ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

IndianHawk

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F-35's titanium bulkhead is one-piece near-net forged on a 50,000 ton ALCOA. F-22's titanium bulkhead is similarly done and is 4 meters wide and 1.7 meters high. India doesn't have that luxury of a heavy press program or an aerospace industry constantly requiring large forgings so we have to make do with what we have. What we have is a 10,000 ton press built by French Albert and Duval and operated in a JV with Indian Aequs Aerospace in Belgaum:-

View attachment 121668

With this machine, we can make the bulkhead in two/three parts and fasten them together. That results in weight penalties, but we got no choice unless Government of India decides to blow the equivalent of the entire budget of the AMCA's Design Phase on a new 65,000 ton monster similar to the one Albert and Duval built in France. Technically, if we wanted to, we could do it.


BTW, I just noticed:-

View attachment 121589
(Source: https://midhani-india.in/WordPress-content/uploads/2018/11/Annual Report (FY 2020-21).pdf )

Forget the AMCA forging on the right, look at the forging they made for Gaganyaan. Look at its size: 1.5m X 2m. (Compare that to F-22 bulkhead which is 1.7mX4m). Granted its just a slab right now, but it does look feasible that we can make a bulkhead in maybe even two pieces and fasten them together. Now get this: We built that not in the 10,000 ton press pictured above but in the 6000 ton press pictured below:-




If this smaller 6,000 ton Danieli Breda press at Midhani proves insufficient for some larger part of the bulkhead in the future, they can still go to the larger 10,000 ton press.
AMCA program has dee pockets. Larger press could very well be build .
A lot of funding in these national programs flow to build multipurpose capacity for future.

AMCA and every other jet after that may require such a press.
 

Okabe Rintarou

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AMCA program has dee pockets. Larger press could very well be build .
A lot of funding in these national programs flow to build multipurpose capacity for future.

AMCA and every other jet after that may require such a press.
But they should have started to do it by now if they wanted to. Redesigning the airframe to take advantage of a new press created 5 years from now would lead to cost and time overruns. You're right, we'll need large presses for almost every major aerospace program we intend to undertake. Large transport aircraft, airliners, bombers, future fighters, etc all require this.

EDIT: This is a good article about the American Heavy Press Program that literally created the jet age. India needs this if it wants in on the big boys club of aerospace engineering.
 
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Blank

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With Certainty, LCA MK 2 Aircraft Is Slated To Enter Production By 2027 And AMCA By 2035--HAL CMD R. Madhavan

Manish K. Jha- You recently said GE-made F414 engines will be manufactured in India for the upcoming LCA Mk2 programme. India has not been able to secure such ToTs to be able to initiate modern jet engines despite many promises and MoUs with international partners. That was also the case with the Rafale offset arrangement. What are the bottlenecks? Is it not a top most priority that should be addressed by top leaders under a national mission?

R. Madhavan-
The LCA MK2 is a Medium Weight Fighter (MWF) aircraft to be powered by GE F414 engines, a fully modular engine of 95KN thrust. During the engine selection for LCA Mk2 programme, GE has proposed ToT of around 60 per cent in a phased manner for manufacturing GE 414 engines in India. However, ToT proposals have business and strategic intent and generally technologically / commercially critical parts are restricted by the OEM (original equipment manufacturers). Also ToT is generally only for manufacturing technology for the agreed parts in the country.

To ensure self-reliance of the country in the critical engine technology, we need to develop capability for design and development of higher thrust engines which is currently available only with a select few companies in the world. As a step towards engine capability development HAL is working on two aero engine programmes currently, which will be suitable for small business jets and ALH class helicopters respectively. However, considering the development costs, higher risks and very long gestation periods, these aero engine development programmes, including higher thrust engine development, needs to be taken up as national programmes involving all the stakeholders like HAL, DRDO labs, academia etc.

There are some activities towards this direction, even though some concrete steps are yet to firm up. Considering the upcoming programmes like Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF), Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), Indian Multirole Helicopter (IMRH) etc. there is definitely a huge market for these class of engines.
Manish K. Jha- With so many strategic projects under the belt and Rs 1 lakh crore purchase order basket, do you feel the need for a broader ecosystem of private aerospace compa[1]nies sharing the space on similar advanced and strategic projects like the AMCA? You also have a plan for the 114 MRFA. Are you perhaps juggling too many platforms?

R. Madhavan-
See, it’s not juggling through, because see, we need a certain set of aircraft. And that includes, first, a single engine light aircraft, then a twin engine one. Then there is a naval require[1]ment of a twin engine one, then there is a stealth one, okay? Now stealth is not going to be the bulk of your (order). Bulk mostly depends on the single engine or the twin engine 4+ or 4++ generation aircraft for rough activity. So, it is a bulk of your forces that you are taking. Since we didn’t have this till now, LCA was the first entry from the Indian Standard point of view. We need to cover up all the gaps. So you need to have at least four projects. That is, improved version of LCA, with better agility and better maneuverability, higher road carrying capacity and better range than the LCA. That’s Mark 2. After that, you need to develop one for the navy. Then after that the AMCA comes in. The one that is not taken is the twin engine 4++, not the stealth one. The difference is that if you go for stealth technology there are certain performance parameters and it’s also very costly because of all these new things involved. So, to avoid these two parameters, betterment and ability, the economic 4++ two engine is required. So that is one more platform that should be looked at now. (ORCA?)
 

fire starter

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With Certainty, LCA MK 2 Aircraft Is Slated To Enter Production By 2027 And AMCA By 2035--HAL CMD R. Madhavan
So no heavy combat helicopter. 😔
 

Maharaj skandgupta

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2035 AMCA will enter production is what should’ve bothered you Kuffar :angry:
It dosent bother me ,I was a very smol kid who loved to play with kittens when lca first took off , by the time. AMCA. Enters production , I will have my own kids who would play with kittens
 
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IndianHawk

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With Certainty, LCA MK 2 Aircraft Is Slated To Enter Production By 2027 And AMCA By 2035--HAL CMD R. Madhavan
AMCA by 2035 means 90+ rafales will come.
 

Brood Father

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With Certainty, LCA MK 2 Aircraft Is Slated To Enter Production By 2027 And AMCA By 2035--HAL CMD R. Madhavan
This looks more realistic and feasible timelines.

However going by recent statement of our UNAF chief he is looking to induct AMCA by 2030 which do not look possible as of now ..So he might be making a case for SU 75 ..
 

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From the article in businessworld.in:
"So you need to have at least four projects. That is, improved version of LCA, with better agility and better maneuverability, higher road carrying capacity and better range than the LCA. That’s Mark 2. After that, you need to develop one for the navy. Then after that the AMCA comes in. The one that is not taken is the twin engine 4++, not the stealth one. The difference is that if you go for stealth technology there are certain performance parameters and it’s also very costly because of all these new things involved. So, to avoid these two parameters, betterment and ability, the economic 4++ two engine is required. So that is one more platform that should be looked at now."

It sounds like he is pushing for ORCA. Could TEDBF be 'de-navalised' into ORCA? If there was a high degree of commonality in parts between them, that would reduce production and operational costs through economy of scale.

 

Brood Father

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From the article in businessworld.in:
"So you need to have at least four projects. That is, improved version of LCA, with better agility and better maneuverability, higher road carrying capacity and better range than the LCA. That’s Mark 2. After that, you need to develop one for the navy. Then after that the AMCA comes in. The one that is not taken is the twin engine 4++, not the stealth one. The difference is that if you go for stealth technology there are certain performance parameters and it’s also very costly because of all these new things involved. So, to avoid these two parameters, betterment and ability, the economic 4++ two engine is required. So that is one more platform that should be looked at now."

It sounds like he is pushing for ORCA. Could TEDBF be 'de-navalised' into ORCA? If there was a high degree of commonality in parts between them, that would reduce production and operational costs through economy of scale.

It can be but I don't think so we need that for next 20-30 years
If IAF manages to get 90 Rafales then we will have 2 twin engine platform (MKI and Rafales) in service for 2-3 decades and one AMCA in pipeline . What we don't have is single engine platform in good numbers until MK2 comes in.

So ORCA is nowhere to be accomodated unless we increase the sqd strength significantly
 

THESIS THORON

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It can be but I don't think so we need that for next 20-30 years
If IAF manages to get 90 Rafales then we will have 2 twin engine platform (MKI and Rafales) in service for 2-3 decades and one AMCA in pipeline . What we don't have is single engine platform in good numbers until MK2 comes in.

So ORCA is nowhere to be accomodated unless we increase the sqd strength significantly
imo sqd strength will inc bec by 2035 third front will come up (bd), and by that time we will be a bigger economy.
 

Marliii

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Don't wanna say it but it looks like this paki jhatu is a fortune teller
Let the porkys fix a design first.and dont copy green toilet flag on TFX or any other design then go full on like the iranian qaher 313 and make RC version of it and sell it PAF
 

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