to replace 1 type and at the lower end only and even that is not possible today. Let Japan develop an F22/F35 hybrid and you will see how fast F35 customers get out of this mess.
 

Sancho

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. The superior performance of LCA-Tejas Mk1 in Air-to-Ground Missions over established Strike aircraft like Jaguar fighter-bomber really worked wonders for the indigenous program according to Nambiar
Confirms what other IAF officials stated, without being named and shows the good and the bad side of IOC.
 

Kharavela

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Of course you have, because the product is not of IAF? The forces are customers, the developers and manufacturers are the seller's, no matter if it's an indigenous or foreign product.
Are IAF, HAL, ADA working primarily towards defending a single country or different countries ? If your answer is same country, then cut the crap of customer - developer - manufacturer. All three agencies have to do their bit to develop indigenous systems.

First of all, they have made plenty of complaints
IAF is also expected to induct & use LCA Tejas & make plenty of complains to make next batch of LCA more potent and lethal.

secondly they don't have a choice. F35 is meant to replace multiple fighters in the fleet and the F22 production is closed. So they have to push through no matter what, although they would prefer to keep the A10, or as Israeli Air Force, consider upgraded F15. Even USN, prefers more F18s, rather than F35 alone. So that situation is not comparable it LCA, which is only meant to replace 1 type and at the lower end only and even that is not possible today.
If replacing MiG 21 is the question, please tell me that MiG 21 aircraft is capable of BVR firing, can switch from A2A mission to A2G mission, has Fly-by-Wire systems etc. The list can go on & on.

Lastly, in my personal opinion, IAF should be divided between IA & IN. Wars are either fought on land or sea. Air above land would be defended by air arm of IA & air above sea would be defended by air arm of IN. Problem solved.
 

Filtercoffee

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Kharavela how about MiG 21s with latest tailor made avionics, radar, EW suite, IFR, new materials added to the airframe and a full glass cockpit with a new engine for super cruise? Easiest way to retain the fleet.
 
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HariPrasad-1

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Kharavela how about MiG 21s with latest tailor made avionics, radar, EW suite, IFR, new materials added to the airframe and a full glass cockpit with a new engine for super cruise? Easiest way to retain the fleet.
WHat old stuff will remain in Mig 21 thereafter?
 

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