ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

no smoking

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Isn't this the same for HAL? Not enough orders?
No, different issue.
Dassault's production line has the capacity of 36 Rafale annually at full rate. The lack of order force them to keep low production speed. If there is a war tomorrow, they can expand the production over 100 per year in short period of notice.

HAL, on the other hand, is still on its learning curve. They lack the experience, man power, equipment to set up a high volume production line. In other words, even if a 200 order is put down, their will still be struggling to increase their production for a long time.

For context, spitfire said India is useless in production and SAAB can help us in that aspect. But afaik HAL has managed to deliver the MKIs on schedule. So, on what you said, shouldn't that be holding true for HAL too? As the problem lies in the number of orders and not HAL's capability in production. Of course, by no means I am saying HAL is as capable as Dassault.
Well, the MKIs were rolled out from a Russian designed & built production line. Most of problems have been fixed by Russians, the production line is fully matured. The LCA production line, however, have to be done by Indians: what equipment you need to import, how often the equipment need to be maintained, is the raw material right for higher volume production, etc, etc.

Putting a product from lab into mass production is a complicated, it will be even more complicated if the product is a modern jet.
 

MonaLazy

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Best engine would've been a modified AL31F engine or if we could barter, AL41F with TVC.
Nope. It would have been too big to even fit inside Mk2!

Both the F404 & 414 have a max dia of .89m and a length of 3.91m whereas an AL31F has 1.28m max dia and 4.945m length.

Those two engines from GE are the best until Kaveri/iterations come online- EJ200 is a distant third as a good fit.

This is without getting into the materials, durability, maintainability, higher fuel consumption, failure and other issues plaguing Russian jet engines. Western engines are a class apart.

I've been reading about MWF quite a lot. It seems this bird can't become anything more than a Gripen(at best).
Maybe your comprehension skills need to keep up with your reading ability. You have got it all wrong. For a start how many Gripens would you have to buy to be able to create an Iron Bird like facility in house in India? How many Gripens would you have to buy to be able to model the CFD of a double delta and extend it into Mk2 and even AMCA to be able to come up with a design based heavily on computer simulation? How many Gripens would have you have to buy to create a world-class aero infra in the country? Tejas is not just the plane but the coming together of IAF, aero establishments, DPSUs, PSUs, academia & SMEs- besides global vendors. Serious recommendation- please see the Hamara Tejas series on youtube from episode 1 to the latest available.

Let's see where the Brazilians (who made the same choice you recommend) are with their aero industry in one or even two decades from now. Are they even thinking of a from scratch 4.5/5th gen fighter beyond the Gripen? Last I heard they are still struggling with getting the Gripen-Es 36 of which they ordered back in Oct 2014!

For comparison sake just contrast the 36 Gripen-Es delivery with 36 Rafale F3Rs of IAF- bulk of which are already in service.

With the Tejas now in service and wowing audiences at air shows- the whole world knows we've cracked it. It is traitorous to throw all that away for imports- the hard part is done and dusted- now we need to capitalize on the work done and extrapolate from here so future requirements come to fruition.

Same reason why IAF is keeping shut cause they already know we're making something that already exists and has been offered to us several times. Given the timeline it will take to enter production, any sane person would ask Govt to procure more fighters from outside.

This is where GOI and ADA could've lessened MK2's budget(support only till 2-3 LSP get made) and go full throttle for twin engine TEDBF/ORCA common platform having frontal stealth.
Do you think you know service requirements better than them?

TEDBF is taking shape because the Navy wants it- they want a twin-engine for added safety in the corrosive environs of the sea with limited spares/resources available on ACC. ORCA is not because the IAF does not want it- the cost of flying a twin-engine is 40% more than a single-engine owing to the fuel consumed by the second engine.

Going at their respective pace- the Mk2 will come earlier than any MII MRFA- or at the same time in the worst case- which is the end of this decade.

Saturn engines have below avg reliability but higher thrust. GE have everything but will never let us touch the likes of GE F110 engines.
You can always lower the thrust output and increase the life of the engine- the EDE path instead of the EPE path for F414. Indeed, that's the direction Snecma (now Safran) took with Rafale's M88s.

Launched in 2008, the M88 TCO (“Total Cost of Ownership”) programme was initiated to further improve engine durability and bring support costs down. Capitalising on the ECO project, SAFRAN AIRCRAFT ENGINES was able to upgrade the high-pressure compressor and the high pressure turbine of the M88-2: cooling is ameliorated and stronger components have been introduced, boosting durability by up to 50%. Life expectancy between overhaul has been considerably expanded for a number of modules, helping further minimise the impact of planned maintenance on engine availability.

The M88 is the subject of a constant improvement effort by SAFRAN AIRCRAFT ENGINES, leading to the latest M88-4e version, which builds on the TCO programme. This version is now in final qualification tests. Production deliveries are expected shortly, and from 2012 RAFALE Aircraft will come out of the production line with m88-4es fitted on them.

 
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Whitecollar

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Nope. It would have been too big to even fit inside Mk2!

Both the F404 & 414 have a max dia of .89m and a length of 3.91m whereas an AL31F has 1.28m max dia and 4.945m length.

Those two engines from GE are the best until Kaveri/iterations come online- EJ200 is a distant third as a good fit.

This is without getting into the materials, durability, maintainability, higher fuel consumption, failure and other issues plaguing Russian jet engines. Western engines are a class apart.



Maybe your comprehension skills need to keep up with your reading ability. You have got it all wrong. For a start how many Gripens would you have to buy to be able to create an Iron Bird like facility in house in India? How many Gripens would you have to buy to be able to model the CFD of a double delta and extend it into Mk2 and even AMCA to be able to come up with a design based heavily on computer simulation? How many Gripens would have you have to buy to create a world-class aero infra in the country? Tejas is not just the plane but the coming together of IAF, aero establishments, DPSUs, PSUs, academia & SMEs- besides global vendors. Serious recommendation- please see the Hamara Tejas series on youtube from episode 1 to the latest available.

Let's see where the Brazilians (who made the same choice you recommend) are with their aero industry in one or even two decades from now. Are they even thinking of a from scratch 4.5/5th gen fighter beyond the Gripen? Last I heard they are still struggling with getting the Gripen-Es 36 of which they ordered back in Oct 2014!

For comparison sake just contrast the 36 Gripen-Es delivery with 36 Rafale F3Rs of IAF- bulk of which are already in service.

With the Tejas now in service and wowing audiences at air shows- the whole world knows we've cracked it. It is traitorous to throw all that away for imports- the hard part is done and dusted- now we need to capitalize on the work done and extrapolate from here so future requirements come to fruition.



Do you think you know service requirements better than them?

TEDBF is taking shape because the Navy wants it- they want a twin-engine for added safety in the corrosive environs of the sea with limited spares/resources available on ACC. ORCA is not because the IAF does not want it- the cost of flying a twin-engine is 40% more than a single-engine owing to the fuel consumed by the second engine.

Going at their respective pace- the Mk2 will come earlier than any MII MRFA- or at the same time in the worst case- which is the end of this decade.



You can always lower the thrust output and increase the life of the engine- the EDE path instead of the EPE path for F414. Indeed, that's the direction Snecma (now Safran) took with Rafale's M88s.




Dude...easy. What I meant was even Gripen isn't a worthy medium role fighter as it's presented. Compare a Gripen to F-16. US and China both aren't fools. One refrains from selling higher thrust engine(which is required for higher power generation to support more TRTM AESA having better detection range or a higher powered EW and jamming suite). Other uses it on more than 500 J10s. Now I know J10 is a slouchy bulky fighter...but to put such confidence in a faulty poor performance engine like AL31 should be madness, right??
To say that we are ahead of China in avaiation dept will also be wrong just because of their project completion speed and unethical but successful copy pasting of latest tech(don't support this at all).

Abd don't even talk about IAF. We all know how Tejas got inducted. IAF never wanted it and kept changing their requirement. Atlast, billions of dollars in R&D would've been in jeopardy had Manohar sir not shoved it into their throat.

I still believe that GE F414 is underpowered and unless we have a 120+kN thrust engine with MTBO/TTL close to that of GE engines, MK2 should be halted and ORCA/TEDBF should be pursued. Cause it is this IAF itself that will cite 100 reasons as to why MK2 is not a "worthy product".
 

MonaLazy

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Dude...easy. What I meant was even Gripen isn't a worthy medium role fighter as it's presented. Compare a Gripen to F-16. US and China both aren't fools. One refrains from selling higher thrust engine(which is required for higher power generation to support more TRTM AESA having better detection range or a higher powered EW and jamming suite). Other uses it on more than 500 J10s. Now I know J10 is a slouchy bulky fighter...but to put such confidence in a faulty poor performance engine like AL31 should be madness, right??
To say that we are ahead of China in avaiation dept will also be wrong just because of their project completion speed and unethical but successful copy pasting of latest tech(don't support this at all).
..& your point being?? How is Gripen, F-16, US, China, tech denials relevant to Mk2?

Abd don't even talk about IAF. We all know how Tejas got inducted. IAF never wanted it and kept changing their requirement.
Utter bull crap!


"The ASR was approved with everybody involved in 1985 and there were two concessions given in 1989- No other change has ever been made"

DRDO overpromised and underdelivered for a very long time- until the program turned the corner a few years ago.

Atlast, billions of dollars in R&D would've been in jeopardy had Manohar sir not shoved it into their throat.
Some harsh words those! More like gently nudged IAF to see reason.

1638873917246.png



I still believe that GE F414 is underpowered and unless we have a 120+kN thrust engine with MTBO/TTL close to that of GE engines, MK2 should be halted and ORCA/TEDBF should be pursued. Cause it is this IAF itself that will cite 100 reasons as to why MK2 is not a "worthy product".
F414 represents the cutting edge of jet engines worldwide. Let's leave what IAF and IN want up to them.
 

ersakthivel

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Its simply amazing to see , so much misinformation being peddled in this threas abt, "IAF never wanting tejas , its just like gripen etc,,"

Without even knowing the theater of IAF operations,,,,,

Unlike Russia and USAF which ha to fly a few hundred Kms to meet the enemy or strike area , IAF fighters from most forward airbases enter their business area just after take off,

SO a substantial percentage of IAF air sorties in war time fall well within the combat range and capabilities of tejas mk1 and tejas mk2,

Thats why even in MMRCA contract IAF insisted that it doesnt matter if the fighter is single engined or twin as long as ASQR as met.

And close to 50 percent of IAF Airsorties will be CAP, air defence of our eastern and northern borders and tactical strikes in support of front line troops, which are well within Tejas mk1 and mk2 range,

other 50 percent deep strikes will be done by SU 30mki and rafale types.

Tejas (even in mk1)has the highest score in precision ground strike in gagansakthi exercise, its small size and low RCS with higher tracking range ASEA radar is a huge plus in CAP & air defence missions,

Even USAF is mulling to design a 4.5 th gen non stealth fighter to repalce high number of its 4th gen fighters that too after F35 induction



IAF is already a top heavy force with 300 odd rafales and Su 30mki, which hv huge operational cost and upgradation cost( 50 more MKIs order seems to be entering negotiations)

you cant wear out these heavy fighters , with 1000s of kM RANGE , in routine CAP, recon or close air support missions , whether in war or peace,

SO Tejas mk2 has a niche to fill in IAF, and will only be the second swing role fighter in IAF to house an AESA radar , fully internal EW suite, and integrated with a wide variety of stores of Russian ,western, french israeli origin , both missiles and laser guide bombs, and various PGMs.

It will be more than a perfect candidate fr replacing all mirage 2000s, mig29s, jaguars, migs rom 21 to 27.

And tejas mk2 is the only bet fr IAF to reach their sanctioned strength within the budget civilians provide it fr.

remeber the oldsaying, "No matter how good a fighter , it cant be at two places at the same time," So having a fleet of cutting edge , economical single engined fighter fleet is a pressing need fr IAF ,

which cant be met by costly imported few in number MNC fighters, whether they are single engined or twin engined,,,

with HAL CATS WARRIOR plans, Tejas platforms will evolve into missions and capabilities that can only be dreamt by other airforces at such an economical cost



So 300 plus Tejas mk1s and mk2 numbers are essential fr IAF to release its heavy fighters to their intended duty of deep strike, maritime and so many other roles
 
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Spitfire9

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The other point about Mk2 is that if India wants to become an exporter of fighters it has to get on with developing and building fighter aircraft. Mk2 fits the bill - many countries update their F-16 aircraft because they cannot afford to step up to F-35, Rafale, Typhoon and there is no low cost alternative to F-16 available.
How many Mk1A will be exported? Not many - world demand for light fighters is small.
How many Mk2 will be exported? Possibly hundreds.
How many TEDBF will be exported? Probably 0.
How many AMCA will be exported? Definitely 0 in the next 15 years.
So if India does not push on with Mk2, what is India going to export? The more quickly Mk2 progresses, the less reason to buy MRFA. No MRFA means more Mk2 with attendant economies of scale, making it even more attractive to foreign buyers.

Not disconected to Mk2 success will be the success of the Indian missile sector.
 

Whitecollar

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The other point about Mk2 is that if India wants to become an exporter of fighters it has to get on with developing and building fighter aircraft. Mk2 fits the bill - many countries update their F-16 aircraft because they cannot afford to step up to F-35, Rafale, Typhoon and there is no low cost alternative to F-16 available.
How many Mk1A will be exported? Not many - world demand for light fighters is small.
How many Mk2 will be exported? Possibly hundreds.
How many TEDBF will be exported? Probably 0.
How many AMCA will be exported? Definitely 0 in the next 15 years.
So if India does not push on with Mk2, what is India going to export? The more quickly Mk2 progresses, the less reason to buy MRFA. No MRFA means more Mk2 with attendant economies of scale, making it even more attractive to foreign buyers.

Not disconected to Mk2 success will be the success of the Indian missile sector.
How many MK2s will be exported? Dude...there is no MK2 serving anywhere as on today is it? Forget about export for a while. We need to fulfil our squardron strength first. Let the MK2s come to service first(which probably is 2029-30 onwards).

The other dude on top says GE F414 is the cutting edge of Aero Engines...then what is Pratt Whitney F135 or Izdeliye 30?


My gripe with the MK2 is only that it needs more capable higher thrust engine. THATS FUKIN IT.

Regarding Export:
You know why a cheap junk like JF 17 sells so much? Because of dirt cheap price tag and the country it sells to are either mostly under developed or under influence of China. That too was first inducted in significant numbers with PorkAF.
SAAB has been selling something similar to what we aspire to sell in future. So rather learn from SAAB's market condition. Think about that first dude.
 

Spitfire9

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My gripe with the MK2 is only that it needs more capable higher thrust engine. THATS FUKIN IT.
I agree. 110kN would be enough, wouldn't it? I wonder how much a certified foreign/Indian designed 110kN engine would cost to build in India.

Regarding Export:
SAAB has been selling something similar to what we aspire to sell in future. So rather learn from SAAB's market condition. Think about that first dude.
Worth thinking about but F-16 is in a different league to Gripen C. Export sales of light fighters JF-17/Gripen C/FA-50 number <100, I think. So demand is very small compared to demand for MWF like F-16. I think that Mk2 can tap into the MWF market. Of course, if a fighter version of T-7 comes, that could change the sales prospects for Mk2 dramatically.
 

MonaLazy

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How many MK2s will be exported? Dude...there is no MK2 serving anywhere as on today is it?
Any MII MRFA Is also similarly vaporware! We are merely indulging in some innocent crystal ball gazing.

what is Pratt Whitney F135 or Izdeliye 30?
Who will give you the F-135 for installation in a homegrown fighter? Even as a black box? F-135 is unobtanium, it is derived from F-119 of F-22. Similarly, the Izdeliye 30 production engine does not exist yet.

Besides, are you merely comparing paper specs of dry and wet thrust with no regard to dimensions?? F-135 is 5.59m and Izdeliye 30 is similarly massive at ~4.9m.

Why did another stealth fighter, KF-21 make the same mistake by opting for F414 instead of F-135?

An 88kN wet GTX 37UB was first fired wayyy back in the 70s.. then why are we struggling with Kaveri?

1638886951366.png




1638886824089.png


We need a ~4m engine for Mk2 & AMCA otherwise add more stages for more thrust with a consequent increase in length is an easy strategy. But we need 110kN in 4m length of engine- that's the challenge. The GE404/414 is a very conservative upgrade over previous GE engines. The "vaunted" F-135 is a leap and with a leap there are challenges:

1638890550375.png


1638890582226.png


Does not make it a bad engine- there are challenges and they are being fixed. We should similarly keep pushing Kaveri to reach it's true potential.

 

Heat

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The mind boggles at the power of vested interests in India. It seems that 'Team India' does not exist. Too many of the wrong people at all levels and nothing is done to change things. Heck, I'm more of an Indian nationalist than people in positions of influence in India - at least I argue for things I see as being in India's interest!
BJP is closest to Team India here. Although many here will disagree. Tejas lives because they funded it's TD initially and then forced IAF to induct it in decent numbers.
 

Super Flanker

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Americans? And Technology Transfer? Never heard of that. This Harkirpal Singh is a "Dalla". Imao. We should never buy F21! Just Go for Additional Rafale. I support buying Additional Rafale in my opinion. Never buy This F-16 which has been rebranded as some F-21 Aircraft. We should buy Tejas Mk2 inplace of This Single Engine F-21. We need twin Engine Fighters like Rafale under MMRCA. No need to buy Single Engine Fighters like the F-21. Our Tejas mk1a and Upcoming Tejas mk2 will fullfil that Requirement of Ours. That's all I have to say.
 

Super Flanker

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Sorry guys for debating about using AL31FP for MK2. This video and chinky comments inside now proves even PLAAF has been desling with same AL31FP engine reliability issue. Where our media openly potrays it, theirs hide almost all facts!
Buddy It's obvious that they too Have Problems with Russian engines. Our Media openly Accepts but Chinki Communist party media doesn't accept it because it will be a bad Thing for the People of Chinki to know. Yeh hai favk
 

Arpuster

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Trololo

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very good according to indian standards, but if it was curved it would have provided even better immersion.

:thumbsup:
No cockpit LAD is curved AFAIK. F35s gives a curved impression because of camera angle. I could be wrong though. Others should opine. But anyway, the GripenE, F21, F18 Blk3, etc all have flat panels.
 

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