ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

Dark Sorrow

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The only reason why Cabinet Committee on Security haven't yet cleared AMCA is because the non-american engine is not fixed. The GE F414 for first 2 squadrons is just a stop gap measure to continue with platform development and prototype testing. IAF will not go forward with AMCA with large orders as long as it doesn't have a non-american turbofan(why US's trusted UK's RR engine co development was dead fish on arrival). The same will be the fate of Tejas. 83 + 40 = 123 Tejas fighters already have GE engines. IAF will not let it go above 200 aircraft fleets.
Their is no evidence of what you are claiming. Any engine technology we get from west will be beholden to American sanctions.
The result of limited induction of AMCA Mk. 1 is simply the cost and lot of new unproven technologies. Testing will take a lot of time, coupled with IAF's lack of experience to work with 5th gen aircraft. Everything will have to be developed from ground up.
Even during Tejas we had a chance of non-American engine yet we decided to go with American due to their reliability, economy and performance.

Even Rafale itself is depend on American sub-assembles. Threat of US sanctions have not stopped us from going with Israeli, US or European systems.

The reason that AMCA Mk. 1 is inducted in limited amount due to US sanctions is not true.
The reason that AMCA Mk. 1 is inducted in limited amount is because ADA,HAL, IAF and our defense establishment want to get their feet wet (have extensive trial) before inducting in large number.

Once AMCA is air-worthy, IAF will have to develop new tactics and strategy, new SOP will have to be formulated not just for the aircraft but complete spectrum (AD in conjugation with IA, IAF, IN; FAC, etc). All this takes time.

While this is being done Mk2 improvements will continue and once everyone has confidence on the platform AMCA Mk. 2 will be inducted in large numbers.
 

Vaibhavseafarer

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Yah, keyboard warriors know much more than those spent their whole life on wars.
If they are wrong, they will lose their job, their pension, even their lives.
If you are wrong, you will lose......nothing!
Hands down to Indian military leadership
Sig Sauer case is latest.
 

Varzone

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Yah, keyboard warriors know much more than those spent their whole life on wars.
If they are wrong, they will lose their job, their pension, even their lives.
If you are wrong, you will lose......nothing!
Who got punished for what in the last 75 years? These corrupt babus are immune...nothing happens to them. We have seen plenty scandals around military acquisitions in India with no consequences or questions asked.
 

India Super Power

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Yah, keyboard warriors know much more than those spent their whole life on wars.
If they are wrong, they will lose their job, their pension, even their lives.
If you are wrong, you will lose......nothing!
Be happy u have got good leadership in military and bureaucracy
Don't ask about us
Way beyond horrible
 

knathan

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By putting sanction on us by US, is US will get benefits or losses? How much?
 

johnj

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Main issue was that Russians were not ready to accept Indian mission computer and software and wanted their proprietary control on all systems.
Russians were also not ready for Indian avionics.
I don't about these, but from open articles Russians not allowing access to their fifth gen pgrm to Indians.
In the case of mission computer and software, what kind of mission computer and software, becz there is two programs, one is 5th gen for Russia, [like amca mk1/100% russian] and from Russian 5th gen , we and them build a new fgfa [two seater] with tech from both countries, its like su27 two seater converted into mki[su37].
Snice, they're treating IAF/DRDO officials like children, and IAF don't like it, after 5th gen engine mishap, IAF pulled out, and saying work share is two low and paying half the price[3 bill $] and not enough stealth.
I think, I missed the article about ''mission computer and software'', any link for it ? thnks.
Also Russians happy to use Indian tech on fgfa[not in su57].
 

johnj

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As per IAF AMCA, MRFA, MKI, Rafale and Mirage-2K fighters will primarly be used against PLAAF. Currently Tejas doesn't fit in IAF doctrine against PLAAF except for point defense and minor incursion if needed. Bulk of operations are going to be carried out by AMCA, MRFA, MKI, Rafale and Mirage-2K.
When AMCA arrive, mki starts retiring. Tejas mk2 replace mirage 2k. - iaf theory.
Against PLAAF, iaf use all jets if need arise, from light to heavy, unlike mig 21, lca mk1a fully bvr capable, and identify a fighter target 180 km away. Question is not about defensive, but offensive, inside US allay. In Chinese case US don't care what happen in himalayas or Tibet regions. So what about 'US allay'.
 

johnj

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That is an excuse of IAF. When inducted, Tejas Mk. 2 will hold on its on against Chinese J-10 and J-16. It will scare Chinese pilots, I guarantee.
Very funny, tejas don't see j10s, PLAAF deploy Su27/30/35 series, J11abcde. J16 and mostly j20 against India, j 10 used for defensive roles or troop support and tejas series need to over come s400.h series, s300 and other sams to engage j10. PLAAF mostly prefer j20 against India.
 

johnj

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Yes, the MWF has still not flown.
But do you really feel that the task of bringing the MWF to fruition will be as difficult or even more difficult than bringing the AMCA to fruition.
The MWF is an evolution of the basic LCA mk1 design while the AMCA is an whole new design. Stealth shaping and use of radar deflecting /radar absorbing materials is a part of designing an 5th generation aircraft. Many other never developed before technologies like EOTS will probably be part of the AMCA.

So which programme has more chances of succeeding in the given time frame.
MWF or AMCA.

Nobody is trying to belittle the role of the M2000. But the IAF will and should plan for the future also. The MWF is a piece of the future.

A lot of people initially had deep reservations on the LCA mk1 but I believe IAF pilots who have flown the aircraft say it behaves even better than the M2000. Its easier to fly than the M2000.

Let the MWF come out and fly. I am sure once the IAF pilots get their hands on the plane they would be happy with the aircraft.

Please have faith in our aerospace community. After going through so much of trials and tribulations in developing the LCA mk1 I am fairly confident that with all the experience gained they would realise the MWF /LCA mk2 within the end of this decade.

Many would say that the IAF is the least receptive to indigenous efforts as compared to the Navy and even the Army. But after tasting success in the LCA mk1a and the coming LCA mk2 their opinions might change.

As far as the engine is concerned I fully agree that an indigenous engine should power the LCA mk1 and LCA mk2. I believe it is work in progress. Hope that we succeed sooner than later.

Perpetual dependence on imported war planes is not an ideal situation. Though our starting attempts at indigenisation may not be state of the art, we should persist and improve our products in successive iterations.

If we aspire to be a great power self reliance in defence is an imperative not an option.
Tejas mk1/a series use US engine/no desi option, Rest AMCA/Tejas mk2 gets indigenous engine.
IAF can only use what they got, Mirage capable of pin point strike[thanks to Israel] and having better EW suite compared to jaguar.
 

Dark Sorrow

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By putting sanction on us by US, is US will get benefits or losses? How much?
Its not about benefit or loss.
It is about maintaining hegemony and bending the other party to your will.
 

Dark Sorrow

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I don't about these, but from open articles Russians not allowing access to their fifth gen pgrm to Indians.
In the case of mission computer and software, what kind of mission computer and software, becz there is two programs, one is 5th gen for Russia, [like amca mk1/100% russian] and from Russian 5th gen , we and them build a new fgfa [two seater] with tech from both countries, its like su27 two seater converted into mki[su37].
Snice, they're treating IAF/DRDO officials like children, and IAF don't like it, after 5th gen engine mishap, IAF pulled out, and saying work share is two low and paying half the price[3 bill $] and not enough stealth.
I think, I missed the article about ''mission computer and software'', any link for it ? thnks.
Also Russians happy to use Indian tech on fgfa[not in su57].
It was about FGFA. WE aren't interested in Su-57 as such.
We wanted to modify and customize FGFA in line with MKI where we you have our mission computer and software and world replace a lot of Russian avionics with Indian avionics. We also needed complete ToT and wanted to replace Russian EW suite with Israeli one and for that entire radar code had to exposed to us.
 

Dark Sorrow

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When AMCA arrive, mki starts retiring. Tejas mk2 replace mirage 2k. - iaf theory.
Against PLAAF, iaf use all jets if need arise, from light to heavy, unlike mig 21, lca mk1a fully bvr capable, and identify a fighter target 180 km away. Question is not about defensive, but offensive, inside US allay. In Chinese case US don't care what happen in himalayas or Tibet regions. So what about 'US allay'.
If push comes to shove any AF will use any assets. What I am talking about is AMCA (once arrived), MRFA, MKI, Rafale and Mirage-2K will form primary strike package.
 

johnj

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If push comes to shove any AF will use any assets. What I am talking about is AMCA (once arrived), MRFA, MKI, Rafale and Mirage-2K will form primary strike package.
Yes.
MRFA & MRCA, difference plze, MRFA means tejas mk 2 ?
Mirage gets replaced by lca mk2, - IAF, mig 29 - unknown.
 

no smoking

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Ok then they won't be able to fly because those american engines would be dead for lack of spares. That is the hold that USA will have over India if India doesn't comply with US demands.
Well, every weapons or high-tech equipment imported has the risk of being banned in the future when you have problems with supplying countries. You need to manage that risk not avoid that risk completely!

Even if you rely on indigenous products, there is some components are being imported or being made by the machines or raw materials imported from western countries.

And remember, the pilots are supposed to risk their lives for the good of the nation. Otherwise don't volunteer to be a pilot for the IAF.
What a keyboard warrior!
Yes, pilots are supposed to sacrifice their lives for the country. But the country also has responsibility to protect their lives with maximum effort.
 

Dark Sorrow

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Yes.
MRFA & MRCA, difference plze, MRFA means tejas mk 2 ?
Mirage gets replaced by lca mk2, - IAF, mig 29 - unknown.
MRCA is an acronym for Indian MRCA competition.

MRFA (MMRCA 2.0) is is an acronym for new Indian MRCA competition.

MRCA included six jets
  1. Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet
  2. Dassault Rafale
  3. Eurofighter Typhoon
  4. Lockheed Martin F-16
  5. Mikoyan MiG-35
  6. Saab JAS 39 Gripen
and 36 Dassault Rafale were selected.

MRFA includes
  • Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet
  • Boeing F-15EX
  • Dassault Rafale
  • Eurofighter Typhoon
  • Lockheed Martin F-21 (A variant of F-16V with 14 customization for Indian requirements)
  • Mikoyan MiG-35
  • Saab JAS-39 Gripen E/F
  • Sukhoi Su-35
 

flanker99

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They'll spend another 10 years on this new MRFA circus. Then order maybe 2-3 squadrons. All the while dodging indigenous alternatives. Rinse and Repeat.
Indigenous option needs to be there on time mk2 still has not flown yet and tedbf is a paper plane....we all know how long it will take for something to come out of mrfa...if drdo,hal,mod have any sense then they will use this time to prove their competence and then force mk2 and tedbf down AF's throats just like navy had to accept dhruv at the end.
 

Blademaster

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Well, every weapons or high-tech equipment imported has the risk of being banned in the future when you have problems with supplying countries. You need to manage that risk not avoid that risk completely!
If you run the risk of the planes being grounded due to lack of engine spare parts then it is essentially prudent that you avoid that risk entirely!! Better that you have something flying albeit not as advanced than having nothing flying with the latest tech

Even if you rely on indigenous products, there is some components are being imported or being made by the machines or raw materials imported from western countries.
That's where risk management comes in. Other than engine parts, those foreign components don't prevent the planes from flying. The engine does and hence IAF needs a surefire way of making sure that it can fly those planes in face of severe US sanctions. That is an essential consideration the IAF needs to take into account.


What a keyboard warrior!
Yes, pilots are supposed to sacrifice their lives for the country. But the country also has responsibility to protect their lives with maximum effort.
Say all you want but the IAF needs to be told that they fight with what we have, not what they wish to have. IAF is falling into the trap of waiting for the next best thing before fighting. The enemy will not give you that time. So yeah I am gonna bitchslap IAF and say you volunteer to be the pilots for the IAF. You fight with what we have and stop bitching. As for protecting their lives with maximum effort does not mean caving in to all their demands and wishlist. They are given what we can afford to buy and can make because IAF is only one component of the overall defense plan and IAF needs to get aboard instead of sulking like a petulant child.
 

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