ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

Tupac slayer

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With FBW in place and better engines things are much better with 4th gen jet . And Mirage were extensively upgraded and can be used till 35-40 if spare parts are available till then.

Older airframes gets damaged more need extensive maintenance each time they fly and become a nightmare for operation.

For e.g. Jaguar aircraft is still an excellent design, new frames too, specially for maritime petrol etc . But due to spare shortage engine issue which require expensive upgrade IAF might retire most of them soon.
Atleast we can replace the Jaguar Aircraft with Tejas Mark II, even if Program delayed, does this spare parts theory apply for Pakistan Mirage III or V aircraft also? their production line also ended? will PAF will also face this maintenance problem? curious to know
 

Steven Rogers

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Sir, do you think 4th Generation fighters will also become Obsolete used beyond a certain point of time, I think both Mig-29 and Mirage 2000 were upgraded, I read from news papers the cost of a upgrade of a mirage 2000 is equal to that of new MKI. Please clarify my doubts. Even if the Jets were upgraded cant its life frame extended by 25 years or so?
It will be obsolete once it's airframe has lived up the flying life. Current 4th gen air frames provide enough flexibility to add the required equipments. Upgrading a new frame with structural changes is expensive and you can't avoid that,Mig29 due to the lack of MMRCA went on from becoming an air superiority with a multirole platform in the UPG standards....
 

Steven Rogers

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Yeah 6 years are a bit of a disappointment ..for mere 83 we have to wait 6 years ..
Now have we factored in exports ...what happens if we got an export order for say 50 ..How we plan to manage that?
Also do MK2 needs to wait till our MK1A production line is free or else we might to wait till 2035 for all MK2 is delivered.
6 years delivery program will like we have in Rafale,first year will see few aircrafts being inducted while the last year will see the maximum of the aircrafts being inducted....
 

Flying Dagger

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Atleast we can replace the Jaguar Aircraft with Tejas Mark II, even if Program delayed, does this spare parts theory apply for Pakistan Mirage III or V aircraft also? their production line also ended? will PAF will also face this maintenance problem? curious to know
Yes they do that's why they are buying older aircrafts and cannibalise them for spare parts etc. At the same time they were smart enough to replace them with JF-17 .

But contrary to russian built jets french jets are much better to maintain.

The service life of a Russian jet is generally 4000 flight hrs while of European built 6-8 and an American one can be extended to 10- 12000 flying hrs.

Even Taiwan is facing issue with high maintenance cost of their Mirage 2k line in comparison to their F-16s. F-16s have a robust supply chain of spares with a great economy of scale.

Tejas mk2 can essentially replace all fighter jets like Jaguar Migs Mirage of current Indian inventory in terms of capability.
 

Tupac slayer

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Yes they do that's why they are buying older aircrafts and cannibalise them for spare parts etc. At the same time they were smart enough to replace them with JF-17 .
Agreed to all other points, Pakistan plans to procure only 188 JF-17 Thunder still they have around 130 F-7 Aircraft and 130 Mirage Aircraft to replace. As of now they have 120 JF-17 Jets. Even if they replace 68 JF-17 thunder Jets against all 130 F-7 aircraft, they still have mirages to replace. It will be suicide for Pakistan to replace entire airforce inventory with JF-17 Thunder.
 

Chandragupt Maurya

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I don’t know how IAF is called obsolete with barely 100 mig21 bison and and 126 jaguars when the Chinese operate 388 outdated j7 which is a copy of mig21 and Pakistanis operate mirages and j7 even their F16s are outdated except 18 (they lost 2 recently one in crash and another on 27th February) Indian airforce by that logic operates much less obsolete aircrafts than China or Pakistan
 

airtel

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I don’t know how IAF is called obsolete with barely 100 mig21 bison and and 126 jaguars when the Chinese operate 388 outdated j7 which is a copy of mig21 and Pakistanis operate mirages and j7 even their F16s are outdated except 18 (they lost 2 recently one in crash and another on 27th February) Indian airforce by that logic operates much less obsolete aircrafts than China or Pakistan

Capabilities of an airforces should be judged by number of its useful aircrafts and not by it's obsolete aircrafts .
 

Tupac slayer

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Capabilities of an airforces should be judged by number of its useful aircrafts and not by it's obsolete aircrafts .
Agreed totally, but what happened, If we had Rafale or any Mig-35 in Srinagar, Most of the F-16 which formed the strike package on 27th would not have returned back. Modern aircraft is a must when we conduct high tempo of regular operations. Are the chinese conducting operations regularly? Remember one of our pilot was held as POW because his aircraft was shot down, If abhinandhan had an rafale or Mig-35 he would not be in Pakistan.
 
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ezsasa

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Remember one of our pilot was held as POW because his aircraft was shot down, If abhinandhan had an rafale or Mig-35 he would not be in Pakistan.
even if you have rafale in the inventory, the role of interceptor aircrafts doesn't go away.
 

Flying Dagger

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Agreed to all other points, Pakistan plans to procure only 188 JF-17 Thunder still they have around 130 F-7 Aircraft and 130 Mirage Aircraft to replace. As of now they have 120 JF-17 Jets. Even if they replace 68 JF-17 thunder Jets against all 130 F-7 aircraft, they still have mirages to replace. It will be suicide for Pakistan to replace entire airforce inventory with JF-17 Thunder.
They will try to buy older F-16s aircraft from diff sources. Plus you must understand they don't have a budget like IAF and they are planning best acc to their budget.

In any case JF-17 isn't such a trash as many portray in terms of aircraft design. What it lacks in terms of avionics and a better engine can be met if pakistan gets money in future.

Right now their strategy is simple F-16s as the tip of their spear and JF-17s to do all other roles.
 

Tupac slayer

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They will try to buy older F-16s aircraft from diff sources. Plus you must understand they don't have a budget like IAF and they are planning best acc to their budget.

In any case JF-17 isn't such a trash as many portray in terms of aircraft design. What it lacks in terms of avionics and a better engine can be met if pakistan gets money in future.

Right now their strategy is simple F-16s as the tip of their spear and JF-17s to do all other roles.
I never under estimated JF-17 capabilities, they were trying to integrate, italian and french avionics to make it more lethal, I believe it is a 4th generation aircraft, but I believe it is not the solution that Pakistan needs, i mean to do all the roles.
 

Flying Dagger

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even if you have rafale in the inventory, the role of interceptor aircrafts doesn't go away.
Actually it depends on how many Rafale you have, the level of threat and operational cost.

Once all Mirages were kept in Gwalior but now they are used as interceptor.

The only criteria for a jet to be able to intercept is how quickly it can be in the air and how fast it can track down and engage the enemy jet in a cost effective manner.

In 27 Feb like situation we might had Rafale patrolling along with Mirage or su if we had it not Mig 21
 
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Flying Dagger

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I never under estimated JF-17 capabilities, they were trying to integrate, italian and french avionics to make it more lethal, I believe it is a 4th generation aircraft, but I believe it is not the solution that Pakistan needs, i mean to do all the roles.
They don't have money for that now and due to mmrca many were reluctant to engage them. It is better than having nothing considering the price they paid for them.
 

Chandragupt Maurya

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Capabilities of an airforces should be judged by number of its useful aircrafts and not by it's obsolete aircrafts .
How many useful aircrafts PAF has ? 16 F16 block 52 rest of the others are obsolete and 120 JF17 which even Chinese don’t use and How many useful aircrafts China has except Su30 and SU35 ?
 

Tupac slayer

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How many useful aircrafts PAF has ? 16 F16 block 52 rest of the others are obsolete and 120 JF17 which even Chinese don’t use and How many useful aircrafts China has except Su30 and SU35 ?
PAF has 18 Block 52, One they lost in 27th was Jordanian one, I think recent one might be an Old Pakistan F-16 which was upgraded or Jordanian one, I am not sure
 

Akula

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Agreed totally, but what happened, If we had Rafale or any Mig-35 in Srinagar, Most of the F-16 which formed the strike package on 27th would not have returned back. Modern aircraft is a must when we conduct high tempo of regular operations. Are the chinese conducting operations regularly? Remember one of our pilot was held as POW because his aircraft was shot down, If abhinandhan had an rafale or Mig-35 he would not be in Pakistan.
Even if we had a Barak-8 MRSAM placed in Srinagar, PAF wouldn't have dared to enter Indian airspace.
 

Tupac slayer

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Even if we had a Barak-8 MRSAM placed in Srinagar, PAF wouldn't have dared to enter Indian airspace.
Sorry buddy I am very frustrated about our neighbors who taunt us for our long pending procurement process, they taunt us we will always fly Mig-21.
 

airtel

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Even if we had a Barak-8 MRSAM placed in Srinagar, PAF wouldn't have dared to enter Indian airspace.

We have spider Sam , akash and many other capable Sam missiles deployed in that region but paki airforce didn't cross the Loc at that time and they used glide bombs from a distance .

Agreed totally, but what happened, If we had Rafale or any Mig-35 in Srinagar, Most of the F-16 which formed the strike package on 27th would not have returned back. Modern aircraft is a must when we conduct high tempo of regular operations. Are the chinese conducting operations regularly? Remember one of our pilot was held as POW because his aircraft was shot down, If abhinandhan had an rafale or Mig-35 he would not be in Pakistan.

We had better aircrafts at that time ( mig 29 , sukhoi 30 mki , miraaj 2000 ) but still mig 21 was used , why do you think that brand New rafales would be used in such kind of skirmish ?

They returned back just because they didn't cross the LoC or crossed it for few seconds only and returned before our proper response .

How many useful aircrafts PAF has ? 16 F16 block 52 rest of the others are obsolete and 120 JF17 which even Chinese don’t use and How many useful aircrafts China has except Su30 and SU35 ?
They have good numbers of J10 , J11 , j16 and other sukhoi aircrafts.

Screenshot_2020-08-15-20-58-00-46.jpg
 
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Chandragupt Maurya

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I have one question if 45 years old upgraded F16 is considered modern then how is 35 years old upgraded mig21 obsolete? First Flight of F16 was in 1974 and mig21 in 1955 so mig21 is definitely obsolete but F16 is not modern either
 

airtel

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I have one question if 45 years old upgraded F16 is considered modern then how is 35 years old upgraded mig21 obsolete? First Flight of F16 was in 1974 and mig21 in 1955 so mig21 is definitely obsolete but F16 is not modern either
.
Because manufacturing of mig21 stopped in 1985 ; it's airframes are obsolete , it's engine don't have enough power and it can not carry bigger radars and modern avonics .
On the other hand F16 is still under production and they have changed everything , from design , engines , radars avonics everything is changed .
F16 block 10 is 45 years old but F16 block 60/70 are not .
This is cockpit of F16 block 70 .


Cockpit of Indian Mig 21



F16 AESA radar .


Mig 21 nose is too small for big radars .
So its range can not be increased significantly



 
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