ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[abingdonboy]

Lots of issues surfacing.

In 2018 we heard about 201 lca mk2 and now the story is minimum 120 and then more depending on performance.

Either IAF is holding larger commitment to first secure more rafales from government or something more is going on.

Personally I think with economical collapse of porkistan lots of things will chang. Poekys won't be able to hold a large airforce anymore. There replacement plans for f7 , Mirage 3 -5 have already failed and jf17 is turning to be a ground junk with many issues. Hence emergency purchase of few j10s.

So what is the future of paf == a much smaller airforce with more capable jets . More j10s down the line to replace f16s and may be 2-4 squadron of some chinese 5th gen on lease by 2040.

I think iaf will watch out for this before committing to additional mk2 over 6 squadrons. And would rather have more rafale and AMCA if above scenario rings true.

This is just some random thoughts. Nothing concrete.

This genuinely made me laugh

PLAAF is inducting 100 pretty sophisticated here annually and IAF is unsure if they’ll need the numbers?

IAF is effectively holding the Govt and LCA project to ransom to get their MRFA

6 SQNs of LCA MK.2 and 6 of MRFA can easily be 18+ SQNs of LCA MK.2 at the same cost. Likely a LOT more than that. In terms of capabilities LCA MK.2 will be >85% of Rafale in most mission profiles

order 2-3 more SQNs of Rafale and order 10+ LCA MK.2 SQNs should be the GoI’s mandate to IAF after this recent debacle from the CAS, they have clearly lost the plot. They are saying they’ll only consider more orders AFTER LCA MK.2 enters service? If this isn’t outright sabotage it’s unforgivable incompetence. How are ADA/HAL meant to plan their production and scale? Do they plan for 6 SQNs over 5-8 year production run or 12 over the same period or 6+6 over a 10+ year production run (assuming IAF order midway through delivery of tranche 1)?

 

[abingdonboy]

No. He said the same thing in 2018 also. Its infact the media which lied thru its teeth.


Listen from 27 mins onward. ACM Dhanoa categorically said that IAF would procure 6 sqd of LCA Mk2 and a total of 12 sqd of LCA. This is the press conference Livefist quoted. They either misquoted him knowingly or misprint it unknowingly.

The 201 figure was reported a number of times and there was also mention later on down the road of 170 units. It’s not true that this figure of 6 has been their position from the start.

Plus the current CAS has said 6 plus more depending on performance(which is a pathetic comment) so even now the numbers aren’t fixed according to IAF


I believe IAF intentionally are vague on these numbers so they do not have to make financial commitments early on

that said they’ve never wavered from the 114 number for MRFA, that’s been consistent for 6 years now.

 

[WARREN SS]

Mk2 would fly with F414 engines. How many 414's has been ordered? Do we have a clear line of sight for engine for both AMCA and Mk2? When will the JV fructify? Even for the planned 120 mk2, we don't have engines as of now. We have to go with a new deal for that. Now keep yourself in that position. AMCA is coming out by 2035, Mk2 is coming out by 2023. Now a product which is coming out in 2023 don't have adequate engines for the promised numbers. What you expect ACM to say?

Bulk orders Will be given only after production orders for aircraft

prototypes have limited import orders



HAL did it the same in LCA MK1A

HAL signs ₹5,375 cr contract with US firm for engines to power Tejas jets

This order marks a major milestone in the execution contract for 83 Tejas jets with IAF.Co-operation will be enhanced with the manufacturing of GE F414 engines in India for the upcoming LCA MkII program

www.livemint.com

 

[Chinmoy]

The 201 figure was reported a number of times and there was also mention later on down the road of 170 units. It’s not true that this figure of 6 has been their position from the start.

Plus the current CAS has said 6 plus more depending on performance(which is a pathetic comment) so even now the numbers aren’t fixed according to IAF


I believe IAF intentionally are vague on these numbers so they do not have to make financial commitments early on

that said they’ve never wavered from the 114 number for MRFA, that’s been consistent for 6 years now.

View attachment 164496

Now there is our problem. First we would start waiving a misreport and when it comes to fore we start waiving some unknown sources.

Take this into account. ADA/HAL has already given the rollout timeline of Mk2 to be 2023. There would be no IOC variant as per them which means after the prototype, it would be direct production variant. So we could assume that by 2027, if everything goes well with HAL, Mk2 would be ready for order(!). Now if we consider an order for 6 sqds i.e a safe estimate of 108 jets, HAL would have to go with fresh order of F 414's. Now how much time it would take for that deal to go thru and delivery to start is something which is not IAF's domain. So what do you expect them to say? Under the current scenario, even this 6 sqds would not come out. So obviously its prudent on their part to say that they would have to see how HAL delivers the initial orders.

 

[abingdonboy]

Now there is our problem. First we would start waiving a misreport and when it comes to fore we start waiving some unknown sources.

Take this into account. ADA/HAL has already given the rollout timeline of Mk2 to be 2023. There would be no IOC variant as per them which means after the prototype, it would be direct production variant. So we could assume that by 2027, if everything goes well with HAL, Mk2 would be ready for order(!). Now if we consider an order for 6 sqds i.e a safe estimate of 108 jets, HAL would have to go with fresh order of F 414's. Now how much time it would take for that deal to go thru and delivery to start is something which is not IAF's domain. So what do you expect them to say? Under the current scenario, even this 6 sqds would not come out. So obviously its prudent on their part to say that they would have to see how HAL delivers the initial orders.

Wait what? You’re saying IAF are not ordering LCA MK.2 in large numbers because they are scared that engines won’t be delivered in time? This is not how it works. IAF signs a contract with the production agency and the production agency delivers the finished product 1-3 years later (36 months for fighter jets). LCA MK1A was signed in March 2021 and within a few months HAL had ordered engines for them.

You want HAL/ADA to start stockpiling engines in case the IAF decides to order it?300++ ALH are in service, have we ever heard of them not being delivered because of a lack of engine supply?

IAF are actively sabotaging the LCA MK.2 if this is their thought process. Never heard such imaginary concerns

 

[Chinmoy]

Bulk orders Will be given only after production orders for aircraft

prototypes have limited import orders



HAL did it the same in LCA MK1A

HAL signs ₹5,375 cr contract with US firm for engines to power Tejas jets

This order marks a major milestone in the execution contract for 83 Tejas jets with IAF.Co-operation will be enhanced with the manufacturing of GE F414 engines in India for the upcoming LCA MkII program

www.livemint.com

Yes. Just like in case of Mk1, after the completion of initial order, mass production order would be placed. Remember that Mk2 is coming out with structural changes which means a trainer and LSP variant would be ordered before the combat variant. Based on its performance and delivery schedule by HAL, further order would be placed by user.
So what's wrong in IAF saying the same?

 

[sakalasiva]

Wait what? You’re saying IAF are not ordering LCA MK.2 in large numbers because they are scared that engines won’t be delivered in time? This is not how it works. IAF signs a contract with the production agency and the production agency delivers the finished product 1-3 years later (36 months for fighter jets). LCA MK1A was signed in March 2021 and within a few months HAL had ordered engines for them.

You want HAL/ADA to start stockpiling engines in case the IAF decides to order it?300++ ALH are in service, have we ever heard of them not being delivered because of a lack of engine supply?

IAF are actively sabotaging the LCA MK.2 if this is their thought process. Never heard such imaginary concerns

Our love for indiginized aircrafts should not blind us. IAF firm on their stance i.e. 6 squadron from 2017 and until now as per shared video. Also current IAF chief told order will increase based on performance of the aircraft. What is the conspiracy in that. Why we are in such a haste

 

[The Shrike]

Sorry @abingdonboy I have to Agree to disagree with you here

Comparing UPA Which was Marred With policy Paralysis And Heavy Corruption

With NDA Which i can say is not good but Above average in performance

The basic difference btw NDA And UPA was To pulling Out India Defence decisions from policy of indecision And
Political corruptions

The South block was infested With Arms Deals Are pimps

That Is Why NDA in its India years Almost Wiped Arms dealers from the south block

But These Forces are Globally strong Lobby
Specifically western nations Backed by there Intelligence agencies

Here is the thread I hope you are following Which was Started by @ezsasa

Which Mentioned the deals cleared by Modi govt Since 2014

Lists of some major defence deals signed/cleared under Modi Sarkar since 2014:

Updated list with country of Origin of the equipment.
========
2014

• 118 Arjun Mk-2 Tanks.
• 262 Barak-1 SAMs.

2015

• 36 Rafale Fighter Jets.
• 22 AH-64E Apache Attack Helicopters. (Delivery completed in 2020)
• 15 CH-47F Chinook Transport Choppers.(Delivery completed in 2020)
• 10 Heron TP MALE UAVs.
• 7 Next-Generation Stealth Frigates.
• 6 Nuclear-Powered Attack Submarines.
• Akash SR-SAM Systems (7 Squadrons).
• 428 L-70 & ZU-23 AD Guns.
• 72 Pipistrel Virus ultra light training aircraft
• 1 Missile Range instrumentation ship
• 1 Ocean Surveillance Ship

2016

• 145 M-777 Ultra Light Howitzers.
• 114 Dhanush Howitzers.
• 83 LCA Tejas Mk-1A.
• 15 Light Combat Helicopter (LCH).
• 464 T-90SM Tanks.
• BrahMos Missile (1 Regiment).
• Pinaka MBRL (2 Regiments).
• 4 P-8i Neptune.
• 2 Deep-submergence rescue vehicle(Delivery completed in 2020)
• Milan-2T ATGM for 925 Crores

2017

• 1,58,279 Advanced Combat Helmets (ACHs).
• Barak-8 MR-SAM Systems (5 Regiments).
• Barak-8 LR-SAM Systems (4 Warships).
• Akash SR-SAM Systems (2 Regiments).
• 100 K-9 Vajra-T Howitzers.
• 44,000 Night Vision Devices (NVDs). +
• 179 HAL Light Combat Helicopters (LCHs).
• 32 HAL Dhruv Helicopters.
• 100 Barak-1 SR-SAMs.
• 2 A-50EI AWACS.
• Dornier Do228 for Indian Navy
• 12 Dornier Do228 for Indian Airforce
• 16 Anti Submarine Shallow Water corvette
• 2 Diving Support Vessel

2018

• 1,86,138 Bullet Proof Jackets (BPJs).
• 5 S-400 Triumf SAM Systems.
• Akash SR-SAM Systems (2 Regiments).
• Barak-8 LR-SAM Systems (7 Warships).
• 150 Advanced Towed Artillery Gun Systems.
• 6 AH-64E Apache Attack Helicopters.
• 22 HAL Dhruv Helicopters.
• 18 HAL Rudra Helicopters.
• 300 155mm Sharang Field Gun Systems.
• 156 BMP-2/2K Infantry Combat Vehicles (ICVs).
• NAG ATGM Systems (300 Missiles & 25 Carriers).
• 131 Barak-1 SR-SAMs.
• 240 Precision Guided Bombs.
• 2 Stealth Frigates (Project 11356).
• 2 Stealth Frigates(Goa Shipyard).
• IAI sky capture C2 system
• 4 Ocean Survey vessels for Indian Navy

2019

• 6 Diesel Electric Attack submarines(Project 75 I)
• 72,400 Sig Sauer 716 (7.62 X 51) (Delivery started in Mar 2020)
• 5000 ATGM
• 750,000 AK-203 Assault rifles
• ~2500 JVPC
• 24 MH-60R Naval Helicopters
• 1 Akula class nuclear submarine
• Unknown quantity Spice 2000 for 300 crores
• Unknown quantity of BVR
• NGMMCB(Next Generation Maritime Mobile Coastal Batteries)-Brahmos
• Mechanical Mine Layer (Self Propelled)
• Software defined radio for Indian Navy
• Aux Power Packs for T-72 & T-90
• EW Systems for Mountain warfare
• 1800 Sniper rifles + 2.7 Million rounds of ammunition
• 120 Short Span Bridging systems by L&T for Indian Army

2020

• 21 Mig-29 + 57 Mig-29 UPG upgrade
• 12 Sukhoi-30
• 10 Ka-31 AEW&C Helicopters
• 5 Fleet Vessel Ship (Turkey + HSL)
• 16,479 Negev 7.62x51 mm LMG
• 22 Sea Guardian drones
• Unknown quantity Spice 2000 for 500 crores
• 13 Mk45(Mod 4) 127 mm Naval guns
• 248 Astra A2A missile
• Software defined Radio for IA
• Unknown quantity of Pinaka Missile
• Development of LRLACM(Long-Range Land Attack Cruise Missile Systems)
• 2nd Phase MAFI, 37 airfields upgrade.
• 72,000 Sig Sauer 716 (7.62 X 51)
• Smart Anti-Airfield Weapon (SAAW)
• 6 AWACS based on A320/A321
• 11 Next Generation Offshore Patrol Vessels (NGOPVs)

2021

• 6 Next Generation Missile Vessels (Anti Surface warfare Corvette) Order for GSL
• 118 Arjun Mk1A for 8400 crore
• APS for Armoured vehicles for 5300 crores
• 293 NAG Missiles, 13 NAMICA
• 8 Arudhra Medium powered radar
• Armour-Piercing Fin-Stabilized Discarding Sabot (APFSDS) 125mm practice tank ammunition
• 27 Kalyani-Paramount M4 APC
• 8 DRDO MANPAD Rfp issued
• 556 ARHMD (Augmented Reality Head Mounted Display) for AD systems , RFI issued.
• Ideaforge SWITCH VTOL UAV - 20 million $.
• 4960 Milan-2T ATGM (Repeat order) for 1,188 Crores
• 1300 Mahindra LSV for 1,056 Crores
• 250 Akash Missile for 500 Crores
• 70,000 AK-203 off the shelf purchase from Russia
• 14 Integrated Anti-Submarine Warfare Defence Suites (IADS) for ₹1,349.95 crore
• Anti Drone system Ordered by Indian Navy, DRDO - BEL
• Anti Drone system Ordered by Indian Air Force worth 150 Crores, Zen Technologies
• 100+ SkyStriker Loitering Munition Ordered by Indian Army
• Additional Mk54 Torpedoes for P-8i for 423 crores ₹
• 12 Light utility Helicopter
• 2 Fixed Base Full Mission Simulators for Jaguar aircraft from HAL for IAF, 357 crores ₹

2022

• Konkurs-M ATGM for 3131 crores ₹ from BDL
• 957 Commander Thermal Imager cum Day sights for T-90 for 1057 crores ₹ from BDL
• 8 Fast Patrol Vessels for Coast Guard for 473 crore ₹ from Goa Shipyard
• 15 Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) Limited Series Production for 3887 crores ₹ from HAL
• Astra-Mk1 (A2A) for 2971 crores ₹ from BDL

Modi Sarkaar - Defence Acquisitions

Lists of some major defence deals signed/cleared under Modi Sarkar since 2014: Updated list with country of Origin of the equipment. ======== 2014 118 Arjun Mk-2 Tanks. 🇮🇳 262 Barak-1 SAMs. 🇮🇱 2015 36 Rafale Fighter Jets. 🇫🇷 22 AH-64E Apache Attack Helicopters. (Delivery completed in 2020)...

defenceforumindia.com

This list is a self goal TBH - "83 LCA Tejas Mk-1A" for example is listed in 2016 while the contract was actually signed only in 2021.

 

[johnj]

Now there is our problem. First we would start waiving a misreport and when it comes to fore we start waiving some unknown sources.

Take this into account. ADA/HAL has already given the rollout timeline of Mk2 to be 2023. There would be no IOC variant as per them which means after the prototype, it would be direct production variant. So we could assume that by 2027, if everything goes well with HAL, Mk2 would be ready for order(!). Now if we consider an order for 6 sqds i.e a safe estimate of 108 jets, HAL would have to go with fresh order of F 414's. Now how much time it would take for that deal to go thru and delivery to start is something which is not IAF's domain. So what do you expect them to say? Under the current scenario, even this 6 sqds would not come out. So obviously its prudent on their part to say that they would have to see how HAL delivers the initial orders.

No TD, or prototype[may be some], only lsp which is pre ioc. and ioc given by iaf, once iaf test fires aams, after delivering some 20~30, foc. iaf buy 5 plus sqn of mwf up to 9 sqn or more depend on mrfa.

 

[IndianHawk]

This genuinely made me laugh

PLAAF is inducting 100 pretty sophisticated here annually and IAF is unsure if they’ll need the numbers?

IAF is effectively holding the Govt and LCA project to ransom to get their MRFA

6 SQNs of LCA MK.2 and 6 of MRFA can easily be 18+ SQNs of LCA MK.2 at the same cost. Likely a LOT more than that. In terms of capabilities LCA MK.2 will be >85% of Rafale in most mission profiles

order 2-3 more SQNs of Rafale and order 10+ LCA MK.2 SQNs should be the GoI’s mandate to IAF after this recent debacle from the CAS, they have clearly lost the plot. They are saying they’ll only consider more orders AFTER LCA MK.2 enters service? If this isn’t outright sabotage it’s unforgivable incompetence. How are ADA/HAL meant to plan their production and scale? Do they plan for 6 SQNs over 5-8 year production run or 12 over the same period or 6+6 over a 10+ year production run (assuming IAF order midway through delivery of tranche 1)?

It doesn't matter what numbers iaf want . 42 sq has been desired for a long time and never achieved. Government hasn't opened the purse. So IAF probably knows it will have to do with less numbers for long time . This may very well be the reason IAF wants more rafale first before committing to mk2 because it knows if more mk2 are committed in future govt might bail out of promised rafales .

 

[IndianHawk]

Economic collapse of Pakistan is an urban myth.
Post 1965 their economy is always under the drain.
They will beg for money, threaten to implode (give me (Pakistan) money or I (Pakistan) will shoot myself in the foot and you (rest of the world) will be left with the mess) or just outright sell their national sovereignty.

They have tried . Chinese aren't playing ball. Look at IMF conditions now . Neither chinese nor American are interested in helping out porkies this time.

Yes porkies will survive but brutal changes are coming there way .

 

[IndianHawk]

Even if Bhikaris are neutered with only a token airforce what about Chinese who will dish out 100 or so 4.5-5 gen planes every year! Holding off Chinese will be a numbers game. We will have to outdo them qualitatively along with decent numbers. Mk2 is a critical cog in that wheel - Pakis will be irrelevant. They probably already are and are reduced to playing second fiddle to Chinese in the region.

We can't match chinese numbers anytime soon . We will have to do what's Japanese have done and build a force with more advanced jets and focus on assemtric warfare against China with SAMs , cruise missiles and longer ranged artillery thrown in mix.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

They have tried . Chinese aren't playing ball. Look at IMF conditions now . Neither chinese nor American are interested in helping out porkies this time.

Yes porkies will survive but brutal changes are coming there way .

PRC might buy part of Pakistan. It appears that their have been suggestions to transfer Pakistan Occupied Kashmir to PRC. This is a very real possibility. Cash for Land scheme.

If things get tough Pakistan will stir problem in Kashmir.
Anti-India sentiment is an universally unifying cause in Pakistan and will successfully divert the attention of ordinary person from real issues plaguing Pakistan.

 

[DeadCritic]

Please keep this thread only about Tejas MK2

 

[IndianHawk]

PRC might buy part of Pakistan. It appears that their have been suggestions to transfer Pakistan Occupied Kashmir to PRC. This is a very real possibility. Cash for Land scheme.

If things get tough Pakistan will stir problem in Kashmir.
Anti-India sentiment is an universally unifying cause in Pakistan and will successfully divert the attention of ordinary person from real issues plaguing Pakistan.

Will take this discussion to porky economics thread. I will post some thoughts when I have more time .

 

[abingdonboy]

It doesn't matter what numbers iaf want . 42 sq has been desired for a long time and never achieved. Government hasn't opened the purse. So IAF probably knows it will have to do with less numbers for long time . This may very well be the reason IAF wants more rafale first before committing to mk2 because it knows if more mk2 are committed in future govt might bail out of promised rafales .

IAF’s obsession with MMRCA/Rafale is 2+ decades old. They haven’t adjusted their approach despite much changing in the meantime. It’s not 2001 anymore and LCA still a pipe dream.

In 2022 LCA MK.2 is a 17.5T MMRCA in its own right. Apparently IAF objected to the MWF (medium weight fighter) nomenclature after ADA created a larger airframe from what was originally planned so instead of doggedly pursuing 100+ Rafale IAF ought to be reimagining their plans based on the changed environment that now exists domestically and in the region.

who else is buying 100+ jets off the shelf other than the oil rich Arabs with no industry to speak of? Koreans, Turks and even Indonesians are thinking about next gen projects of their own. Even Pakis have JF-17 as their backbone and default solution.

So IAF’s world view is that Indian industry are on par with Egyptians, Malaysians etc who are seeking licence assembly of 4th gen jets- ironically HAL is in talks to setup LCA assembly in both (not that I expect this to fructify )

LCA MK.2 can do >90% of the mission profiles of Rafale for maybe 60-70% of the cost. The only real thing Rafale will have on MK.2 come 2030s is payload/range and a slight edge in EW. So yes buy a couple more SQNs of Rafale for DPSA role but 114 more? 6 SQNs of MRFA can easily pay for 10++ LCA MK.2 SQNs. A force whose fleet strength is in freefall isn’t thinking about this?

 

[IndianHawk]

IAF’s obsession with MMRCA/Rafale is 2+ decades old. They haven’t adjusted their approach despite much changing in the meantime. It’s not 2001 anymore and LCA still a pipe dream.

In 2022 LCA MK.2 is a 17.5T MMRCA in its own right. Apparently IAF objected to the MWF (medium weight fighter) nomenclature after ADA created a larger airframe from what was originally planned so instead of doggedly pursuing 100+ Rafale IAF ought to be reimagining their plans based on the changed environment that now exists domestically and in the region.

who else is buying 100+ jets off the shelf other than the oil rich Arabs with no industry to speak of? Koreans, Turks and even Indonesians are thinking about next gen projects of their own. Even Pakis have JF-17 as their backbone and default solution.

So IAF’s world view is that Indian industry are on par with Egyptians, Malaysians etc who are seeking licence assembly of 4th gen jets- ironically HAL is in talks to setup LCA assembly in both (not that I expect this to fructify )

LCA MK.2 can do >90% of the mission profiles of Rafale for maybe 60-70% of the cost. The only real thing Rafale will have on MK.2 come 2030s is payload/range and a slight edge in EW. So yes buy a couple more SQNs of Rafale for DPSA role but 114 more? 6 SQNs of MRFA can easily pay for 10++ LCA MK.2 SQNs. A force whose fleet strength is in freefall isn’t thinking about this?

The only legitimate issue I see is that mk2 is still years away from being a mature ready to war fighter. It will take years to integrate all kinds of weapons to it before it's ready to undertake all kinds of mission .while rafale is already there.
Then again a lot of time has wasted from mrfa drama and now even more rafale will come years later thus negating above advantage.

Another thing which I think is pushing them towards rafale is cancellation of fgfa.

Back in 2005-2015 timeline we had 3 programs running
Mmrca 114 jets in medium range .
Lca program to replace all mig21.
And fgfa for next gen jet with Russia.
And AMCA was supposed to come later to augment fgfa.

At present
Mmrca is stuck at 36 jets ??
Lca mk1 and mk1a is limited to only 123 numbers clearly not replacing all migs that were there . So I see more mk2 as a replacement for all mig21s finally.
And fgfa didn't happen.

So I see demand for more rafales (114 by iaf) as a place taker for cancelled fgfa untill AMCA comes online as a mature platform ( by 2032 hopefully first sq of AMCA should be ready).

This is the reason I think IAF is so adamant of rafale . They have lost fgfa and mmrca didn't come to fruition and they think they need rafale to hold on j20 and su35s of China.

 

[abingdonboy]

The only legitimate issue I see is that mk2 is still years away from being a mature ready to war fighter. It will take years to integrate all kinds of weapons to it before it's ready to undertake all kinds of mission .while rafale is already there.
Then again a lot of time has wasted from mrfa drama and now even more rafale will come years later thus negating above advantage.

Another thing which I think is pushing them towards rafale is cancellation of fgfa.

Back in 2005-2015 timeline we had 3 programs running
Mmrca 114 jets in medium range .
Lca program to replace all mig21.
And fgfa for next gen jet with Russia.
And AMCA was supposed to come later to augment fgfa.

At present
Mmrca is stuck at 36 jets ??
Lca mk1 and mk1a is limited to only 123 numbers clearly not replacing all migs that were there . So I see more mk2 as a replacement for all mig21s finally.
And fgfa didn't happen.

So I see demand for more rafales (114 by iaf) as a place taker for cancelled fgfa untill AMCA comes online as a mature platform ( by 2032 hopefully first sq of AMCA should be ready).

This is the reason I think IAF is so adamant of rafale . They have lost fgfa and mmrca didn't come to fruition and they think they need rafale to hold on j20 and su35s of China.

What product comes out of the gates fully mature? This is an entirely unrealistic expectation and with this mindset no IDDM products will EVER be inducted. Did F16 come out of the box at Block 70 standard?

even IAF’s own Rafales didn’t come to IAF spec (ISE) from day one (only from 36th fighter, 6 years after contract signing and 8 years for all 36 to be of this spec) but IAF expects LCA MK.2 to be mature from the start?

the FGFA shortfall might make sense if IAF had upgraded the SU-30MKI fleet accordingly and with urgency but as it stands they are allowing that fleet to rot away and become more obsolete with each passing year

they are holding the entire national security of India hostage just to get their 20++ year demand for MMRCA fulfilled

 

[abingdonboy]

+ if they are playing these games with LCA MK.2 there is nothing to stop them doing so with AMCA. In 5-7 years I imagine the talk will switch to AMCA not being mature enough so they have to launch MRFA/MMRCA NG (F35) to get an ‘interim’ until AMCA is ‘ready’

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

What product comes out of the gates fully mature? This is an entirely unrealistic expectation and with this mindset no IDDM products will EVER be inducted. Did F16 come out of the box at Block 70 standard?

even IAF’s own Rafales didn’t come to IAF spec (ISE) from day one (only from 36th fighter, 6 years after contract signing and 8 years for all 36 to be of this spec) but IAF expects LCA MK.2 to be mature from the start?

the FGFA shortfall might make sense if IAF had upgraded the SU-30MKI fleet accordingly and with urgency but as it stands they are allowing that fleet to rot away and become more obsolete with each passing year

they are holding the entire national security of India hostage just to get their 20++ year demand for MMRCA fulfilled

I think Indian hawk makes a valid point. Remember every programme in the last 2 decades have fallen through. India spent 300m on FGFA and yet backed out of the project and yet refuses to sanction 300m for AMCA for the last 5 years. 5th gen fighter is a high capital intensive R&D environment. What works in lab cannot be manufacturable. Money has to be spent to create facilities for AMCA. IAF has lost MMRCA and FGFA. Tejas in their view is supposed to have been inducted already.

From IAF perspective, they are required to have 42 sq yesterday. Modi govt has delayed the induction of any platform beyond the 36 Rafales and 83 mk1A. It feels it's operationally compromised. The govt hasn't even sanctioned money for Tejas Mk2 Protos beyond 2. If ADA could do parallel development and integration with many prototypes, timelines would be shorter. In short, the activities of GoI and HAL/ADA themselves are not giving enough confidence to IAF. So they are sticking to their guns.

All it goes down to funding. Development fundings have frozen for large projects. There has been no new developments on Kaveri for very long time. The logical purpose would.be to develop next version of Kaveri with the current prototype. But we have sitting on our hard earned knowledge cos we don't want to spend money.

Either the economy isn't doing tooooo great or India is spending too much on roads infra that won't give shorter returns. All this, instead of spending 2B per year on ac inductions, we have put the bill down the roads where IAF would be requiring 5-6B worth of fighter ac induction every year just to.make up numbers. I never thought I will say it, but Modi govt with respect to defence has been jhumlas