ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

johnj

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NEZ of Meteor is about 60 km.
Why should be use such an expensive missile for half of its capabilities? Its waste of money and resources. We are not a rich country as such that can afford to waste money as such.
Wouldn't Astra Mk. 1 or Mk2 be better alternative for the same engagement.
With Meteor the goal is to out-range enemy so your aircraft won't be in harm's way.
NEZ of Meteor is about 60 km under electronic warfare conductions. In other words, meteor can kill advanced fighter jet under 125km with midway updates with ease.
 

Aditya Ballal

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FalconSlayers

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NEZ of Meteor is about 60 km under electronic warfare conductions. In other words, meteor can kill advanced fighter jet under 125km with midway updates with ease.
This is what our former Air Chief Marshall had said about it’s NEZ, its 3 times that of AIM-120 AMRAAM so its safe to assume that its max range is also thrice of an AIM-120 AMRAAM.
“Meteor BVRAAM (Beyond Visual Range Air to Air Missile) provides an operational range of up to 120kms, and currently has the largest No-escape Zone (NEZ) among air-to-air missiles. This means that the missile leaves very little chance for any agile target to escape once the latter is tracked. According to former Indian Air Force chief A.Y. Tipnis, the NEZ of the Meteor is thrice that of the current AIM-120 AMRAAM missile.”

But still we need to go for Astra MK-III because we may never know if the Meteors we’re getting are some lowered “Export versions” with a bit less capability than the original. With our indigenous systems, we make and get the original.
 

thebakofbakchod

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Man its so hard to be optimistic about this when the deadline gets shifted behind by months every other week, and IAF keeps giving mixed signals to this. Hope they can at least fly the prototype by 2025
 

Ar.gaurav28

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This is what our former Air Chief Marshall had said about it’s NEZ, its 3 times that of AIM-120 AMRAAM so its safe to assume that its max range is also thrice of an AIM-120 AMRAAM.
NEZ of meteor is 60km due to the technology it is embedded with, ram jet engine provides better chase but thinking it will prolong its max range by 3 time is superficial. MBDA isn’t a fool that they wouldn’t be boasting it if their missiles range was twice that of AIM-120 let alone 3 times as they boast about its 3 times NEZ!
 

MonaLazy

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MK2 prototype to go on assembly jig within 2-3 months
No TD or PV for Mk2, the first prototype is straight to LSP in IOC!


August 2022, LCA Mk2 will roll out! :hair:

Anyways, if we are patient and stick around, this is what we get-
Better drag reduction for faster trans-sonic acceleration (retractable probe also for this)
IRST
DCMAWS by IRDE (4 sensors on fin forward, spine & belly for spherical coverage)
EWS with internal jammer & RWR
CMDS
OBOGS + AAR can fly for 8+ hours
1350 (centerline to minimise supersonic drag)/1700L drop tanks
Incorporates RAM for RF signature suppression
wing area more or less same as Mk1, wing shaping is better

Indian, Russian & Western weapons
ASRAAM CCM on wing edge
11 hard points (vs 7 on Mk1/A)
8 BVRs (vs 4 on Mk1/A).. no other aircraft of this class available in the world can carry so many
scalp
crystal maze
spice-1000 family
astra
rudram-1/2/3
bombs
nirbhay
meteor or astra mk2 (astra mk2 on par or better than meteor)
brahmos ng
..heavy stand off with 580+kms range
3 stations with 1800 kg class weapons carriage can integrate any weapon available in the world
 
Last edited:

India Super Power

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No TD or PV for Mk2, the first prototype is straight to LSP in IOC!


August 2022, LCA Mk2 will roll out! :hair:

Anyways, if we are patient and stick around, this is what we get-
Better drag reduction for faster trans-sonic acceleration (retractable probe also for this)
IRST
DCMAWS by IRDE (4 sensors on fin forward, spine & belly for spherical coverage)
EWS with internal jammer & RWR
CMDS
OBOGS + AAR can fly for 8+ hours
1350 (centerline to minimise supersonic drag)/1700L drop tanks
Incorporates RAM for RF signature suppression
wing area more or less same as Mk1, wing shaping is better

Indian, Russian & Western weapons
ASRAAM CCM on wing edge
11 hard points (vs 7 on Mk1/A)
8 BVRs (vs 4 on Mk1/A).. no other aircraft of this class available in the world can carry so many
scalp
crystal maze
spice-1000 family
astra
rudram-1/2/3
bombs
nirbhay
meteor or astra mk2 (astra mk2 on par or better than meteor)
brahmos ng
..heavy stand off with 580+kms range
3 stations with 1800 kg class weapons carriage can integrate any weapon available in the world
InshaAllah
Bismillah
Ola o uber
 

Rajaraja Chola

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Too similar to paraast (defeat) otherwise a good choice.



Why don't we resurrect the Marut nameplate? Just like IN does with decommissioned ACCs and subs? This is closest to the manner that original Marut program should have been run.



MP is responsible for Mk1A actually, not Mk2 which is entirely IAFs push.



Dhanda hai par ganda hai ye! That's the real reason! Explained in some detail below:



They have sir. There are wheels within wheels within wheels. Over time MBDA has changed their position so many times that even the God of dance Nataraj himself would be proud. Even MBDA is not a monolith. Initially, events were controlled by MBDA France, but sensing business slipping away MBDA UK has come around of late. Here's an attempt at setting the record straight:

The basics:
Why Meteor BVR & ASRAAM WVR?
1. IAF is mighty impressed with the missiles
2. Fleet standardization- they wanted Su-30s, Tejas Mk1A & M2K to carry the same combo.

The hems & haws in chronological order:
September 2015
The IAF, HAL and the MoD agreed on specifications for a new improved version called the Tejas Mark 1A, with five specific improvements — including AESA radar and the Meteor missile.
MBDA’s Meteor BVR missile has the matchless ability to engage enemy fighters 200-250 km away, before the adversaries can fire their own missiles. For shooting down aircraft at closer ranges, the IAF wants the Tejas Mark 1A to also carry MBDA’s eponymous Advanced Short Range Air-to-Air Missile (ASRAAM).

2017
The IAF issued a formal tender to HAL — termed request for proposal (RFP) — stipulating that the Tejas Mark 1A must have the Meteor and ASRAAM.

Own comment: IAF made a huge mistake by making its love for meteor so obvious as to cement it into the Mk1A standard- the reason why the vendor became overconfident and cocky revealed in interactions with IAF over next few years.

February 19, 2018
In a letter to the IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal B S Dhanoa, MBDA pointed out that the Meteor “has already been successfully integrated with 3 major European platforms and sensors… The risks inherent to such a demanding Tejas integration programme will be significantly minimised by the selection of a European radar, similar to those with which we have already qualified Meteor”.

May 17, 2018
MBDA wrote again to the IAF chief that with six nations involved in MBDA, clearing the Meteor’s integration with a non-European radar would be complicated. “Therefore, from a purely technical point of view, and considering the required clearances, Meteor on LCA may only be considered with a European radar,” stated MBDA.

May 29, 2018
MBDA wrote yet again to the IAF chief, stating: “As design authority and OEM (original equipment manufacturer) of the Meteor missile, we wish to confirm to you that integration of this missile can only be possible with a European radar and our proprietary data link.” Ruling out any possibility of the Israeli firm carrying out the integration, MBDA categorically stated: “No other mode of integration is possible and any other suggestion from third parties is misinformed.”

own comment: Israel may have offered to integrate the meteor with 2052 AESAR, but MBDA was pushing for European radar because dadagiri and overconfidence I alluded to above.

June 21, 2018
MBDA wrote: “MBDA will not be able to offer Meteor for (Tejas) LCA, if a non-European radar is chosen for that platform — we will not be able to gain 6 Partner Nation clearance. Furthermore, the integration of Meteor is only possible using MBDA’s proprietary datalink technology. No other 3rd party is capable of carrying out Meteor integration.”

July 13, 2018
in response to an IAF query whether the Meteor could be integrated onto the Uttam AESA radar the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) was developing, MBDA gave conditional acceptance on July 13, 2018. Writing to the deputy chief, MBDA wrote: “integration would be perfectly feasible (provided) this DRDO ‘UTTAM’ radar would need to be shown to be completely indigenous.”
Making its security concerns clear, MBDA wrote: “Security concerns (for all parties) over the implementation, architecture and day to day operation would need to be addressed (and) the 6 partner nations would need to obtain access to full working prototypes (of the Uttam radar) before progressing to the next stage.”

Own comment: Sensing a gigantic business opportunity (all the desi fighters with Uttam in their nose) they (conditionally) offered to integrate Uttam with meteor.

October 26, 2018
Despite these repeated cautions from MBDA, the IAF and MoD allowed HAL to choose the lowest-priced AESA radar that could be integrated onto the Tejas. Asked how it had chosen the Elta ELM 2052 AESA radar for the Tejas Mark 1A and ruled out the Thales and Saab radars, HAL chief R Madhavan stated: “The contract has been finalised as per HAL’s techno-commercial (procurement) procedures and the lowest bidder was chosen.”
The Ministry of Defence (MoD) and the Indian Air Force (IAF) watched from the sidelines as Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) signed two contracts with Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI), one was for the ELM-2052 “active electronically scanned array” (AESA) radar, developed by IAI subsidiary, Elta. The other was for Elta’s “electronic warfare” (EW) system.
All through 2018, the IAF has known that MBDA would allow the Meteor missile to be integrated only with European (or, conditionally Indian) AESA radars. Yet, the IAF remained silent while HAL’s tendering processes resulted in the selection of the Israeli ELM 2052 AESA radar — and the rejection of two European AESA radars offered by French firm Thales, and Swedish firm Saab.
MBDA France informed the government that they would not integrate their weapon on any Israeli or Russian platform and even refused it to be integrated into a legacy platform like Mirage-2000.


Own comment: MBDA trying to act difficult was given a silent FO by MoD & DRDO & IAF. MBDA France wanted to earlier push European radar, when that cross-sell failed, safeguarding their own selfish business interests they refused integration with Israeli & Russian platforms even M2K so that meteor remains Rafale exclusive in IAF inventory and IAF (being smitten by meteor) is forced to buy more Rafales in turn. It's pure business- all that talk about security concerns with Israeli/Russian radar is just hogwash. But the cartel seems to be falling apart:

February 15, 2020
While it looked like a unilateral decision by France imposed on other key partners in MBDA like the United Kingdom, India might have recently tasted some success in breaking this blockade when MBDA UK agreed to sell and integrate Meteor BVRAAMs on the upgraded Mirage-2000 fleet of Indian Air Force, which looks like a major disagreement with the MBDA France which was trying to make Meteor BVRAAMs, Dassault Rafale Exclusive to secure their chances for further orders of the same platform from India.
MBDA France had told Indian Air Force that they would not integrate the Meteor missile on either Russian platforms or with the Israeli equipment which can create issues thus ruling out it from Sukhoi 30 and Tejas Mk1A fleet which might be further extended to future IAF fleet of MWF-AF, ORCA and even AMCA fighter jets since they will not use any European radar which MBDA UK believes could kill sale of Meteor missile in large numbers to India.
MBDA France condition of European Radar is already falling apart since both UK and Italian Air Forces have decided to arm Meteor missile on Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II which comes equipped with AN/APG-81 AESA) radar system designed by Northrop Grumman Electronic Systems.
While India is developing Solid Fuel Ducted Ramjet (SFDR) aka Astra Mk2 jointly with Russia which has Ramjet propulsion and has operational performance matching close to Meteor missile but the missile is far from being ready to be deployed from any fighter jet and still going through phase-1 developmental trials from the ground launch stations and probably will take close to a decade before all developmental trials are completed and it is ready to enter production.
Sensing a business opportunity here, idrw.org has been informed that, MBDA UK has offered to jointly develop a Meteor derived missile with Indian technology created for Astra MkI and MkII in a very short period which can be jointly locally manufactured for the whole fleet of IAF fighter fleet if accepted by India.
India already has replaced Russian Agat 9B1103M active radar seeker borrowed from RVV-AE (R-77) BVRAAM used on the Astra missile with an Indian Ku-band seeker developed by the DRDO and reportedly has been working on an enhanced version of the seeker for the MkII program for a quick turn around program, MBDA UK might have offered Meteor derived missile with Indian Ku-band seeker on similar lines it offered to integrate AESA radar seeker from AAM-4B BVRAAM into new Meteor derived missile called as Joint New Air-to-Air Missile (JNAAM) which MBDA UK is developing with Japan for its F-35 fleet.


Why only European radar? (the official MBDA version)
A BVR missile like the Meteor must be tightly integrated with the fighter’s radar. At the time the missile is fired, its on-board seeker cannot lock onto the target, which is too far away. During the initial period of the missile’s flight, the aircraft’s radar tracks the adversary fighter and transmits directions to the missile through two-way data links. Only when the Meteor reaches a few tens of kilometres from the enemy fighter does its on-board seeker get activated and homes onto the target. Given the missile’s tight relationship with the radar, there is a need for deep integration and sharing of source codes.
In its letters to the IAF, MBDA has cited technology security concerns that integrating the Meteor with Israeli radar would endanger secret source codes and technologies. MBDA, a consortium of firms from six European countries, also believes getting clearances from six capitals would be complicated.

HAL's view-
From HAL’s perspective, Elta’s ELM 2052 AESA is the logical choice of radar. The Israeli firm developed this radar specifically for the IAF’s on-going upgrade of 61 Jaguars. For that upgrade — which involves fitting AESA radar to enhance the Jaguar’s capability — Elta developed the ELM 2052 AESA radar at its own cost, apparently in the expectation that it would also find place in future Tejas upgrades. With the IAF poised to clear the Jaguar upgrade, the ELM 2052 radar could quickly go into production in India in an IAI-HAL joint venture.
With the ELM 2052 AESA radar being built for two fighter programmes — the Jaguar upgrade and the Tejas Mark 1A — it would work out significantly cheaper than the Thales and Saab radars, making Elta’s price bid the most attractive.

Why is ASRAAM WVR not impacted?
The choice of radar would not impact the integration of ASRAAM. Being a short-range missile, ASRAAM is guided by its own seeker from launch onwards, and so does not require integration with the on-board radar.


Sources:


Do we know how many Jags have been updated?
 

MonaLazy

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Do we know how many Jags have been updated?
No idea


ADA to ask for more funds from MOD to built 3rd and 4th pre production units of Tejas Mk-2.

Already the delivery of 8 GE F 414 engines has been completed.

:cruisin2:

This fund requirement to build all four PP units was incidentally highlighted by SJ in latest edition of IAH also.
 

flanker99

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No idea


ADA to ask for more funds from MOD to built 3rd and 4th pre production units of Tejas Mk-2.

Already the delivery of 8 GE F 414 engines has been completed.

:cruisin2:

This fund requirement to build all four PP units was incidentally highlighted by SJ in latest edition of IAH also.
That is probably what idrw's source is...now they have written an article and every OsiNt guy is copy pasting it
 

Rajaraja Chola

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No idea


ADA to ask for more funds from MOD to built 3rd and 4th pre production units of Tejas Mk-2.

Already the delivery of 8 GE F 414 engines has been completed.

:cruisin2:

This fund requirement to build all four PP units was incidentally highlighted by SJ in latest edition of IAH also.
Hmm. So ADA telling they will take Mk2 to production with only 2 production variants is not going to be true. I was surprised if ADA capabilities have taken a huge leap. Seems they have fooled the govt, public and IAF again.

Seems the first one would.be used to stress test, second as flying prototype. And third and fourth will be production variant. So the timeline of the programme will be extended. Or is someone sabotaging the program from inside ADA?
 

LakshmanPST7

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Hmm. So ADA telling they will take Mk2 to production with only 2 production variants is not going to be true. I was surprised if ADA capabilities have taken a huge leap. Seems they have fooled the govt, public and IAF again.

Seems the first one would.be used to stress test, second as flying prototype. And third and fourth will be production variant. So the timeline of the programme will be extended. Or is someone sabotaging the program from inside ADA?
4 Prototypes was always the plan... It is not some new development...
 

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