ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[Vamsi]

Are you saying that somehow that 200kg will be too high for a plane with MToW of 23tons and empty weight of 11tons? The engine is not a standalone part that will fly on its own. Also, the specifications for Kaveri are very old and hypothetical when it was not fully functional. The airflow of Kaveri being equal to F414 while producing 20% less thrust is suspicious. What is the extra air doing if not generating thrust? Is there air leakage in Kaveri?

Assuming that Kaveri will be a normal engine like any other, it should be able to replace M88 in Rafales similar to how Rafales used F404 for initial flight testing

Kaveri's OPR is 21 which is very less when compared to 30 of F414, hence low thrust, but increasing Kaveri's OPR to 30 & it's TET to 1850K will increase its dry thrust to 60KN, with a new afterburner it can achieve 98KN wet thrust .....Kaveri's current TET 1625K using single layer TBC & American blade material, it can be increased to 1850K, if Indigenous DMS4 blade is used along with Bi-layer TBC which is under development

 

[jai jaganath]

@MonaLazy We have earlier manufactured RD-33, AL-31F engines,none of these helped us in development of Kaveri, thinking that screwdrivergiri of F414 will help us in future is foolishness, also quoting some media articles to prove that uncle Sam will give us 100% ToT is another level foolishness, uncle Sam will never give you this technology, the reason is very simple, giving India this complex technology is making India technologically independent, which means we will be threat to them in future, so they will NOT give us any technologies, it's just screwdrivergiri, everything else you see is poetry

After constant reading regarding these affairs
What I understood there exists multiple sorts of ToT
It might be in assembling, manufacturing tech, raw material stage license manufacturing, etc.
None of them is similar to ipr transfer which isn't logical for their side too
Other than ipr transfer any sort of ToT is Screwdriver-giri but but but raw material stage license manufacturing is most better option than other ToT bcoz we get limited know how compared to others
But it has few benefits atoeast spares being manufactured here improving serviceability and cost
Open to corrections but this is what I can interpret

 

[Samej Jangir]

Kaveri's OPR is 21 which is very less when compared to 30 of F414, hence low thrust, but increasing Kaveri's OPR to 30 & it's TET to 1850K will increase its dry thrust to 60KN, with a new afterburner it can achieve 98KN wet thrust .....Kaveri's current TET 1625K using single layer TBC & American blade material, it can be increased to 1850K, if Indigenous DMS4 blade is used along with Bi-layer TBC which is under development

I don't think Kaveri is using American blade material. Also, India already makes Al31F with 1700K TET and OPR 23. So, if anything, the Kaveri engine should have at least 1700K temperature and OPR 23. If OPR was significantly lower, the air intake should also be lower as less air is taken in due to lower compression. The extraordinarily high air intake of Kaveri raises some questions in this regards.

I find is suspicious that mere metallurgy is causing 30 years of delays considering the fact that India already has access to other engines and can easily look at the compositions and try to reverse engineer them. Reverse engineering RD33 engines, F404 engines should not take 30 years. There is more to it than merely metallurgy.

 

[Samej Jangir]

After constant reading regarding these affairs
What I understood there exists multiple sorts of ToT
It might be in assembling, manufacturing tech, raw material stage license manufacturing, etc.
None of them is similar to ipr transfer which isn't logical for their side too
Other than ipr transfer any sort of ToT is Screwdriver-giri but but but raw material stage license manufacturing is most better option than other ToT bcoz we get limited know how compared to others
But it has few benefits atoeast spares being manufactured here improving serviceability and cost
Open to corrections but this is what I can interpret

Raw material stage manufacturing is IPR transfer itself. India has IPR of Al31F engines, for example. The only reason india does not sell them is due to relations with Russia.

 

[jai jaganath]

Raw material stage manufacturing is IPR transfer itself. India has IPR of Al31F engines, for example. The only reason india does not sell them is due to relations with Russia.

I have read it somewhere that ipr transfer != raw material stage license manufacturing
There is some difference which makes them different let me find that article even was shared by some member too

 

[MirageBlue]

ToT mostly refers to the following:

-Transfer of manufacturing and repair manuals, along with training in various processes required to be followed.
-Training of individuals for manufacturing processes (not design knowhow)
-Transfer of tooling as well as help in creating new tooling for manufacturing and repair
-Setting up the assembly line to mimic the processes followed at the OEM
-Regular audits and support for any issues that may arise in any of the processes
-Certification of the new assembly line and processes to follow the same standard as the OEM

None of this is trivial and for some reason almost all jingos call this "screwdriver giri" in a derogatory way. Expecting any more than this is foolhardy because unless the OEM sends its employees and facilities to India for the duration of the next program, there cannot be anything more than this done.

But if this is not done then HAL, IAF and the IN will NOT be able to maintain a large fleet of F-414 equipped Tejas Mk2, TEDBF and AMCA Mk1. Just look at the Su-30MKI program to see how many AL-31FP engines HAL has built, overhauled and repaired. It'll be thousand plus overall for a fleet of 270 MKIs. The Tejas Mk2, TEDBF and AMCA Mk1 numbers will almost exceed that in total fleet size eventually.

 

[Vamsi]

I don't think Kaveri is using American blade material. Also, India already makes Al31F with 1700K TET and OPR 23. So, if anything, the Kaveri engine should have at least 1700K temperature and OPR 23. If OPR was significantly lower, the air intake should also be lower as less air is taken in due to lower compression. The extraordinarily high air intake of Kaveri raises some questions in this regards.

I find is suspicious that mere metallurgy is causing 30 years of delays considering the fact that India already has access to other engines and can easily look aut the compositions and try to reverse engineer them. Reverse engineering RD33 engines, F404 engines should not take 30 years. There is more to it than merely metallurgy.

CMSX-4/N6 is currently being used for Kaveri's HPT blade

Kaveri's TET is 1625K (the red ones in the below pic are Kaveri specs)

 

[Vamsi]

I don't think Kaveri is using American blade material. Also, India already makes Al31F with 1700K TET and OPR 23. So, if anything, the Kaveri engine should have at least 1700K temperature and OPR 23. If OPR was significantly lower, the air intake should also be lower as less air is taken in due to lower compression. The extraordinarily high air intake of Kaveri raises some questions in this regards.

I find is suspicious that mere metallurgy is causing 30 years of delays considering the fact that India already has access to other engines and can easily look at the compositions and try to reverse engineer them. Reverse engineering RD33 engines, F404 engines should not take 30 years. There is more to it than merely metallurgy.

Kaveri has 21 OPR,it's official data, even though Kaveri has 21 OPR compared to that of AL-31F's 23, it has less compressor stages compared to AL-31F, thus Kaveri's compressors are more efficient than that of AL-31F's

You should not compare Kaveri with AL-31F, mass flow rate for both engines are different hence different thrust

as per BRF guys, GTRE actually planned to develop a AL-31F class engine called "Ganga" using Kaveri's core, developing similar thrust to AL-31F

 

[Samej Jangir]

I have read it somewhere that ipr transfer != raw material stage license manufacturing
There is some difference which makes them different let me find that article even was shared by some member too

There is technical difference - IPR means official ownership whereas raw material stage manufacturing means unofficial ownership. But this is purely a trust factor based relation and has no hard difference.

ToT mostly refers to the following:

-Transfer of manufacturing and repair manuals, along with training in various processes required to be followed.
-Training of individuals for manufacturing processes (not design knowhow)
-Transfer of tooling as well as help in creating new tooling for manufacturing and repair
-Setting up the assembly line to mimic the processes followed at the OEM
-Regular audits and support for any issues that may arise in any of the processes
-Certification of the new assembly line and processes to follow the same standard as the OEM

None of this is trivial and for some reason almost all jingos call this "screwdriver giri" in a derogatory way. Expecting any more than this is foolhardy because unless the OEM sends its employees and facilities to India for the duration of the next program, there cannot be anything more than this done.

But if this is not done then HAL, IAF and the IN will NOT be able to maintain a large fleet of F-414 equipped Tejas Mk2, TEDBF and AMCA Mk1. Just look at the Su-30MKI program to see how many AL-31FP engines HAL has built, overhauled and repaired. It'll be thousand plus overall for a fleet of 270 MKIs. The Tejas Mk2, TEDBF and AMCA Mk1 numbers will almost exceed that in total fleet size eventually.

Considering that India already makes all the assemblies, tooling etc, it is trivial and ridiculous to again ask for these "TOTs". Only those TOTs where India lacks the knowledge is useful.

 

[Samej Jangir]

CMSX-4/N6 is currently being used for Kaveri's HPT blade

View attachment 207883

Kaveri's TET is 1625K (the red ones in the below pic are Kaveri specs)

View attachment 207884

Which presentation is this? When was the date this was shown?

 

[MonaLazy]

Are you saying that somehow that 200kg will be too high for a plane with MToW of 23tons and empty weight of 11tons? The engine is not a standalone part that will fly on its own. Also, the specifications for Kaveri are very old and hypothetical when it was not fully functional. The airflow of Kaveri being equal to F414 while producing 20% less thrust is suspicious. What is the extra air doing if not generating thrust? Is there air leakage in Kaveri?

Assuming that Kaveri will be a normal engine like any other, it should be able to replace M88 in Rafales similar to how Rafales used F404 for initial flight testing

For your kind info, Rafale does not have air brakes- at least not in the conventional sense. Can you fathom why? Why would the designers bother with saving just 150 kgs of dead weight??

 

[NutCracker]

Which presentation is this? When was the date this was shown?

Bottom of the screenshot:
Jan-2022

 

[johnj]

The purpose of this deal is to make everything in-house in India by GE in partnership with HAL. That's it! Probably GE India will make all the hot parts at their factory in Pune and HAL the cold parts. For the portion made at GE, the factory, workers, tooling, machinery and processes will be GE's & their global suppliers who will also set up shop in India. Think of it like Samsung/Apple making phones in India- and you buy it. You purchase it and you use it- but you can't make it by yourself because you don't have the wherewithal and even somebody as resourceful as GoI can't make copies of Samsung/Apple phones by law, because of IPR.

Let's wait on the fine print of the deal to emerge to settle these nagging issues- for now, Indian babudom take a bow- this deal is looking good for the country whichever way you look at it.

Samsung/Apple don't make phones, just assemble them..
Till date there is no such deal exists, and the only deal regarding f414 is- GE supply 15~17 engine and the rest 84~80 will be manufactured by HAL under 1billion US$, this assembling process is multiple times better than Samsung/Apple making phones in India.
If US Indian working on a new deal involving GE414, like you are saying, it take 3 or more years to conclude the deal, and its production starts only after first deal completes, and still we don't know how much it cost and if US ask 5billion $ or more, then GoI forced reconsider French offer

 

[MonaLazy]

CMSX-4/N6 is currently being used for Kaveri's HPT blade

View attachment 207883

Kaveri's TET is 1625K (the red ones in the below pic are Kaveri specs)

View attachment 207884

Can you share the source of this knowledge please?

 

[Vamsi]

Which presentation is this? When was the date this was shown?

Jan 2022

 

[Vamsi]

Can you share the source of this knowledge please?

I have already posted those screenshots, it's from a GTRE presentation leaked online in Jan 2022, the man in those pics in top right corner is the then GTRE director

 

[MonaLazy]

Samsung/Apple don't make phones, just assemble them..

https://www.outlookindia.com/business/apple-supplier-foxconn-may-start-constructing-bengaluru-plant-in-may-report-news-277842

 

[johnj]

https://www.outlookindia.com/business/apple-supplier-foxconn-may-start-constructing-bengaluru-plant-in-may-report-news-277842

Its Foxconn & majority of parts imported from china, Korea & Taiwan for assembling. If you consider entire manufacturing process of iphones, it need 6 to 10 bil $ worth of different plants, not 8000 cr INR
Good new is Apple can now open Apple shore in India due to this. Foxconn is a major assembler.
Worst part of this plants are, if it suddenly closes, most of its workers become unemployed, and hard to find new jobs, becz they only knew to screwdriver a smartphone, eg TN nokia plant shutdown
What about total cost of engine tech tot, which you are talking about ?

 

[MonaLazy]

Its Foxconn & majority of parts imported from china, Korea & Taiwan for assembling.

That is as true of Made in China products too. If a Xiaomi phone has a Samsung AMOLED and a Sony camera sensor then they will be imported from South Korea and Japan- is that a problem?

In this case, GE is talking to its suppliers in Europe to move their production to India- possibly making India a big hub for manufacture and MRO of F414- it is going into F-18, Boramae, QueSST & Gripen E/F besides Mk2/AMCA I/TEDBF.

Also, the 98kN F414 and 120kN AMCA II engines are not totally de-linked.

GE eyes multi-billion dollar engine deal with India for fighter jet programs

While the design of the aircraft manufacturing is rapidly progressing under the AMCA and TEDBF project. Now, the engine manufacturer is promising to provide HAL with the technology. In order to participate in the Indian future fighter lead design manufacture, GE is now prepared to express its...

jetlinemarvel.net

swarajyamag.com/economy/india-america-and-energy

Do you still think they are discussing the assembling deal from 2010?

 

[johnj]

That is as true of Made in China products too. If a Xiaomi phone has a Samsung AMOLED and a Sony camera sensor then they will be imported from South Korea and Japan- is that a problem?

In this case, GE is talking to its suppliers in Europe to move their production to India- possibly making India a big hub for manufacture and MRO of F414- it is going into F-18, Boramae, QueSST & Gripen E/F.

Also, the 98kN F414 and 120kN AMCA II engines are not totally de-linked.

GE eyes multi-billion dollar engine deal with India for fighter jet programs

While the design of the aircraft manufacturing is rapidly progressing under the AMCA and TEDBF project. Now, the engine manufacturer is promising to provide HAL with the technology. In order to participate in the Indian future fighter lead design manufacture, GE is now prepared to express its...

jetlinemarvel.net

View attachment 207918

True
F18 production is going down, on the other hand India need large amount of GE engines for lca, around 300 plus jets, TEDBF around 100 jets and AMCA, around 50 plus jets and SK also need F414 and in future India become second largest major operator of GE f414. GE already made deal with HAL for MRO facility for GE404 engines and next step is = manufacturing of ge f414 with HAL
All these will help GE to play dominant role in both military and civilian markets in India.