ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

Spitfire9

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What option does HAL has to start production of MWF before they complete full development testing, say around 2024-2025.

I think they should have the confidence to test the major parameters like top speed, max AOA, str etc on early(1st or 2nd) prototypes in 1-2 year from rollout in 2022 (unlike lca which attempted these parameters during the last leg of foc testing). So they can achieve ioc and make sure no major changes required to the airframe later on. And start production run simultaneously carry out development testing for foc. I am not suggesting something as extreme as concurrency like in f-35.

I say this because if MWF delivery start from 2025-2026, there will be less of a reason to order 114 mrca(or whatever its called now) anf IAF can make do with a second batch of 36 Rafale order. If AMCA is not available when mig-29 and jaguar retires we can order a third batch of 36 more Rafales.

The point of all this is keeping twin engine fighters IAF inventory low because these fighters are OPEX intensive.

IAF for the same budget can get more fighter aircraft which is necessary as they transition into theatre command structure
Where would MWF be produced? I read here:
that HAL fighter production capacity will be 16 from 2022/2023. It mentions that HAL plans to have a capacity to produce 8 fighters at Nashik from 2025/2026. So, capacity to produce 16 Mk1A a year + 8 Mk1A/MWF a year.

It sounds like at best 8 MWF could be produced each year until Mk1A production ends. Who knows when that will be (start date/ramp up/actual production rate/exports all uncertain)?

If India wants IAF to fly Indian fighters I think that GOI needs to order MWF as soon as possible. Preferably a large order of 100+ so HAL can enjoy some economy of scale when pricing the product and has time to organise production. Otherwise GOI will need to buy a load of MMRCA aircraft from wherever.

People have mentioned on many occasions the danger of increasing capacity then leaving it idle after a number of years. Well, even if a production plant cost $500 million, so what?

My guess:
Deal for 100 foreign medium fighters - $12-15 billion
Deal for 100 MWF - $7-9 billion + $500 million for a production plant

Even if the plant was never used again after 100 MWF were produced, $billions would have been saved going down the MWF route rather than the MMRCA route.
 

pipebomb

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I was rather making two limited points that

i) Is there an option for GOI to expedite MWF delivery to IAF. To me it does.

ii) By controlling the numbers of twin engine fighter in IAF's inventory they can bring down their opex and hence afford more airframes which they need anyway.

Now i was not suggesting that they setup a new production facility for MWF but rather place a large order upfront before any prototypes are built. So that HAL can increase rate of production per year and eliminate any gap in transition between mk1a & MWF.
 

Spitfire9

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I was rather making two limited points that

i) Is there an option for GOI to expedite MWF delivery to IAF. To me it does.

ii) By controlling the numbers of twin engine fighter in IAF's inventory they can bring down their opex and hence afford more airframes which they need anyway.

Now i was not suggesting that they setup a new production facility for MWF but rather place a large order upfront before any prototypes are built. So that HAL can increase rate of production per year and eliminate any gap in transition between mk1a & MWF.
Yes, I think GOI should negotiate prices with HAL for, say, 150/175/200/225. If price is acceptable, I think GOI should take the plunge and place a large order for MWF.

Can HAL increase the production rate without building another plant? If so, great, but I have not heard it mentioned before.
 

Haldilal

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Our Armed forces are in competition with each other for stupidity. It's like if one arm did a stupidity other automatically take it as a challenge and replicate it in even more bigger way. Few peculiarities as following....
IAF constantly ignoring large fleet of MKi and making them obsolete while continuously pursuing imaginary 114 jets. Sometime these 114 jets fall in medium category and sometimes into light. Despite of 36 Rafale these 114 numbers remaining the same.
Following the IAF, IN came into action and demanding 3rd AC for no reason ( because India doesn't have offensive posture against anyone) Submarine are vital as they provide credible second strike capability which is needed right now.
Seeing her sister organization, IA swing into action and buying only 6 Apache while ignoring LCH. Now days Army is only rewriting specifications of Armata tank as a next requirement.

AMCA has enough money, infact none of our project facing cash crunch but problem is HAL want to upgrade Su-30mki in house which is IAF is apposing in favour of continue kickback money flow.

If someone can remember HAL Tejas had in-flight refueling prob back in 2009. But seeing this IAF immediately change the goal post asked for Cobham and this led to maximum delay in Tejas FOC.
Ya'll Nibbiars if the MWF are capable of the MMRCA category and can be delivered on Time as stated by the bleh nibba the development time would be less. Why push for the MMRCA.
 

vishnugupt

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Ya'll Nibbiars if the MWF are capable of the MMRCA category and can be delivered on Time as stated by the bleh nibba the development time would be less. Why push for the MMRCA.
Infact at this point of time, ordering more Rafale is useless. Either IAF had to ordered more LCA (FOC )or Ordered more Rafale back in 2016 but both opportunity has been lost.
People here suggest " quickly order 36 more Rafale" but truth is no matter how quickly you order, next 36 will come only around 2027-28 and by that time LCA -Mk2 will also ready.
 

Spitfire9

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Infact at this point of time, ordering more Rafale is useless. Either IAF had to ordered more LCA (FOC )or Ordered more Rafale back in 2016 but both opportunity has been lost.
People here suggest " quickly order 36 more Rafale" but truth is no matter how quickly you order, next 36 will come only around 2027-28 and by that time LCA -Mk2 will also ready.
Could retirement of the remaining MiG-21's be geared to when MWF deliveries are under way? I get the impression that ordering another squadron or two of Mk1A to keep fighter numbers up would not be considered.
I guess that any MMRCA deal also would not result in many deliveries before MWF deliveries could start. If investment in plant would be needed to make MMRCA in India, why not invest in plant for MWF instead?
 

vishnugupt

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Could retirement of the remaining MiG-21's be geared to when MWF deliveries are under way? I get the impression that ordering another squadron or two of Mk1A to keep fighter numbers up would not be considered.
I guess that any MMRCA deal also would not result in many deliveries before MWF deliveries could start. If investment in plant would be needed to make MMRCA in India, why not invest in plant for MWF instead?
Mig-21 are scheduled to retired by 2025 and MWF will not be ready by that time. Building manufacturing plant for mmrca will be more disastrous and time consuming.
IAF has fixed it fate and by 2025 the only job IAF will left is crying. They neither will get LCA nor will get Rafale.
 

pipebomb

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Mig-21 are scheduled to retired by 2025 and MWF will not be ready by that time. Building manufacturing plant for mmrca will be more disastrous and time consuming.
IAF has fixed it fate and by 2025 the only job IAF will left is crying. They neither will get LCA nor will get Rafale.
No need for new production plant, they just have to make sure that there is no gap between mk1a and MWF. They need not complete FOC for MWF production to start.

Ofcourse GOI have place large order of MWF upfront for that before any prototypes are built. This will help HAL to increase mk1a production from 16 p.a to 24 p.a .
 

Covfefe

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Hi, could anyone help me with this query?-

Tejas Mk2 is going to be a single jet medium weight fighter. From what the specs sheet is available, its T/W ratio in the clean configuration is going to be less than 1. Won't it be underpowered for the payload it is designed for?
 

rohit b3

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Hi, could anyone help me with this query?-

Tejas Mk2 is going to be a single jet medium weight fighter. From what the specs sheet is available, its T/W ratio in the clean configuration is going to be less than 1. Won't it be underpowered for the payload it is designed for?
All Single Engine Light Combat Aircrafts in the World have a TW ratio of less than 1 in clean configeration(100% fuel). Be it the current Tejas..or Gripen..or FA-50..or JF17. Infact if im not wrong, the best TW ratio of all Light combat fighters is of Tejas mk1. With a gross weight of 21,600 lbs and max thrust of 20,200 lbs..we get a TW ratio of around 0.94.
And to answer your question, better the TW ratio, better its for the fighter...but a TW ratio of less than 1 isnt called "Underpowered" .
GE414 givees 22,000 lbf of thrust, and if anyone knows the expected clean configuration(100%) fuel of Tejas mk2, we can calculate the TW ratio as well.
 

Picard

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Hi, could anyone help me with this query?-

Tejas Mk2 is going to be a single jet medium weight fighter. From what the specs sheet is available, its T/W ratio in the clean configuration is going to be less than 1. Won't it be underpowered for the payload it is designed for?
It will not. Basic Gripen has T/W below 1, as does F-16 IIRC... yet it outturns many twin-engined fighters. What matters in air combat is wing loading and thrust-to-drag ratio. Thrust-to-weight ratio matters for vertical maneuvers and strike aircraft, but Tejas was primarily conceived as a point-defense interceptor IIRC, so low TWR is not that much of an issue by itself.
 

Spitfire9

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It will not. Basic Gripen has T/W below 1, as does F-16 IIRC... yet it outturns many twin-engined fighters. What matters in air combat is wing loading and thrust-to-drag ratio. Thrust-to-weight ratio matters for vertical maneuvers and strike aircraft, but Tejas was primarily conceived as a point-defense interceptor IIRC, so low TWR is not that much of an issue by itself.
6 squadrons of Mk1/Mk1A and 6-10? squadrons of MWF all to be tasked as interceptors? I though MWF was supposed to take over from Jaguars and M2K in the fullness of time?
 

Picard

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6 squadrons of Mk1/Mk1A and 6-10? squadrons of MWF all to be tasked as interceptors? I though MWF was supposed to take over from Jaguars and M2K in the fullness of time?
Primarily a point-defense interceptor. Does not mean it cannot take on other roles. Gripen was concieved as a point-defense interceptor, yet it evolved into a capable multirole fighter. But the main striker will be Rafale and other heavier aircraft.
 

MirageBlue

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Hi, could anyone help me with this query?-

Tejas Mk2 is going to be a single jet medium weight fighter. From what the specs sheet is available, its T/W ratio in the clean configuration is going to be less than 1. Won't it be underpowered for the payload it is designed for?
Do you consider the Mirage-2000 to be underpowered? or the Gripen E/F?

And do you believe that fighters carry their max payload for each and every mission?
 

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