ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

johnj

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Brahmos-2 will not copy zircon. It is a joint venture development so it will get tech from both DRDO as well as NPOM. Obviously NPOM part of tech will be derived from Zircon but DRDO part will be indigenously and separately developed. HCM is a difficult tech and none has mastered it yet. Even russia hasnt used it in ukraine war.
NO, like Brahmos, Brahmos 2 is a copy of Russian missile - current status unknown
DRDO also developing hypersonic tech, which is not directly related to Brahmos co.
ISRO having two hypersonic programs, which is independent of DRDO
Total 4 plus hypersonic pgrms in India.
If DRDO develop hypersonic cruise missile all by itself, then there is no brahmos2, and no need to share ip/loyalty/fee with Russians
 

Arpuster

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NO, like Brahmos, Brahmos 2 is a copy of Russian missile - current status unknown
DRDO also developing hypersonic tech, which is not directly related to Brahmos co.
ISRO having two hypersonic programs, which is independent of DRDO
Total 4 plus hypersonic pgrms in India.
If DRDO develop hypersonic cruise missile all by itself, then there is no brahmos2, and no need to share ip/loyalty/fee with Russians
Brahmos 2 wont be simply copy of russian missile. Current Brahmos Aerospace Chief has clearly stated in recent seminars and interviews that technology bricks for Brahmos 2 will be provided by both DRDO and NPOM. As and when that will be ready, Brahmos Aerospace will start integrating brahmos 2 missile.
 

johnj

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Brahmos 2 wont be simply copy of russian missile. Current Brahmos Aerospace Chief has clearly stated in recent seminars and interviews that technology bricks for Brahmos 2 will be provided by both DRDO and NPOM. As and when that will be ready, Brahmos Aerospace will start integrating brahmos 2 missile.
Its doesn't mean DRDO providing 50% of tech, don't forget P8I, C130 etc also using DRDO tech, that doesn't mean those are JV, likewise DRDO providing minimal tech, not a big thing to say, and DRDO involvement is necessary to integrate missile into ships, land systems and its basically Russian missile, on the other hand DRDO developing their own hypersonic missile. Right now brahmos co is busy with brahmos ng. Maybe India ditch brahmos2 in favor of DRDO hypersonic missile
What Brahmos Aerospace Chief said is the idea of acquiring tech from both Russia and DRDO hypersonic pgrms in future
 

Arpuster

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Its doesn't mean DRDO providing 50% of tech, don't forget P8I, C130 etc also using DRDO tech, that doesn't mean those are JV, likewise DRDO providing minimal tech, not a big thing to say, and DRDO involvement is necessary to integrate missile into ships, land systems and its basically Russian missile, on the other hand DRDO developing their own hypersonic missile.
Integrating missile on platforms are not technology bricks required for development of missile. U should first watch those interviews and seminar. No were anyone has said that Brahmos-2 will be purely zircon copy. It will borrow some tech for sure but not completely.
What Brahmos Aerospace Chief said is the idea of acquiring tech from both Russia and DRDO hypersonic pgrms in future
He clearly stated it for Brahmos-2. Ofcourse the same will be applied in all future programs.
 
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johnj

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Integrating missile on platforms are not technology bricks required for development of missile. U should first watch those interviews and seminar. No were anyone has said that Brahmos-2 will be purely zircon
Yes it is, especially for SAMs. In this case I said involvement not hypersonic tech. Brahmos Aerospace Co use DRDO expertise in hypersonic fields, Russian hypersonic tech 100%, satnav, INS etc, DRDO provide seeker, INS, stanav, warhead systems, INS etc, if you consider hypersonic missile, its Russian. Don't forget there ia a lots of difference b/w yankot & brahmos
He clearly stated it for Brahmos-2. Ofcourse the same will be applied in all future programs
What else he can say, its like IAF talking about MMRCA/MRFA but at the end GOI decides.
There is no point of buying a missile for aboard when it already exists in India
Most of Indo-Russian pgrms were cancelled or stuck due to a lots of reasons, which include MTA, FGFA, super Sukhoi, Ka226T, etc and status of brahmos 2 is unknown.
Also India to get deadly Zircon missile technology from Russia, may develop BrahMos-II
 

FactsPlease

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In case NO one want to say it frankly...
in addition to upgrading industry level & build up a complete MIC ecosystem, i.e. a grand strategy toward national economy development, key point of so-called "indigenous" is: as long as we need, we can go to manufacture it at our own will. Or, at critical national security and we have the political will to violate IP, nothing will hamper our ability to defend ourselves (remember the lesson of semiconductor for Russia and "hollow-up" of NATO MIC capacity).
Regarding BrahMos or hypersonic, either I or II or NG, above principle should be the criteria for us to tag it as "indigenous" - and in BrahMos case, I believe quantity, a huge one, can give us some strategic edge.
We need to be honest to any factor that jeopardize this capability. Period.
 
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stat231

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There were reports from some defence handles on twitter that mk2 has been coupled is this true?
 

jai jaganath

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There were reports from some defence handles on twitter that mk2 has been coupled is this true?
Can u provide the source
And most probably may be bcoz by jun-jul it was scheduled for France for some testing I forgot
 

MonaLazy

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Doval-Sullivan deals to power PM Modi’s historic visit to US
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Jun 13, 2023 09:05 AM IST
US NSA Jake Sullivan is in the capital today to finalize the agreements that will be penned during PM Modi’s state visit to the US next week.
US National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan will call upon Prime Minister Narendra Modi today even as he will sit with his Indian counterpart Ajit Doval to hammer out future multi-pronged bilateral cooperation including a USD 2.7 billion semiconductor chip-making facility in India by Idaho-based Micron Technology, sharing of high-performance quantum computing technology and finalize the manufacturing of US aircraft engines in India. Sullivan will also be meeting External Affairs Minister S Jaishankar.

National Security Advisor Ajit Doval with his US counterpart Jake Sullivan.
National Security Advisor Ajit Doval with his US counterpart Jake Sullivan.
Sullivan’s visit to India comes on the eve of PM Modi’s state visit to the US next week with both natural allies all set to push the bilateral cooperation to the next level. Accompanied by US Indo-Pacific Coordinator at the National Security Council Kurt Campbell, the US NSA will also discuss the situation in the Indo-Pacific in the wake of increasing Chinese assertiveness over Taiwan and the South China Sea. The recent incident of a Chinese warship making a dangerous and deliberate pass across the bows of a US-guided missile destroyer in the South China Sea has caused major concern among Quad countries.

It is understood that while the US State Department bureaucracy with its past legacy was resisting intensifying defence and hi-tech cooperation with India, it is the Pentagon and NSA Sullivan who have pushed the agenda to make PM Modi’s forthcoming visit to the US historic. Fact is that the US has never shared aircraft engine technology for manufacturing in a third country including the “hot engine” technology with even their closest ally. Despite the State Department trying to place hurdles, the Pentagon and National Security Council under Sullivan have ensured that 100 per cent transfer of technology for the manufacture of GE’s F-414 engine is possible in India. It is the same engine that will empower DRDO’s designed and developed Tejas Mark II fighter, which will form the backbone of the Indian Air Force’s capability. India is also looking towards US defence majors to manufacture high-end ammunition like loiter bombs, air-to-air missiles and long-range guided artillery bombs in the country.

While chip makers like Micron Technology have taken a decision to invest in manufacturing in India, the Modi government is looking at top semiconductor chip makers like Intel Corporation to come to India to establish a global supply chain that is not dependent on China or Taiwan only.

Both the NSAs will also discuss sharing of US technology with India on quantum computing for processing gazillion data collected all over the country as well as technology to make Indian critical infrastructure protected from cyber attacks from China and Pakistan.

Besides, the two sides will be deepening cooperation in the fields of telecommunication, 6G technologies, rare earth metals mining and in space. The two NSAs covered all the above grounds for cooperation during the meeting on initiative on Critical and Emerging Technologies (iCET) in Washington on January 31, 2023 and the required amendments to rules to translate these deals on ground were discussed during the first India-US Strategic Trade Dialogue meeting last week.

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ABOUT THE AUTHOR

Author of Indian Mujahideen: The Enemy Within (2011, Hachette) and Himalayan Face-off: Chinese Assertion and Indian Riposte (2014, Hachette). Awarded K Subrahmanyam Prize for Strategic Studies in 2015 by Manohar Parrikar Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses (MP-IDSA) and the 2011 Ben Gurion Prize by Israel.
 

kamaal

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Slowly and silently the rollout date for MK2 is being sent back to late 2025, showing complete failure of ADA leadership.
Source : New defense articles have stopped quoting late 2024 timeline.
 

no smoking

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Be aware of the fact: it took Russians 5-6 years to add canard on their Su-30 after their Su-30 entered service even though they already had other plane with canard designing experience before that.
Considering Indian scientists had much less experience in aerodynamic design comparing to Russians and zero experience of canard before MK2, the time should be much longer.

So, my guess is: when ADA made up the timeline, they probably believed that French would provide some help in aerodynamic outfit (who had plenty experiences in this), but the deal wasn't settled successfully.
 

silverghost

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Slowly and silently the rollout date for MK2 is being sent back to late 2025, showing complete failure of ADA leadership.
Source : New defense articles have stopped quoting late 2024 timeline.
It is ADA's loss. The IAF top brass would like nothing better than to declare Mk2 as a failure & recommend that India buy Gripen NG or F21 in large nos. Both Lockheed Martin & Saab will offer JV to HAL. So, HAL will be fine either way. The only loser would be ADA.
 

MonaLazy

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www.firstpost.com/opinion/how-military-aviation-is-the-greatest-beneficiary-of-indo-us-relations-push-12728372.html

How military aviation is the greatest beneficiary of Indo-US relations push
The US needs India to counter-balance China, dominate the Indian Ocean, and act as a democratic pillar. The future will see greater defence cooperation between the two largest and most powerful democracies

Air Marshal Anil Chopra June 12, 2023 19:00:33 IST
How military aviation is the greatest beneficiary of Indo-US relations push

Boeing C 17 Globemaster. Image Courtesy: IAF
Yet another major step is being taken to boost the India-US strategic relations. The two sides have cleared the decks for co-producing the GE-F414 fighter aircraft engine in India. It will go on-board India’s indigenous LCA ‘Tejas’ Mk II and other future fighters. The formal signing is likely during Indian PM Modi’s US visit later this month. It is expected to involve 100 percent transfer of technology (ToT).
The United States contingent at this year’s Aero India 2023 was one of the largest ever. For the first time a fifth-generation aircraft had not only been brought to an Indian airshow but also performed the flying display. The U.S. defence sales in the last over a decade have mostly been in the military aviation sector. Having already sold transport aircraft and helicopters, the pitch now is to push an American fighter and other technologies and components into the Indian defence ecosystem.
Complexities of an aero-engine
WATCH: Indigenously developed torpedo successfully engages underwater target

The aircraft engine is one of the most complex systems on-board. It has to operate efficiently from sea level to near stratosphere levels, under changing atmospheric pressure. The aircraft operate from zero speed to many times the speed of sound. The fighter aircraft are subjected to very high ‘g’ forces, and aerobatic maneuvers including negative ‘g’ flight. The aircraft engine compressor and turbines operate at many thousand revolutions per minute (RPM). The engine turbine temperatures cross 2,000 degree centigrade. All this requires very special design and materials. The engine life could be a few thousand hours of operation. More often the aircraft engine costs nearly one-third the total cost of the aircraft. The aircraft engine is much more complex than the rocket engines that launch satellites into space.
Engine for LCA
India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation’s (DRDO) Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) has been struggling to make aero-engine for nearly four decades. The home-grown ‘Kaveri’ engine which was to power the LCA had to be delinked from the aircraft because of developmental delays and technology hurdles. Finally the American GE F404-GE-IN20 was selected to power the LCA Mk 1 and Mk 1A. Later it was decided to have the more powerful GE F414 – INS6 engine for LCA Mk II. This may also power the initial Indian fifth-generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).
Top aero engine manufacturers
There are just a handful of aircraft engine manufacturers in the world. The top four engine manufacturers are GE Aviation, Pratt & Whitney, Rolls Royce, & Safran. GE and Safran of France have a joint venture (JV) called CFM International. Pratt & Whitney also has a JV called International Aero Engines with Japanese Aeroengine Corporation and MTU Aero Engines of Germany. Pratt & Whitney and General Electric have a JV, Engine Alliance selling a range of engines for large airliners like Airbus 380. There are others like Honeywell Aerospace which make smaller engines for regional/executive jets and UAVs. Most engine manufacturers make engines for both civil and military aircraft. Russia makes both fighter and large transport aircraft engines, but depends on Western companies for their airliner engines. China has been trying to reverse engineer Russian jet engines, but they continue to face hurdles. They too use Western engines for their civil aircraft. India has been manufacturing and overhauling Russian and Western fighter engines under license agreements.
Criticality of aero-engine technology for India
Over the last few decades, India has mastered designing and building aero-structures for both fixed wing and rotary wing aircraft. India is also manufacturing airborne radars, avionics and weapons. The aero-engine being much more complex and despite years of licensed production, India has not been able to successfully design one of its own. The handful of manufacturers keep their cards very close to the chest and are unwilling to share technologies that they have acquired after years of research and investment. The only easy way to get these is through JV. Such engine JVs are normally between geo-strategic friends and involve political capital investment. To what level will the technology be actually transferred would emerge after the fine-print is read.
US-India strategic congruence and Quad connection

The US interests to contain competitor and possible rival China brought India into USA’s Indo-Pacific strategy. India, a long-term friend of now weakened Russia, needed US cooperation on global security matters; support for inclusion of India in United Nations Security Council (UNSC); and admission into multilateral export control regimes like Nuclear Suppliers Group, MTCR, Wassenaar Arrangement, and Australia Group. Post 2000, the USA became more open to selling high-end military equipment to India. In 2016, India and USA signed the Logistics Exchange Memorandum of Agreement (LEMOA) and India was declared a major defence partner of the USA. In September 2018 India and USA signed the Communications Compatibility and Security Agreement (COMCASA), thus increasing interoperability between militaries. The agreement allows India to procure and transfer specialized equipment for encrypted communications for US origin military platforms, thus improving operational efficiency. Basic Exchange and Cooperation Agreement, the last of the key foundational agreements was signed in 2020.
India is an important member of Quad now. All the four partners have regular summit level and 2+2 minister level meetings. There are military logistics agreements between all, and they all take part in regular military exercises. Among the increasing cooperation in defence, aviation has seen the fastest results.
How military aviation is the greatest beneficiary of IndoUS relations push
C 130 J super Hercules. Image Source: IAF
US military aircraft in India
IAF acquired the Lockheed Martin (LM) C-130J-30 Super Hercules aircraft in 2008 for special operations under US government’s Foreign Military Sales (FMS) program. The Indian Navy received the Boeing P-8I Poseidon for maritime surveillance, Electronic Intelligence (ELINT), anti-submarine warfare (ASW) roles. In 2009, the IAF inducted three specially equipped Boeing 737 Business Jet (BBJ) for VVIP duties. Boeing C-17 Globemaster III strategic airlift military transport aircraft were inducted next. Two custom-made B-777 were procured to replace the older Air India B-747 jumbo jets for VVIP duties. Boeing Apache Longbow AH-64E attack helicopters, and Boeing CH-47 D/F Chinook heavy-lift helicopters formed the rotary-wing purchases. In June 2017, the US State Department approved the sale of 22 General Atomics MQ-9 Guardian/Predator-B long-range unmanned combat aerial vehicle (UCAV) drones to India. Two have been on lease with the Indian Navy since 2020. The case for procuring 10 each for the three armed forces is under processing. There is a possibility that a contract may be inked during the Indian PM’s forthcoming visit.
Boeing presence in India
Boeing has been a major player in India’s commercial aviation sector, and Air India has recently announced a huge airliner order. Boeing also has a significant presence in aforesaid military aircraft. Boeing’s F-18 Super hornet is vying for IAF (114 fighter program) and Indian Navy’s (57 carrier aircraft) contracts.
A public-private partnership brings together Boeing, Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) and Mahindra’s global scale, manufacturing and supply chain expertise. HAL has been the single-source producer of 757 over-wing exit doors. HAL has also manufactured the 777 up-lock boxes, F/A-18 gun bay doors, F/A-18 wire harnesses, P-8I weapons bay doors, and P-8I identification friend-or-foe transponders. BEL is also on contract to provide F/A-18 cockpit panels.
Boeing has invested in research and engineering centres at Bengaluru and Chennai with over 3,000 engineers. Boeing’s JV with Tata Advanced Systems Limited (TASL) is for aerospace and defence manufacturing including unmanned aerial systems. TASL is already manufacturing aero-structures for CH-47 Chinook and Apache helicopters, including for global customers.

How military aviation is the greatest beneficiary of IndoUS relations push
Indian Navy’s Boeing P8 I. Image Source: Indian Navy
Dynamatic Technologies (DTL) and Boeing have a plant to manufacture critical parts for Chinook helicopters, including ramp and pylons. Dynamatic Technologies and Tata Advanced Materials Limited (TAML) are making P-8I electric power sub-systems. Also, Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL), Electronics Corporation of India (ECIL), Hyderabad based Avantel Ltd have delivered sub-systems for P-8I.
Along with TAL Manufacturing Solutions Ltd Boeing is manufacturing floor beams for the Boeing 787-9 Dreamliner. TAL also makes ground support equipment for the C-17. Hyderabad-based Cyient currently provides design support on the 747-8 Freighter and some 787 variants.
Lockheed Martin pushing big in India

LM is the world’s biggest arms manufacturer, and manufacturer of top fighter aircraft like the F-16, F-22 and F-35. Their JV with TASL makes a large number of aero-structures and precision components for the C-130J airlifter and the S-92 helicopter for deliveries to customers around the world.
LM F-21 aircraft (advanced version of F-16) is a contender for IAF’s Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft (MRFA) program. 2250 F-16s are still flying globally. TASL has been chosen to produce the F-16s in India. Meanwhile, F-16 wings are being manufactured and exported from the Hyderabad facility. 24 Sikorsky multi-role MH-60R Seahawk maritime helicopters are under induction with the Indian Navy. Additionally, LM has signed MoUs with many Indian start-ups to boost India’s aerospace and defence industry.
How military aviation is the greatest beneficiary of IndoUS relations push
Indian Navy’s Sikorsky MH-60 R Seahawk. Image: Indian Navy
General Electric (GE)
GE is an American multinational that operates in aviation, healthcare, renewable energy, and transportation, among many others. GE’s presence in India dates back to 1902 when they installed India’s first hydropower plant. GE Aviation is the world’s leading producer of large and small engines for commercial, military, business and general aircraft. GE’s aircraft engines power all the LCA variants. GE’s CFM56 engines power the Indian Navy’s P-8I. Some of GE systems are deployed on various Indian platforms including the Hawk Mk 132, SEPECAT Jaguar, P-8I, C130J and HJT-36 Sitara. GE has joined with Tata group to make LEAP engines in India.
Military exercises and interoperability

The Indian and US armies regularly conduct exercise ‘Yudh-Abhyas’. USA, India, Japan, and some other navies participate in the annual exercise ‘Malabar’. Rim of the Pacific Exercise (RIMPAC) covers the broad expanse of the Indo-Pacific. ‘Cope India’ series of joint air exercises began in 2004. IAF participates in Red-Flag advanced air-combat training exercises in the US, and gets exposure to NATO-like air environment. The USA had great presence in the recent Pitch Black air-exercise in Australia where many countries fielded F-35s. All these exercises support interoperability.
Defence Technology and Trade Initiative (DTTI)
The India US Defence Technology and Trade Initiative (DTTI) began in 2012. DTTI supports and strengthens India’s defence industrial base, including exploring new areas of technological development. Among the ambitious projects identified was to share jet-engine technology. Focus is to support Indian start-ups and US-based research labs to work together on cutting edge defence technologies. Also explore possibilities for joint development with export potential. Cooperation in the field of space technology is also of interest.
Defence trade authorization and management
The United States has designated India as Strategic Trade Authorization-1 (STA-1) country that allows purchase of cutting-edge sensitive technologies from the USA. It brings India at par with the US’s closest allies and partners such as NATO, Japan, South Korea and Australia. India will thus receive license-free access to the wide range of dual-use technologies, with some export restrictions. This will also benefit US manufacturers. The US-India Business Council (USIBC) was formed in 1975. Aerospace & Defence are a major area of their engagement today. Bilateral defence trade which was near zero in 2008, was estimated to be around $22 billion by the end of 2022.
The India-US Defence Policy Group (DPG) in Washington is the top official-level meeting mechanism between India and the US on defence issues, which comprehensively reviews and guides all aspects of bilateral cooperation between the two countries. They monitor defence cooperation, technology, trade, and military-to-military engagements under different working groups.
Defence partnerships: The way ahead
India and the USA are the largest functioning democracies. There is very high people-to-people engagement with Indians occupying very high positions in most American corporations. The Indian diaspora has popularised Indian food, culture and festivals. Military-to-military engagements are on the rise and so is defence cooperation. Being a significant global power, India would like to maintain strategic autonomy. India will continue to be dependent on Russian military supplies for some more time. The USA is conscious of the ground realities.
Having already got into India’s transport and maritime aircraft, and helicopter sales ecosystem, the US is now keen to sell fighter aircraft. India also needs to get out of the huge Russian military systems basket, including aircraft. In the long-term India must induct more Indian platforms, and endeavour to have 30 per cent Russian, 30 per cent Western and 40 per cent Indian aircraft fleets by 2040. 114 foreign fighters may be one of the last major foreign aircraft purchases. India must take US support to make high-end airborne platforms in India. Aircraft engines are one such area. India must link the fighter aircraft selection to both Make-in-India and transfer of important technologies.
The USA has also been pushing for the Boeing KC-46 Flight Refuelling Aircraft (FRA). They are trying to strengthen the case that they will offer both ‘flying boom’ and ‘probe and drogue’ refuelling options, that are today required for India’s diverse fleets. The General Atomics Predator drones deal is expected to be inked soon, albeit with reduced numbers.
India is today in an enviable position where the Russians, Americans and Europeans are wooing her to be a geo-strategic partner, and also trying to get into its defence systems market. The US needs India to counter-balance China, dominate the Indian Ocean, and act as a democratic pillar. The future sees greater defence cooperation between the two largest and powerful democracies.
The writer is Director General, Centre for Air Power Studies. Views expressed are personal.
 

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