ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[Roland55]

Wait a sec bro design is almost complete what does that mean wasn't that completed during cdr if it's not then have they prototype building or not
Just a query

Could it be that certain components are not ready? or they still need more time for them?

 

[MonaLazy]

Wait a sec bro design is almost complete what does that mean wasn't that completed during cdr if it's not then have they prototype building or not
Just a query

Only people closely involved with the program or those that are monitoring it can answer that. We can only twiddle our thumbs and wait for the 'roll-out' milestone.

Again relying on the unreliables-

Tejas MkII to get Air Intakes Certified at French Facility – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

Tejas MkII to get Air Intakes Certified at French Facility

7 April 2023

Tejas Mark II will be going through air intake test certification in France in May-June this year at the revered S1MA facility that is operated by France’s aerospace research agency Onera.

Computational fluid dynamics (CFD) are often used to test air intake design to collect data on AOA (angle of attack) and airflow at different speeds but such wind tunnel facilities are used to verify those data before aircraft production commences. S1MA facility is equipped with a Continuous-flow wind tunnel, for Atmospheric, Mach 0.05 to Mach 1 tests.


idrw.org has learned that each test campaign usually lasts some two to three weeks and per day cost ranges from Rs 8 lakhs per day for using such a facility. India at present doesn’t have such a facility since the Wind tunnel facility are expensive to build and sharing of technology is not allowed due to sovereignty issues of their respected Government.


Then there are multiple sources on the bird app reporting-

Air Intake Test Certification in #France before #Tejas Mk2 prototype is rolled out next year

#DRDO hopes to bag the certification in May-June this year as the air intakes of Mark II is similar to Mark I.

Lack of testing & certification facilities in India leads to delays in design & development of weapons.

Just In

DRDO is fully Confident to Roll out Tejas MK-2 by next year Completion of Air Intake test Certification in France by June this Year.

Since the most of design of Tejas MK-1 & MK-2 is similar with little bit changes
It's testing & devlopment will be easy.

CCS Headed by PM Modi has asked DRDO to stick to the Project timeline & avoid delays in the name of Tech demonstrator & first devlopment step. PM Modi want DRDO & IAF to ramp up the Squadron strength seeing China Growing Airforce fleet. Direct PMO intervention & look up is need

Spoiler: sauce

Tejas Mk2 Rollout in FY25-26 : HAL Chief – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

Tejas Mk2 Rollout in FY25-26 : HAL Chief

26 January 2023

C B Ananthakrishnan, CMD of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd In a report on 100knots.com, said that Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) gave sanctions for the development of the LCA-Mk2 last September and, HAL will be able to deliver the prototype in 2025-26 and it will have its first flight in 2026-27.

Ananthakrishnan claimed that 2500 crores already have been spent on the initial design work of the LCA-Mk2 and the program will get more than 6500 crores in the next few months to develop four prototypes that are earmarked to be used for developmental flight trials of the LCA-Mk2.


While it is not clear if the Rollout of the Prototype that was to happen later this year has been postponed and the first flight that was to happen in late 2024 or early 2025 will only happen in 2027.

Retired IAF captain Harsh Vardhan Thakur who is an experimental test pilot with HAL, commented on this issue and said that ” Contract is placed on manufacturer only after CCS approval. Every aircraft takes >36 months to manufacture. Delays from the manufacturer are charged with LD, which would show up in the annual report. Don’t believe anything else. “

CCS clearance that came in September 2022 and 36 months could mean that the LCA-Mk2 rollout is only possible in September 2025 and the first flight that usually takes place one year from the rollout might happen to be at the end of 2026



Since the 6500 crores for four Mk2 prototypes is held up until the jet engine deal is signed it is tough to predict what's going on.

 

[MonaLazy]

IAF must keep faith with Tejas Mk 2

In late August 2022, the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) accorded full sanction to the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA)’s Tejas Mk2 fighter project with a fresh allocation of Rs 6,500 crore. Coming some nine months after the Indian Air Force (IAF) endorsed the critical design review...

www.deccanherald.com

IAF must keep faith with Tejas Mk 2
Tejas Mk2’s upgraded features also make it a technological and industrial bridge to India’s fifth-generation advanced medium combat aircraft effort

Saurav Jha,

• FEB 27 2023, 23:08 IST
• UPDATED: FEB 28 2023, 01:35 IST

In late August 2022, the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) accorded full sanction to the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA)’s Tejas Mk2 fighter project with a fresh allocation of Rs 6,500 crore. Coming some nine months after the Indian Air Force (IAF) endorsed the critical design review (CDR) of the aircraft, the CCS approval was seen as a shot in the arm for the programme which could not have progressed towards prototyping, flight trials and certification with legacy allocations. However, the time taken in according to the fresh allocation and its eventual disbursement (apparently still in process), which themselves follow a tortuous CDR approval process, has meant that the first Tejas Mk2 prototype will be ‘rolled out’ only in 2024, delayed by over a year.
It is therefore essential that New Delhi does not compound these developmental delays by paring down the minimum order quantity for the Tejas Mk2, towards which recent statements by the IAF brass indicate. For this will only serve to breed disinterest in the potential supply chain for the project and negatively impact production rates. New Delhi should instead throw even greater weight behind this programme, which is a low-risk high-value proposition for the future of both India’s airpower and its aerospace industry.
If there is one lesson to learn from the Tejas Mk1 build programme, it is that separate and segregated orders only lead to a very slow rate of production, leaving Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) – the lead integrator for the Mk2 as well -- unable to both source and outsource long-lead components. Typically, international suppliers gave very little priority to HAL’s paltry purchase orders, and potential domestic suppliers baulked at making the investments needed to service the same.
Given that, the IAF’s statements till a couple of years ago -- that it had a requirement for 12 Tejas Mk2 squadrons (some 201 aircraft) -- had struck a welcome note for Indian industry since the potential order size represented sufficient economies of scale to enable better planning and faster delivery schedules. But more recent statements, including those made on the sidelines of Aero India 2023 earlier this month -- to the effect that the IAF was looking at only ‘six squadrons’ -- is likely to dampen the potential supply chain’s enthusiasm for the project which is supposed to start delivering series production units by 2028.
Worse, this would happen at a time when Western governments are stockpiling long lead-time aerospace parts and components (P&C), having learnt their lessons from the Ukraine war and pandemic-era disruptions. In fact, the need of the hour is for HAL to further reduce dependence on foreign sources and develop more domestic suppliers if it is to deliver the Tejas Mk2 at near the same peak annual rate it has programmed for the Tejas Mk1A, which is 16 units. Incidentally, the 83 Mk1A order received by HAL in 2021 has allowed it to increase the number of domestic private firms supplying Line Replacement Units (LRUs) and P&C to 410, up from the 344 achieved for the cumulative 40-unit Tejas Mk1 order. A drawdown in projected Tejas Mk2 orders would militate against the prospect of greater outsourcing by HAL, impacting the potential rate of production.
That would be a pity indeed, given that the IAF sorely needs ‘strong’ numbers of the Tejas Mk2, having adopted a ‘no war no peace’ (NWNP) doctrine and keen to achieve its sanctioned 42-squadron strength at the earliest. NWNP entails much more intensive air patrolling than before, alongside the need to implement quick upgrades in terms of new weapons, etc., to manage escalation.
In that sense, the Tejas Mk2, being an indigenous, single-engine 4.5-Gen fighter -- with lower projected operational costs than heavier twin-engined fighters in the IAF inventory -- and a platform that can be modified much faster than imported types (since design control is with India) is rather well-suited to NWNP. By inducting the Tejas Mk2, the IAF would join other major air forces that are either continuing to keep in service or inducting new-build fourth-generation single-engine fighters at a time of heightened geopolitical tensions. For instance, the USAF intends to keep F-16 variants in service till 2070, with the last F-16 currently on order not likely to be delivered before 2026.
Given its features, that are a step beyond the Mk1 baseline -- such as active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, unified electronic warfare suite, missile approach warning system, infrared search and track system, large area display, sensor fusion and networking, all of which will be sourced domestically -- the versatile Tejas Mk2 has good export potential. Some 16 countries have already shown interest in the Mk2, according to HAL and DRDO. Tapping the export demand would, of course, require the ability to build a sizeable number of aircraft annually at an economical rate, something that further strengthens the case for a much larger initial order than is being projected.
The Tejas Mk2’s upgraded features also make it a technological and industrial bridge to India’s fifth-generation advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA) effort, since the new sub-systems delineated above are a part of the latter’s repertoire, albeit with upgraded performance. While some LRUs developed for the Mk2, such as a new digital flight control computer, are making their way back into the Mk1A itself, the former will actually have much more in common with the AMCA as far as the insides are concerned. From software to indigenous actuators, to larger brakes and a new accessory gearbox, the Tejas Mk2 and AMCA will have almost 70% commonality. As such, the Tejas Mk2 will be a ‘proving cum certification’ ground for much of what will go into the AMCA. By extension, a deep and stable Tejas Mk2 supply-chain will therefore be critical to making a success of the AMCA’s build programme as well.
While India’s aeronautical R&D base is being modernised via the Tejas Mk2 through the use of 3D product model-definition techniques, its industrial methodology is also being upgraded by moving towards a modular approach in construction. As such, besides de-risking the IAF’s force posture build-up, the Tejas Mk2 will de-risk India’s next-generation combat aircraft programmes as well. The case for ordering at least 12 squadrons, if not more, of the Tejas Mk2 upfront has never been stronger.
(The writer is Chief Editor, Delhi Defence Review.)

 

[AnantS]

hmm... from 2022 to 2023 to 2024. That is when experience from developing lca mk1 was supposed to have helped in speed development of mk2 and amca

 

[MirageBlue]

Could it be that certain components are not ready? or they still need more time for them?

From what has been reported, this could be related to the air intake for which wind tunnel tests were to be conducted at ONERA. The rest of the design has been completed and passed CDR.

 

[MonaLazy]

From what has been reported, this could be related to the air intake for which wind tunnel tests were to be conducted at ONERA. The rest of the design has been completed and passed CDR.

But it does mean that Mk2 is still in the design phase and still one step away from fabrication. Even if they get certified in June and the 414 engine deal also fructifies around that time, then CCS releases funds & then it should take as much time as it does for Mk1 fabrication from scratch ie from placing orders for long lead items?

 

[MirageBlue]

But it does mean that Mk2 is still in the design phase and still one step away from fabrication. Even if they get certified in June and the 414 engine deal also fructifies around that time, then CCS releases funds & then it should take as much time as it does for Mk1 fabrication from scratch ie from placing orders for long lead items?

The rest of the airframe that has been cleared as well as wings, internals, avionics, electrical looms, hydraulics, canards, etc. can all start to be fabricated and assembled on the first prototype, if money isn't held up.

So no, it shouldn't take that much time. But we don't know the exact details of what the funding status is really at the program level. If there are no funds released, then signing contracts with the various suppliers for outsourced parts will be difficult.

 

[jai jaganath]

The rest of the airframe that has been cleared as well as wings, internals, avionics, electrical looms, hydraulics, canards, etc. can all start to be fabricated and assembled on the first prototype, if money isn't held up.

So no, it shouldn't take that much time. But we don't know the exact details of what the funding status is really at the program level. If there are no funds released, then signing contracts with the various suppliers for outsourced parts will be difficult.

But many sources say in osints that many tenders are out many tenders have been completed by giving order for those items related to mk2
What is truth doesn't seem to be clear funds released or not is biggest question

 

[MonaLazy]

So no, it shouldn't take that much time

https://hal-india.co.in/Common/Uploads/audio/ELA0520230517147046.mp3

At around 38:00 mark Mr Jayadeva says shortly they are going to launch prototype production at HAL. They will be manufacturing F414 at HAL too. Then Mr Ananthakrishnan chimes in saying that their strategy with all their suppliers/OEMs is they will have to have the ToT and manufacturing in India- else no business.

But there is no telling how long is shortly in sarkari speak. Besides, establishing this OEM & their own supplier ecosystem will take time- kind of like how Suzuki/Apple have all their ancilliaries co-located. So while minor contracts may be getting funded from internal funds, until the entire 6500 crs is released it won't pick up pace. I think that is the rational behind the chatter for 50 additional Mk1As. At 16/y and opening the Nashik line when it goes up to 24/y maybe they can deliver all Mk1As 1 year ahead of schedule? So by 2028. Then it will take them about 2 years to deliver the additional 50- ie by 2030. Then 2031 onwards we can see Mk2 rolling off production if they are strictly sequential!

 

[johnj]

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) Q4 FY23 Earnings Concall Transcript | AlphaStreet

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (NSE: HAL) Q4 FY23 earnings concall dated May. 17, 2023

alphastreet.com

The next question is from the line of Umesh Raut from PhillipCapital. Please go-ahead.

Umesh Raut — PhillipCapital — Analyst

Thank you so much for giving me an opportunity. Sir, my first question pertains to one of the major prospect that we have in the form of LCA Mk2 where as per the some of the media sources, now we are facing the challenge of signing TOT contract for supply of engine GE’s F414. So, I want to know what is exactly the status for development of LCA Mk2 and would that — would this TOT delay will hamper development timelines for LCA Mk2.

Jayadeva, E.P. — Director Operation

The LCA Mk2 design is almost — design of all the parts is almost completed. And shortly, we want to launch the [Indecipherable] production at AHL. Regarding the engine production also, we have given our, in fact, we are the production agency for GE 414 earlier also. Our ending division in Bangalore has been identified as a production agency. Recently given our willingness to be part of this also — reinforced our willingness to ADA also. ADA is speaking up with GE and the U.S. government to see that the TOT is given to the full extent. After that, we are expecting the contract to be concluded once the ADA [Indecipherable] sanction in full form.

Sanction in full form.

Umesh Raut — PhillipCapital — Analyst

But sir, do you see any major challenge in signing TOT with GE?

Jayadeva, E.P. — Director Operation

No, we are not finding any problem with the TOT with the GE. We’ll be manifesting the engine at scale.

C. B. Ananthakrishnan — Director of Finance and Chief Executive Officer

In fact, just to add to that, today the sort of our strategy with all our supplies including the engine manufacturers is quite clear. if at all they have to do business in India, they will have to have the TOT and the manufacturing facility established within the country. So we are working with all our OEMs towards that and we are confident that that will happen. And because they also have understood that once if they have to do business with India and with HAL, they will have to have the facilities established in the country. So we will be able to negotiate to our requirement of having a full TOT getting done within India.

Quoting those that must not be quoted-

HAL’s Engine Division Likely to Bag the Contract for F414 Engines – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

The Engine Division of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in Bangalore is in the lead to secure a contract for the local manufacturing, under license, of the General Electric F414 engine for the Tejas MkII program. This significant development comes as General Electric awaits final clearance from the Biden administration regarding the Transfer of Technology (ToT) for the engine, which includes clearance for the Core section of the engine to be transferred to India.

General Electric anticipates substantial orders for approximately 300 engine units solely from India for its Tejas MkII, TEDBF, and AMCA MkI fighter jet programs. Once the necessary clearances are obtained, the local manufacturing of the F414 engine by HAL’s Engine Division would not only strengthen the indigenous production capabilities but also contribute to India’s self-reliance in the defence sector.


The collaboration between HAL and General Electric holds great potential for enhancing the Tejas MkII program and other future fighter jet projects. The production of F414 engines locally would not only provide technical expertise but also create job opportunities and boost the overall aerospace industry in India.

F414: ToT Crucial for Lower Operating Cost for Tejas Mk2 fleet – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

The Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) insisted on interest in establishing local assembly facilities for engines and manufacturing key parts within the country. This move aims to stabilize the production systems and ensure a steady supply of frequently replaced components, ultimately reducing operating costs while enhancing the combat readiness of the Indian Air Force (IAF).

Officials familiar with the matter told idrw that, the local manufacturing facilities and infrastructure will play a vital role in bolstering the Tejas mk2 fleet once it enters production. The initiative is seen as a significant step towards achieving self-reliance in the defence sector and reducing dependence on foreign suppliers.

GE Aviation, a leading global aircraft engine manufacturer, has expressed its intent to establish local manufacturing capabilities for F414 engines in India. The company has submitted its proposal and is now awaiting final approval from the Biden administration, which is expected to coincide with Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s upcoming state visit to the United States.

The decision to focus on local manufacturing aligns with the broader vision of the Indian government’s Make in India campaign, which aims to promote indigenous production and boost the domestic defence industry. By encouraging local assembly and manufacturing, the MoD seeks to create a self-sustaining ecosystem that can support the production needs of the IAF and other branches of the armed forces.

The move is expected to have a positive impact on the Tejas mk2 program, which is the upgraded version of India’s indigenous Tejas fighter aircraft. The enhanced local manufacturing capabilities will provide a strong foundation for the Tejas mk2 fleet, ensuring a reliable supply chain, efficient maintenance processes, and cost-effective operations.

Wait a sec bro design is almost complete what does that mean wasn't that completed during cdr if it's not then have they prototype building or not
Just a query

Only people closely involved with the program or those that are monitoring it can answer that. We can only twiddle our thumbs and wait for the 'roll-out' milestone.

Again relying on the unreliables-

Tejas MkII to get Air Intakes Certified at French Facility – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

Tejas MkII to get Air Intakes Certified at French Facility

7 April 2023

Tejas Mark II will be going through air intake test certification in France in May-June this year at the revered S1MA facility that is operated by France’s aerospace research agency Onera.

Computational fluid dynamics (CFD) are often used to test air intake design to collect data on AOA (angle of attack) and airflow at different speeds but such wind tunnel facilities are used to verify those data before aircraft production commences. S1MA facility is equipped with a Continuous-flow wind tunnel, for Atmospheric, Mach 0.05 to Mach 1 tests.


idrw.org has learned that each test campaign usually lasts some two to three weeks and per day cost ranges from Rs 8 lakhs per day for using such a facility. India at present doesn’t have such a facility since the Wind tunnel facility are expensive to build and sharing of technology is not allowed due to sovereignty issues of their respected Government.


Then there are multiple sources on the bird app reporting-

Air Intake Test Certification in #France before #Tejas Mk2 prototype is rolled out next year

#DRDO hopes to bag the certification in May-June this year as the air intakes of Mark II is similar to Mark I.

Lack of testing & certification facilities in India leads to delays in design & development of weapons.

Just In

DRDO is fully Confident to Roll out Tejas MK-2 by next year Completion of Air Intake test Certification in France by June this Year.

Since the most of design of Tejas MK-1 & MK-2 is similar with little bit changes
It's testing & devlopment will be easy.

CCS Headed by PM Modi has asked DRDO to stick to the Project timeline & avoid delays in the name of Tech demonstrator & first devlopment step. PM Modi want DRDO & IAF to ramp up the Squadron strength seeing China Growing Airforce fleet. Direct PMO intervention & look up is need

Spoiler: sauce

Tejas Mk2 Rollout in FY25-26 : HAL Chief – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

Tejas Mk2 Rollout in FY25-26 : HAL Chief

26 January 2023

C B Ananthakrishnan, CMD of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd In a report on 100knots.com, said that Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) gave sanctions for the development of the LCA-Mk2 last September and, HAL will be able to deliver the prototype in 2025-26 and it will have its first flight in 2026-27.

Ananthakrishnan claimed that 2500 crores already have been spent on the initial design work of the LCA-Mk2 and the program will get more than 6500 crores in the next few months to develop four prototypes that are earmarked to be used for developmental flight trials of the LCA-Mk2.


While it is not clear if the Rollout of the Prototype that was to happen later this year has been postponed and the first flight that was to happen in late 2024 or early 2025 will only happen in 2027.

Retired IAF captain Harsh Vardhan Thakur who is an experimental test pilot with HAL, commented on this issue and said that ” Contract is placed on manufacturer only after CCS approval. Every aircraft takes >36 months to manufacture. Delays from the manufacturer are charged with LD, which would show up in the annual report. Don’t believe anything else. “

CCS clearance that came in September 2022 and 36 months could mean that the LCA-Mk2 rollout is only possible in September 2025 and the first flight that usually takes place one year from the rollout might happen to be at the end of 2026



Since the 6500 crores for four Mk2 prototypes is held up until the jet engine deal is signed it is tough to predict what's going on.

But it does mean that Mk2 is still in the design phase and still one step away from fabrication. Even if they get certified in June and the 414 engine deal also fructifies around that time, then CCS releases funds & then it should take as much time as it does for Mk1 fabrication from scratch ie from placing orders for long lead items?

https://hal-india.co.in/Common/Uploads/audio/ELA0520230517147046.mp3

At around 38:00 mark Mr Jayadeva says shortly they are going to launch prototype production at HAL. They will be manufacturing F414 at HAL too. Then Mr Ananthakrishnan chimes in saying that their strategy with all their suppliers/OEMs is they will have to have the ToT and manufacturing in India- else no business.

But there is no telling how long is shortly in sarkari speak. Besides, establishing this OEM & their own supplier ecosystem will take time- kind of like how Suzuki/Apple have all their ancilliaries co-located. So while minor contracts may be getting funded from internal funds, until the entire 6500 crs is released it won't pick up pace. I think that is the rational behind the chatter for 50 additional Mk1As. At 16/y and opening the Nashik line when it goes up to 24/y maybe they can deliver all Mk1As 1 year ahead of schedule? So by 2028. Then it will take them about 2 years to deliver the additional 50- ie by 2030. Then 2031 onwards we can see Mk2 rolling off production if they are strictly sequential!

First of all - don't give a lots of importance to comments made by Politians
I already said before, whatever happing regarding F414 tot now a days is a part of 2009/2013 deal
LCA mk2, there will be small delay in mk2 becz both HAL & ADA are a little busy with ml1a & testing/validation of some parts of mk2, before going into prototype.

 

[MonaLazy]

Posting this here to back up what I said earlier. F-414 EDE with CMC core will take this engine to 130+kN with acceptable durability. It will exceed AMCA supercruise requirements- now only if the Americans could transfer IP + know-why then this is a no-brainer.

theigmp.org/general-electric-offers-upgraded-core-on-f-414-engine/

General Electric Offers Upgraded Core On F-414 Engine To Generate 130kn Thrust For Indian AMCA Stealth Jet

Representative Image
US firm General Electric has presented a proposal to India offering to develop a new engine using its 116 kilonewtons F-414 enhanced engine as a baseline to power India’s AMCA Mark 2 program that will meet the crucial objectives of achieving supercruise capabilities and reduced thermal signature.
General Electric has extended an offer to India to utilize their Ceramic Matrix composite engine core parts which require 20% less cooling air and can also withstand higher temperatures thus allowing the core to generate thrust exceeding 130 kilonewtons with the upgraded F-414 core.
The baseline 98 kilonewton thrust F-414 NS6 engine has already been selected to power India’s Tejas Mark 2, TEDBF, and AMCA Mark 1, and India now has the option to select a new engine with upgraded Ceramic Matrix composite enhanced core that has the potential to surpass 130 kilonewtons of thrust.
Trending
But it is also important to note that the Indian Air Force has earlier rejected the same offer from General Electric to produce an upgraded 110kn+ thrust F-414 engine variant for AMCA Mark 2, now it is to be seen that whether the IAF accepts this new offer or not. General Electric offers upgraded core on F-414 engine to generate 130kn thrust for Indian AMCA stealth jet

 

[Gyyan]

Posting this here to back up what I said earlier. F-414 EDE with CMC core will take this engine to 130+kN with acceptable durability. It will exceed AMCA supercruise requirements- now only if the Americans could transfer IP + know-why then this is a no-brainer.

theigmp.org/general-electric-offers-upgraded-core-on-f-414-engine/

General Electric Offers Upgraded Core On F-414 Engine To Generate 130kn Thrust For Indian AMCA Stealth Jet
View attachment 207347Representative Image
US firm General Electric has presented a proposal to India offering to develop a new engine using its 116 kilonewtons F-414 enhanced engine as a baseline to power India’s AMCA Mark 2 program that will meet the crucial objectives of achieving supercruise capabilities and reduced thermal signature.
General Electric has extended an offer to India to utilize their Ceramic Matrix composite engine core parts which require 20% less cooling air and can also withstand higher temperatures thus allowing the core to generate thrust exceeding 130 kilonewtons with the upgraded F-414 core.
The baseline 98 kilonewton thrust F-414 NS6 engine has already been selected to power India’s Tejas Mark 2, TEDBF, and AMCA Mark 1, and India now has the option to select a new engine with upgraded Ceramic Matrix composite enhanced core that has the potential to surpass 130 kilonewtons of thrust.
Trending
But it is also important to note that the Indian Air Force has earlier rejected the same offer from General Electric to produce an upgraded 110kn+ thrust F-414 engine variant for AMCA Mark 2, now it is to be seen that whether the IAF accepts this new offer or not. General Electric offers upgraded core on F-414 engine to generate 130kn thrust for Indian AMCA stealth jet

IIRC idrw posted once that was a new offer from RR about an engine with 120 KN thrust and thrust could be enhanced by 10% if needed.

 

[MonaLazy]

IIRC idrw posted once that was a new offer from RR about an engine with 120 KN thrust and thrust could be enhanced by 10% if needed.

Of course, every vendor will push their wares, it is for MoD to pick the best offer for India that includes IP and no export restrictions. Still, the fact is, Americans are without doubt leagues ahead in turbofan development compared to anybody else.

 

[Azaad]

Posting this here to back up what I said earlier. F-414 EDE with CMC core will take this engine to 130+kN with acceptable durability. It will exceed AMCA supercruise requirements- now only if the Americans could transfer IP + know-why then this is a no-brainer.

theigmp.org/general-electric-offers-upgraded-core-on-f-414-engine/

General Electric Offers Upgraded Core On F-414 Engine To Generate 130kn Thrust For Indian AMCA Stealth Jet
View attachment 207347Representative Image
US firm General Electric has presented a proposal to India offering to develop a new engine using its 116 kilonewtons F-414 enhanced engine as a baseline to power India’s AMCA Mark 2 program that will meet the crucial objectives of achieving supercruise capabilities and reduced thermal signature.
General Electric has extended an offer to India to utilize their Ceramic Matrix composite engine core parts which require 20% less cooling air and can also withstand higher temperatures thus allowing the core to generate thrust exceeding 130 kilonewtons with the upgraded F-414 core.
The baseline 98 kilonewton thrust F-414 NS6 engine has already been selected to power India’s Tejas Mark 2, TEDBF, and AMCA Mark 1, and India now has the option to select a new engine with upgraded Ceramic Matrix composite enhanced core that has the potential to surpass 130 kilonewtons of thrust.
Trending
But it is also important to note that the Indian Air Force has earlier rejected the same offer from General Electric to produce an upgraded 110kn+ thrust F-414 engine variant for AMCA Mark 2, now it is to be seen that whether the IAF accepts this new offer or not. General Electric offers upgraded core on F-414 engine to generate 130kn thrust for Indian AMCA stealth jet

I can't think of anything else that would serve as clear evidence the US wants to scuttle our plan to indigenously develop ( in a JV with a foreign OEM) our very own TF . We've had variations of this offer from SAFRAN & RR earlier .

The way I see it , ACE is the future . The current generation of TFs will go out with the last of the 4th Gen / 4.5 Gen FAs which would extend upto 2050 , give or take , in most if not all western air forces. India's facing a double whammy in that we've yet to come up with a regular cycle TF & it's only post that we can begin our journey to develop our very own indigenous ACE TF which as of now is in uncharted waters . Ideally neither the US nor the Europeans should be withholding technology for they've bigger fish to fry , yet here we are .

Ideally we also ought to be treating the entire F-414 / F-414 EPE program as a backup for if all our efforts to get a JV with RR or SAFRAN fail , the GE offer bails us out since it'd be no more than a mfg JV. This also means we'd have to revive the Kaveri program & come up with a working model preferably to power the Mk-1a in the MLU . Assuming both these programs ( JV with RR / SAFRAN & Kaveri derivative ) deliver results between 2030-35 , we need to launch our 6th Gen FA program by 2030 & our own ACE program by 2035 which can either be a derivative of the Kaveri or the JV or preferably a hybrid bringing the best of both worlds . Just my 2 cents.

 

[NutCracker]

I can't think of anything else that would serve as clear evidence the US wants to scuttle our plan to indigenously develop ( in a JV with a foreign OEM) our very own TF . We've had variations of this offer from SAFRAN & RR earlier .

The way I see it , ACE is the future . The current generation of TFs will go out with the last of the 4th Gen / 4.5 Gen FAs which would extend upto 2050 , give or take , in most if not all western air forces. India's facing a double whammy in that we've yet to come up with a regular cycle TF & it's only post that we can begin our journey to develop our very own indigenous ACE TF which as of now is in uncharted waters . Ideally neither the US nor the Europeans should be withholding technology for they've bigger fish to fry , yet here we are .

Ideally we also ought to be treating the entire F-414 / F-414 EPE program as a backup for if all our efforts to get a JV with RR or SAFRAN fail , the GE offer bails us out since it'd be no more than a mfg JV. This also means we'd have to revive the Kaveri program & come up with a working model preferably to power the Mk-1a in the MLU . Assuming both these programs ( JV with RR / SAFRAN & Kaveri derivative ) deliver results between 2030-35 , we need to launch our 6th Gen FA program by 2030 & our own ACE program by 2035 which can either be a derivative of the Kaveri or the JV or preferably a hybrid bringing the best of both worlds . Just my 2 cents.

If we can't trust US, we Can't trust UK too, It has to be SAFRAN.
Also French might be in search of chance to snub UK and US for AUKUS submarine controversy.

 

[Azaad]

If we can't trust US, we Can't trust UK too, It has to be SAFRAN.
Also French might be in search of chance to snub UK and US for AUKUS submarine controversy.

Can't trust anybody though the French are more trust worthy than the Anglos . However this has to be weighed with what we're getting but also what we're prepared to spend given the usual penny wise pound foolish attitude of our MoD / GoI . In any case SAFRAN would have to build the whole TF from scratch which means more time taken & we're running out of time now .

 

[MonaLazy]

I can't think of anything else that would serve as clear evidence the US wants to scuttle our plan to indigenously develop ( in a JV with a foreign OEM) our very own TF . We've had variations of this offer from SAFRAN & RR earlier .

The way I see it , ACE is the future . The current generation of TFs will go out with the last of the 4th Gen / 4.5 Gen FAs which would extend upto 2050 , give or take , in most if not all western air forces. India's facing a double whammy in that we've yet to come up with a regular cycle TF & it's only post that we can begin our journey to develop our very own indigenous ACE TF which as of now is in uncharted waters . Ideally neither the US nor the Europeans should be withholding technology for they've bigger fish to fry , yet here we are .

Ideally we also ought to be treating the entire F-414 / F-414 EPE program as a backup for if all our efforts to get a JV with RR or SAFRAN fail , the GE offer bails us out since it'd be no more than a mfg JV. This also means we'd have to revive the Kaveri program & come up with a working model preferably to power the Mk-1a in the MLU . Assuming both these programs ( JV with RR / SAFRAN & Kaveri derivative ) deliver results between 2030-35 , we need to launch our 6th Gen FA program by 2030 & our own ACE program by 2035 which can either be a derivative of the Kaveri or the JV or preferably a hybrid bringing the best of both worlds . Just my 2 cents.

Some good thoughts there. However, I wouldn't go so far as to call the Americans scuttlers. It is us that has reached out to them for help.

Personal opinion but RR's offer seems most sketchy to me. They have, in fact, two offers- one based on EJ2x0 and the other on the new engine they are developing for Tempest (how much of this is vapourware?). On EJ200 they only have HPT expertise to offer.

They did work on adaptive cycle engines with GE (which eventually became the cent per cent American XA100) but only briefly and that was also in the preliminary stages of the program before being booted out.

Safran did offer know-how and know-why but at an inordinately steep price which led to not being able to close the deal quickly and the Americans re-entered the arena after DTTI exit.

So the Americans then.

The Air Force is eyeing groundbreaking new engines for the F-35 - Sandboxx

On Friday, the Air Force made the first meaningful step toward sourcing advanced new adaptive cycle engines for its primary stealth fighter, the F-35. These new engines, while still a ways from service, would offer a significant leap in capability for the aircraft practically across the board...

www.sandboxx.us

From the ADVENT program these are the four key technologies they created:

1. adaptive engine
2. 3rd stream (thermal management system to put more & more mission systems)
3. advanced materials and manufacturing technologies including CMCs ('00s of degrees of increased temperature capability, lighter weight & durability)
4. additive manufacturing (to print any part you need without being constrained by limits of traditional manufacturing & design)

Adaptive engine can switch between high thrust and high mileage modes allowing the fighter plane to arrive at the engagement zone with higher fuel in the tank, besides increasing its range.

Now before we go bonkers wishing for every acronym the Americans throw around let's see why they created an adaptive engine:

that boost in range would be especially valuable to the Navy. The F-35C has a total range of approximately 1,200 nautical miles, giving it a 600 mile combat radius in the best of times. That’s not far enough to launch sorties at China without putting America’s carriers in range of China’s hypersonic anti-ship weapons. A 25% boost in range, say to 750 miles, isn’t enough to eliminate this capability gap, but it’s a step in the right direction.

While every increase in range is welcome do we really need an increase in range when China is right next door to us? We don't have to fly in from an ACC parked 750 nm away in the Pacific. So from the 4 points listed above our priority in descending order should be 4 (to fabricate parts exactly as per the CFD analysis), 3 (higher TeT), then 1 & 2 (these last two go together). If we can't have an adaptive cycle then we can increase the range with A2A refuelling as a mitigation strategy however for 4 & 3 there is no mitigation as more thrust will allow us more payload. Durable parts will increase the availability of the aircraft for IAF- again a cost saver.

We have GE's 404 & 414 already selected to power Mk1/A/2/AMCA I/TEDBF. Other than this the only other fighter aircraft engines in IAF inventory will be AL31FP and M88-2. Discounting Mig-21/29/Jaguar/Mirage 2K which will be out of service in this decade- then if we have a common family of engines powering a bulk of our fighters it will ease maintenance & logistics, boost availability and may even allow IAF more flexibility in deploying platforms at different airfields. The American case is strong.

If we can't trust US, we Can't trust UK too, It has to be SAFRAN.
Also French might be in search of chance to snub UK and US for AUKUS submarine controversy.

Wasn't a true to scale AMCA (& Tejas 1 & 2 before it) model tested at Calspan- in USA. The Americans already have a lot of data on our crown jewels. We can't be both mistrusting them and sending our top secret projects to them for validation.

 

[Azaad]

So the Americans then.

The Air Force is eyeing groundbreaking new engines for the F-35 - Sandboxx

On Friday, the Air Force made the first meaningful step toward sourcing advanced new adaptive cycle engines for its primary stealth fighter, the F-35. These new engines, while still a ways from service, would offer a significant leap in capability for the aircraft practically across the board...

www.sandboxx.us

From the ADVENT program these are the four key technologies they created:

1. adaptive engine
2. 3rd stream (thermal management system to put more & more mission systems)
3. advanced materials and manufacturing technologies including CMCs ('00s of degrees of increased temperature capability, lighter weight & durability)
4. additive manufacturing (to print any part you need without being constrained by limits of traditional manufacturing & design)

Adaptive engine can switch between high thrust and high mileage modes allowing the fighter plane to arrive at the engagement zone with higher fuel in the tank, besides increasing its range.

Now before we go bonkers wishing for every acronym the Americans throw around let's see why they created an adaptive engine:

While every increase in range is welcome do we really need an increase in range when China is right next door to us? We don't have to fly in from an ACC parked 750 nm away in the Pacific. So from the 4 points listed above our priority in descending order should be 4 (to fabricate parts exactly as per the CFD analysis), 3 (higher TeT), then 1 & 2 (these last two go together).

Excellent summation but one of the other prominent feature of these ACE TFs you missed was its ability to power on board DEW systems which is one of the defining features of all the 6th Gen FA programs including NGAD but it's also expected to be on board the F-35 after its received its engine upgrade .

The AMCA Mk-2 is expected to come with a DEW too as per the ADA which can only happen if we receive the tech for such an ACE TF or develop one indigenously. Your guess is as good as mine. Besides most of the high value targets in China are on its eastern & southern coastal areas which are a good 2-3000 kms away from our Eastern / NE AFBs. Add loiter time to it too & tell me why shouldn't we be going in for ACE TFs.

So if we can't get one & end up developing one , the first phase of the 6th Gen FA program will end up like the AMCA Mk-1 program i.e it'd be powered by a foreign TF where expectedly we'd have plenty of choices.

 

[skunk works]

India, U.S. discuss possibilities of co-producing jet engines, long-range artillery and infantry vehicles

“So the jet engine deal will take India’s capability in the aircraft industry to a new level.”

www.thehindu.com

Article about Mera Engine TOT Ayega, Mera Engine TOT Zaroor Ayega!
It also mentions infantry vehicles so hope they don't scuttle DRDO whAp/Kestrel for some star spangled tin-can with human rights clauses

You VILL DRIVE ZE STRYKER AND YOU VILL LIKE IT!

 

[Gyyan]