ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[standard snowball]

IAF should just go ahead and buy whatever it needs because the country's security is more important than making indigenous fighter jets. In addition, we are putting the lives of our young pilots at risk whenever they are forced to fly Jaguars, Mig 21 and it's going to only be worse as these planes age with every passing year.
ADA/HAL has a budget independent of the military so they do their R&D & be ready to deliver as per their timeline. IAF has ordered 83 Tejas Mk1A and nothing else so far. If the other designs are ready for serial production in the future more fighter jets may be ordered based on IAF requirements.

yeah so that when push comes to shove we run to the OEMs and beg them to not stop the supply of spares, why do you think we are silent on the russian invasion of ukraine(because our entire military depends upon them, if for some reason they stop giving us spares we would be royally screwed)

 

[Narasimh]

IAF should just go ahead and buy whatever it needs because the country's security is more important than making indigenous fighter jets. In addition, we are putting the lives of our young pilots at risk whenever they are forced to fly Jaguars, Mig 21 and it's going to only be worse as these planes age with every passing year.
ADA/HAL has a budget independent of the military so they do their R&D & be ready to deliver as per their timeline. IAF has ordered 83 Tejas Mk1A and nothing else so far. If the other designs are ready for serial production in the future more fighter jets may be ordered based on IAF requirements.

Drdo/Ada is yet to deliver a plane which can solve air force's problem.. Tejas mk2 is still on paper, amca on paper, and Tejas itself has many technologies sourced from foreign OEMs. This can be compelling reason to go for foreign fighters but will be a hasteful decision given limited budget.. IAF must have obtained a deadline for Tejas mk2 and AMCA from discussion with drdo and MoD and beyond that deadline if product is not delivered or up to the standards then it shall go for procurements i think. Most likely this is how the discussions would have gone I assume. I think govt is also ok with this... all rests on drdo/ada's shoulders

 

[kamaal]

Drdo/Ada is yet to deliver a plane which can solve air force's problem.. Tejas mk2 is still on paper, amca on paper, and Tejas itself has many technologies sourced from foreign OEMs. This can be compelling reason to go for foreign fighters but will be a hasteful decision given limited budget.. IAF must have obtained a deadline for Tejas mk2 and AMCA from discussion with drdo and MoD and beyond that deadline if product is not delivered or up to the standards then it shall go for procurements i think. Most likely this is how the discussions would have gone I assume. I think govt is also ok with this... all rests on drdo/ada's shoulders

Mk2 is delayed but not a paper plane. Lot has been achieved, but ada needs to up it's gme and at least display a full scale during Aero India 2023.

People should approach and question them at the stall and make them do some PR about mk2.

 

[SilentlAssassin265]

Mk2 is delayed but not a paper plane. Lot has been achieved, but ada needs to up it's gme and at least display a full scale during Aero India 2023.

People should approach and question them at the stall and make them do some PR about mk2.

In case of mk1 also there were dozens of change with every prototype iaf was asking designs change and almost sabotaged the project

 

[silverghost]

yeah so that when push comes to shove we run to the OEMs and beg them to not stop the supply of spares, why do you think we are silent on the Russian invasion of Ukraine(because our entire military depends upon them, if for some reason they stop giving us spares we would be royally screwed)

We aren't silent because our military depends on them we are silent because it is in our interest to be silent. If we have to buy crude in the open market the petrol prices in India would be comparable to the ones in Europe. This would have an effect on everything from food, to essential goods, etc. Inflation would go through the roof as is happening in European countries. Most Russian weapons are manufactured here in India under a collaboration. We don't do mere assembly but have sourced parts from vendors here in India. BTW, which specific equipment do you think will have major issues should Russia refuse to supply parts? (SU 30 MKI, T 90S (maybe), S400) what else?

 

[silverghost]

Drdo/Ada is yet to deliver a plane which can solve air force's problem.. Tejas mk2 is still on paper, amca on paper, and Tejas itself has many technologies sourced from foreign OEMs. This can be compelling reason to go for foreign fighters but will be a hasteful decision given limited budget.. IAF must have obtained a deadline for Tejas mk2 and AMCA from discussion with drdo and MoD and beyond that deadline if product is not delivered or up to the standards then it shall go for procurements i think. Most likely this is how the discussions would have gone I assume. I think govt is also ok with this... all rests on drdo/ada's shoulders

Sourcing technologies from OEMs outside India is not a problem. These technologies can be indigenized over time assuming that the fighter jet has a modular design. Now if you have been hearing the Chief of Air Staff talking, he doesn't miss an opportunity to stress on the acquisition of 114 fighter jets under MRFA. This tells me that whatever the arrangement not all is well between IAF, ADA and HAL, hence the concern.

 

[silverghost]

In case of mk1 also there were dozens of change with every prototype iaf was asking designs change and almost sabotaged the project

IAF is the customer therefore it will demand stuff that needs to be there. If you have read the AGs report, it is amply clear that a lot of military equipment including Tejas was supplied under conditional acceptance. The idea being, the supplier would make improvements & percolate those improvements to earlier versions as well. How can you call it sabotage? IAF as a customer reserves the right within reason to reject the fighter jet outright if it is not up to its specifications. Actually, it did reject initial versions of Mk1 but then came around when HAL promised to make changes.

 

[silverghost]

yeah so that when push comes to shove we run to the OEMs and beg them to not stop the supply of spares, why do you think we are silent on the russian invasion of ukraine(because our entire military depends upon them, if for some reason they stop giving us spares we would be royally screwed)

BTW, you are never going to be able to make a 100% indigenous fighter jet. You will have to source parts so dependency on OEMs is given. The only thing that you can plan is to have multiple sources so if one is not there for some reason you can go to the next.

 

[standard snowball]

We aren't silent because our military depends on them we are silent because it is in our interest to be silent. If we have to buy crude in the open market the petrol prices in India would be comparable to the ones in Europe. This would have an effect on everything from food, to essential goods, etc. Inflation would go through the roof as is happening in European countries. Most Russian weapons are manufactured here in India under a collaboration. We don't do mere assembly but have sourced parts from vendors here in India. BTW, which specific equipment do you think will have major issues should Russia refuse to supply parts? (SU 30 MKI, T 90S (maybe), S400) what else?

https://srijandefence.gov.in/ just visit this website and search any defence item you want and you will realise the true scale of defence imports we do. for example we spent nearly 60 lakh rupees over T90 switches in just 2 years. and thus i stand by my comment that for the most part we do mere assembly in india. (russians ne ToT ke naam par khoob chuna lagaya hai)

russia ukraine war was just a convinent example for showing how imports hamper our independent foreign policy.
if it were not for our military dependence on russia do you really think india would have been this neutral( or one might say borderline pro russian).
we would has just abstained and russia would have been head over heels simply because of that but due to our military dependence on them russia expects us to stay silent (one can argue that without a military dependence on them we would have gotten even better discounts)

BTW, you are never going to be able to make a 100% indigenous fighter jet. You will have to source parts so dependency on OEMs is given. The only thing that you can plan is to have multiple sources so if one is not there for some reason you can go to the next.

DEPENDENCE on OEM is given but CRITICAL DEPENDENCE is not and we are critically dependent on foreign countries like russia and USA

 

[silverghost]

https://srijandefence.gov.in/ just visit this website and search any defence item you want and you will realise the true scale of defence imports we do. for example we spent nearly 60 lakh rupees over T90 switches in just 2 years. and thus i stand by my comment that for the most part we do mere assembly in india. (russians ne ToT ke naam par khoob chuna lagaya hai)

russia ukraine war was just a convinent example for showing how imports hamper our independent foreign policy.
if it were not for our military dependence on russia do you really think india would have been this neutral( or one might say borderline pro russian).
we would has just abstained and russia would have been head over heels simply because of that but due to our military dependence on them russia expects us to stay silent (one can argue that without a military dependence on them we would have gotten even better discounts)

DEPENDENCE on OEM is given but CRITICAL DEPENDENCE is not and we are critically dependent on foreign countries like russia and USA

Yes, India would have been this neutral. When the rest of the world is reeling from an oil shortage & OPEC is cutting production, to get very large quantities of crude oil at a discounted rate is nothing short of brilliant. Also, your theory that we would have gotten better discounts if we didn't have a dependency on Russia - Would you care to name an example of one country that doesn't have a dependency on Russian weapons & has gotten a better discount?
Why should India take sides in Russia - Ukraine war? Also, Indian businesses are taking this opportunity to move into Russia and gain access to the markets vacated by Western companies. Contrary to what people may think it is not about weapons all the time. It is about what is good for India.

 

[standard snowball]

Yes, India would have been this neutral. When the rest of the world is reeling from an oil shortage & OPEC is cutting production, to get very large quantities of crude oil at a discounted rate is nothing short of brilliant. Also, your theory that we would have gotten better discounts if we didn't have a dependency on Russia - Would you care to name an example of one country that doesn't have a dependency on Russian weapons & has gotten a better discount?
Why should India take sides in Russia - Ukraine war? Also, Indian businesses are taking this opportunity to move into Russia and gain access to the markets vacated by Western companies. Contrary to what people may think it is not about weapons all the time. It is about what is good for India.

you are diverting from the main topic we were discussing, the topic effect of foreign oems on our sovereignty and foreign affairs, anyways china isn't militarily dependent on russia yet it is getting near equal amount of discount,
russian market is many times smaller than the eu and our borderline support of russia will most probably hurt and delay indo-eu free trade agreement. (we will lose more money without this fta than we will earn from russia)
we aren't neutral in this conflict neutrality means not supporting both sides but by buying russian oil we are supporting russia. europeans are buying russian oil but they are off-setting that by dumping billions worth of arms in ukraine, what are we doing to offset our oil purchase
you know what's funny chinese red cross sent more aid to ukraine than indian government.
yes we have saved a lot of money by buying discounted russian oil (and we should praise indian government for that but we could have gotten the same discount by less effort if we weren't dependent on russia militarily) but lets not pretend like we are neutral, we are not.
contrary to what you think our biggest reason for supporting russia is our military dependence on them, we can change our oil suppliers in a week but we can't do the same with our weapons suppliers
and FYI i am not against indian neutrality in this war, what i am saying is that without military dependence on russia we could have been more neutral "neutral" because of better bargaining chips.
for example if we weren't dependent on russia militarily our foreign policy choices would have been more wider, like i dunno sending more humanitarian aid to ukraine

 

[Blademaster]

you are diverting from the main topic we were discussing, the topic effect of foreign oems on our sovereignty and foreign affairs, anyways china isn't militarily dependent on russia yet it is getting near equal amount of discount,
russian market is many times smaller than the eu and our borderline support of russia will most probably hurt and delay indo-eu free trade agreement. (we will lose more money without this fta than we will earn from russia)
we aren't neutral in this conflict neutrality means not supporting both sides but by buying russian oil we are supporting russia. europeans are buying russian oil but they are off-setting that by dumping billions worth of arms in ukraine, what are we doing to offset our oil purchase
you know what's funny chinese red cross sent more aid to ukraine than indian government.
yes we have saved a lot of money by buying discounted russian oil (and we should praise indian government for that but we could have gotten the same discount by less effort if we weren't dependent on russia militarily) but lets not pretend like we are neutral, we are not.
contrary to what you think our biggest reason for supporting russia is our military dependence on them, we can change our oil suppliers in a week but we can't do the same with our weapons suppliers
and FYI i am not against indian neutrality in this war, what i am saying is that without military dependence on russia we could have been more neutral "neutral" because of better bargaining chips.
for example if we weren't dependent on russia militarily our foreign policy choices would have been more wider, like i dunno sending more humanitarian aid to ukraine

sorry that just doesn’t cut it. We are not neutral. We silently want Russia to win at the expense of the western world because it will bring back a necessary balance that was missing post Cold War. US and NATO must be checked.

 

[silverghost]

you are diverting from the main topic we were discussing, the topic effect of foreign oems on our sovereignty and foreign affairs, anyways china isn't militarily dependent on russia yet it is getting near equal amount of discount,
russian market is many times smaller than the eu and our borderline support of russia will most probably hurt and delay indo-eu free trade agreement. (we will lose more money without this fta than we will earn from russia)
we aren't neutral in this conflict neutrality means not supporting both sides but by buying russian oil we are supporting russia. europeans are buying russian oil but they are off-setting that by dumping billions worth of arms in ukraine, what are we doing to offset our oil purchase
you know what's funny chinese red cross sent more aid to ukraine than indian government.
yes we have saved a lot of money by buying discounted russian oil (and we should praise indian government for that but we could have gotten the same discount by less effort if we weren't dependent on russia militarily) but lets not pretend like we are neutral, we are not.
contrary to what you think our biggest reason for supporting russia is our military dependence on them, we can change our oil suppliers in a week but we can't do the same with our weapons suppliers
and FYI i am not against indian neutrality in this war, what i am saying is that without military dependence on russia we could have been more neutral "neutral" because of better bargaining chips.
for example if we weren't dependent on russia militarily our foreign policy choices would have been more wider, like i dunno sending more humanitarian aid to ukraine

Where does China source its fighter engines from if not Russia? If you look at the statistics 74% of Chinese imports are from Russia. It has bought a battery of S400, SU 35, SU 30, Diesel Electric submarines, missiles, etc. Since a number of Chinese equipment is reverse-engineered from their Russian analogs there is a dependency at the sub-assemblies level. So don't say China doesn't have a dependency on Russia. Maybe not as much as India but it is still significant.

sorry that just doesn’t cut it. We are not neutral. We silently want Russia to win at the expense of the western world because it will bring back a necessary balance that was missing post Cold War. US and NATO must be checked.

That's your viewpoint & you are entitled to it. India's official position is that it wants a cessation of hostilities. Ukraine is backed by NATO, it just obtained 46 billion dollars in arms funding. So, unless both sides want peace this is going to continue forever. US & EU will continue to pour money until both sides are tired of fighting. What India wants or doesn't want doesn't even matter.

 

[Blademaster]

That's your viewpoint & you are entitled to it. India's official position is that it wants a cessation of hostilities. Ukraine is backed by NATO, it just obtained 46 billion dollars in arms funding. So, unless both sides want peace this is going to continue forever. US & EU will continue to pour money until both sides are tired of fighting. What India wants or doesn't want doesn't even matter.

That is the official position designed to avoid being drawn into the conflict and being forced to be pitted against one side with the other. Modi and his FM have done an admirable job keep India out of the entanglement.

It is totally fine if the western world ignores India. As for the conflict going on, India does not give a shit whether it ends or goes on. As far as India is concerned, this is a white man's fight and an European clusterfuck created by US and NATO. India does sympathize (unofficially) with Russia for being forced into this conflict.

India is too concerned with pressing matters closer to home to worry about what is going on in a place that is 6k miles away. But make no mistake about it, India does want Russia to win to restore balance.

 

[FactsPlease]

... delay indo-eu free trade agreement. (we will lose more money without this fta than we will earn from russia)
... our biggest reason for supporting russia is our military dependence on them, we can change our oil suppliers in a week ... .
for example if we weren't dependent on russia militarily our foreign policy choices would have been more wider, like i dunno sending more humanitarian aid to ukraine

Numbers (facts) please, gents, numbers.
And, enough off topic for Tejas Mk2 thread, aren't we?

 

[karn]

Does anyone have a confirmation on the placement of the cannon on the mk2 ?
Is it on the shoulder or is it pod mounted.

 

[NutCracker]

Does anyone have a confirmation on the placement of the cannon on the mk2 ?
Is it on the shoulder or is it pod mounted.

99% Same place .. Or pod.
MK2 doesn't have major design changes , it's just elongated version, probably more aerodynamic since nose cone is smaller than MK1.
also with canards it will be insanely difficult to fit on shoulders.

 

[thebakofbakchod]

Why do no journalists or government panel actually ask these big mouths on how their deadline keeps conveniently shifting backwards and the real reason for the delay?

Tejas Mark II to roll out next year; high-speed trials in 2023: HAL Chief Madhavan

India News:Tejas Mark II to roll out next year; high-speed trials in 2023: HAL Chief Madhavan

www.thehindu.com

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

Why do no journalists or government panel actually ask these big mouths on how their deadline keeps conveniently shifting backwards and the real reason for the delay?

Tejas Mark II to roll out next year; high-speed trials in 2023: HAL Chief Madhavan

India News:Tejas Mark II to roll out next year; high-speed trials in 2023: HAL Chief Madhavan

www.thehindu.com

The Tejas Mk2 CDR wasn't even approved until September 2021, so expecting it to roll-out in 2022 was pure hogwash

 

[thebakofbakchod]

The Tejas Mk2 CDR wasn't even approved until September 2021, so expecting it to roll-out in 2022 was pure hogwash

So then by which capacity and confidence were these big mouths boasting to the media about its roll out? It wasnt some low level employee saying that. It was the chief himself.