ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[Suryavanshi]

A bulk order of 83 Tejas mk1A is about to be placed would HAL be able to produce 24 Tejas mk1A/year

16 per annum is their capacity.

 

[Tupac slayer]

16 per annum is their capacity.

Even if HAL Produce 16 Per year, It would be Ideal, by 2024, We can replace all Mig-21 by the year 2024 on one to one basis.

 

[Tupac slayer]

The question is what time frame? We started manufacturing Su30 early 2000's and it's like 20 years to fulfil the order. The fault is not with Hal. But rather with the govt for ordering piecemeal fighters. If I m right it was 40+140+100+12. The requirement 270 was a given. If the order was placed in a single one, hal could have manufacturd 24/ year. But the bulk order never came.

The same will happen to Mk2. It will be capped to max 16/ year and I don't believe for a moment IAF or the govt will order 201 Ac in one go. Production has to start from 2028 considering mk1A order will take place for 5 years. So that will be like minimum of 12-14 damn years. Considering 20 Ac per squadron for Tejas, we would have 16 sq of various versions of Tejas in 2040 at best. Wow.

So till 2030 we won't have increase in squadron strength. All new Tejas ones will only replace Migs and old Jags. (Atleast one or two Jags sq are only 20+ years old). The Jags upgrade plan has also faltered or failed. That's the reason IAF is pushing MMRCA tender for immediate increase in sq strength numbers.

So by 2040 our strength will look something like 15 Su, 16 Tejas, 2 (+2 Rafale), 1Mig29 (new ones) 2 Amca considering the timeline for its production is 2035. We are at best looking at 35 sq or 37 if 2 more Rafale sq is ordered. The missing piece is mmrca with 6 squadron. Without them there will be an shortage of nearly 120 fighters.

HAL Tejas Aircrafts IOC and FOC Variants and 83 Aircraft Ordered will replace Mig-21 Aircraft in our Inventory. Dassault Rafales and Tejas Mark 2 may replace Jaguar Aircrafts, Mig-27. correct me If I am wrong. The more we induct rafales we are replacing Mig-27 on one to one basis. If Airforce Purchases around 120 Tejas Mark II then we are replacing around Jaguar aircraft one to one basis.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

HAL Tejas Aircrafts IOC and FOC Variants and 83 Aircraft Ordered will replace Mig-21 Aircraft in our Inventory. Dassault Rafales and Tejas Mark 2 may replace Jaguar Aircrafts, Mig-27. correct me If I am wrong. The more we induct rafales we are replacing Mig-27 on one to one basis. If Airforce Purchases around 120 Tejas Mark II then we are replacing around Jaguar aircraft one to one basis.

Yes you are wrong and you need to learn more on sq strength. MiG 27 are already retired. Tejas mk2 has to replace jags and Mig29 and to add squadron strength.

 

[airtel]

16 per annum is their capacity.

A bulk order of 83 Tejas mk1A is about to be placed would HAL be able to produce 24 Tejas mk1A/year

There are 3 production lines of LCA , so minimum 20 aircrafts can be produced annually .

 

[The Maverick]

New to Thread Guys fogive me

IMO

Judging by past performance.
budgeting constraints and idea to spread cost over more years
typical indian mentalty od discuss challenge counter review every move
This is how i see things progessing

Mark1a will not arrive first fighter until 2024 summer there after i see prduction
8
8
10
12
12
16
16


Thats until 2030

Mark 2 will start in 2030

I DO SEE 2nd order for 36 rafale F4 around 2024/ delivery starting 2027

BY 2030
76 rafale = 4
260+ su30mki = 13
120 Tejas mark1a/1 = 6
70 + Mig29upg 4
55 Jaguar darin 3 = 3
45 mirage2000-5 = 2

32 squadrons at best

i see no MMRCA or 5th generation fighter

 

[Lancer]

I remember having an argument with an member who was defending this govt on how the squadron strength of IAF is enough and the 42 sq req was devised in 60's and due to advanced nature of ac's it's not an requirement now.
Another asked so what study was conducted recently by IAF or govt telling the sq strength required for minimum deterrence. He got silent. Some people want to be more loyal to a party than to the country.

Your questions though has important points, not only to Pakistan but to India as well. What are we literally going to do? We have 3+3 squads of Migs and Jags + 3 sqds of MiG 29 which were inducted in 80's and nearing 40+ years. Even now IAF or the govt hasn't come out with comprehensive plan on how to reach 42 squad in what time frame. And that is only required for minimum defence. For offense we need an effective 65 squadron strength which is not going to happen. Again 1 squadron of Su is nearly equal to 2 squad of MiG 21.

The problem with JF17 is it doesn't offer a huge advantage over F7P in range and weight. In avionics and electronics maybe. Moreover paf reduces cost by investing in one platform even if they are ordinary. They can still go for 100 J31 for all we know. And that will be an formidable replacement for around 200 3rd gen Ac.

Their Ac will look like 70+ F16, 150 JF17, 100 J31. They will have 360 ac forming 20 squadron. Migs and Mirages will be kept in reserve though. They always do that.

The Gvt doesn't really need to be defended, because they haven't exactly done anything wrong in respect to fighter squadron strength.

It was Parrikar who cut the Gordian Knot and came up with the LCA MK1A idea to save the Tejas program - from which we are now also talking about developing all these advanced MK2 and MWF/ORCA fighters.

It was Modi who bit the bullet and sealed a deal for 2 quick squadrons of Rafales while the MMRCA deal died a slow death, and he was the one who weathered a cynical, manufactured political storm for it too - by the same party which led us to our current pitiful condition, no less.

The point about old squadron numbers being outdated due to difference in fighter capabilities + force multipliers is true as well, though 40-45 squadrons would still be ideal. Talk of 60+ squadrons is just madness, both financially impractical and shows a similar illogical fixation on numbers to what the Army does - beyond a point, you have to look past numbers and focus on tech based force multipliers.

As for PAF, that's not really anywhere close to our main challenge. Based off of findings during Gagan Shakti, it was already predicted that the PAF wouldn't last long once the entire might of the IAF was unleashed on it with a high tempo of ops - but once S400's arrive most of Pakistan will literally become a No Fly Zone for the PAF. They don't have anything that can match up to the Rafale or even the MKI really, and once we have LCA MK1A's in numbers w/ AESA + the 100KM Astra BVR - our lowest end fighter will be capable of taking on their ~50 odd highest end fighters which are choked for spares.

We can now start turning focus towards China - where again, we currently enjoy a qualitative and quantitative advantage due to China's current limitations in that theater (best fighters deployed in East, no HAS at relevant airbases, performance limitations due to altitude, not enough infra for more than a set # of fighters etc). These advantages probably won't last long, and the Chinese will definitely work to strengthen their capabilities - but then our ADS + fighter capabilities will also only increase from here on out (this is something even Ajai Shukla agrees on).

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

The Gvt doesn't really need to be defended, because they haven't exactly done anything wrong in respect to fighter squadron strength.

It was Parrikar who cut the Gordian Knot and came up with the LCA MK1A idea to save the Tejas program - from which we are now also talking about developing all these advanced MK2 and MWF/ORCA fighters.

It was Modi who bit the bullet and sealed a deal for 2 quick squadrons of Rafales while the MMRCA deal died a slow death, and he was the one who weathered a cynical, manufactured political storm for it too - by the same party which led us to our current pitiful condition, no less.

The point about old squadron numbers being outdated due to difference in fighter capabilities + force multipliers is true as well, though 40-45 squadrons would still be ideal. Talk of 60+ squadrons is just madness, both financially impractical and shows a similar illogical fixation on numbers to what the Army does - beyond a point, you have to look past numbers and focus on tech based force multipliers.

As for PAF, that's not really anywhere close to our main challenge. Based off of findings during Gagan Shakti, it was already predicted that the PAF wouldn't last long once the entire might of the IAF was unleashed on it with a high tempo of ops - but once S400's arrive most of Pakistan will literally become a No Fly Zone for the PAF. They don't have anything that can match up to the Rafale or even the MKI really, and once we have LCA MK1A's in numbers w/ AESA + the 100KM Astra BVR - our lowest end fighter will be capable of taking on their ~50 odd highest end fighters which are choked for spares.

We can now start turning focus towards China - where again, we currently enjoy a qualitative and quantitative advantage due to China's current limitations in that theater (best fighters deployed in East, no HAS at relevant airbases, performance limitations due to altitude, not enough infra for more than a set # of fighters etc). These advantages probably won't last long, and the Chinese will definitely work to strengthen their capabilities - but then our ADS + fighter capabilities will also only increase from here on out (this is something even Ajai Shukla agrees on).

As long as we have access to western weapons China cannot match us qualitatively atleast for a decade given that western countries provide us their top of the line aircrafts and not some 40 years old junk like F16s but we have to develop AMCA with or Without technological assistance from the Big Millitary Industrial Complexes of the world Because No country will give us their Crown Jewels we have to develop it on our own

 

[A chauhan]

If I was govt, I will order 378 mwf in one go coz you need to replace migs, mirages and jaguar,orca 270 ,amca 216(54mk1 and 162 mk2) plus tedbf 216 ,you need not only force multipliers but good platforms
378+270+216 :864 fighters for Air Force ,along with 54 mirages,270 su30mki ,83lca mk1a and 90 Rafale ,not to mention ghatak and predator
Sounds a lot but the above mentioned fighters will be
A) made in India
B) actually enhance our attacking capability

I'd also like to see us develop atleast 2 squads of long range bombers, coz that will actually threaten our hostile adversaries more.

Kuch jyada hi ho gya bro.

 

[vayuu1]

View attachment 55708

Kuch jyada hi ho gya bro.

Dekh Bhai ye planes koi 1,ya 2 saal main to ayenge nhi, target period should be next 17-18 yrs

 

[vayuu1]

Which roughly translates to 48 aircraft's per year till 2040 ,started from 24 and later on increasing the capacity

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

The Gvt doesn't really need to be defended, because they haven't exactly done anything wrong in respect to fighter squadron strength.

It was Parrikar who cut the Gordian Knot and came up with the LCA MK1A idea to save the Tejas program - from which we are now also talking about developing all these advanced MK2 and MWF/ORCA fighters.

It was Modi who bit the bullet and sealed a deal for 2 quick squadrons of Rafales while the MMRCA deal died a slow death, and he was the one who weathered a cynical, manufactured political storm for it too - by the same party which led us to our current pitiful condition, no less.

The point about old squadron numbers being outdated due to difference in fighter capabilities + force multipliers is true as well, though 40-45 squadrons would still be ideal. Talk of 60+ squadrons is just madness, both financially impractical and shows a similar illogical fixation on numbers to what the Army does - beyond a point, you have to look past numbers and focus on tech based force multipliers.

As for PAF, that's not really anywhere close to our main challenge. Based off of findings during Gagan Shakti, it was already predicted that the PAF wouldn't last long once the entire might of the IAF was unleashed on it with a high tempo of ops - but once S400's arrive most of Pakistan will literally become a No Fly Zone for the PAF. They don't have anything that can match up to the Rafale or even the MKI really, and once we have LCA MK1A's in numbers w/ AESA + the 100KM Astra BVR - our lowest end fighter will be capable of taking on their ~50 odd highest end fighters which are choked for spares.

We can now start turning focus towards China - where again, we currently enjoy a qualitative and quantitative advantage due to China's current limitations in that theater (best fighters deployed in East, no HAS at relevant airbases, performance limitations due to altitude, not enough infra for more than a set # of fighters etc). These advantages probably won't last long, and the Chinese will definitely work to strengthen their capabilities - but then our ADS + fighter capabilities will also only increase from here on out (this is something even Ajai Shukla agrees on).

Well. The PM could have even went for 200+ G2G deal with France like how we went for Su30 over 15 years. No one would have bagged an eyelid there too. Local manufacturing is always costly but could have gone forward in the name of security requirements.

The achievement of MP is Tejas Mk1A. While I am not understating it but that's it. India will be left undefended for most of 20's to early 30's. Its quite rich coming from a party which for the first time fought elections in the name of national security. That's a concept still alien to Indian common citizens.

So here we are after 6 years with 5 Rafales. 83mkA deal is being negotiated for 3 years now. I mean imagine 2 govt organisation talking to one another and it takes 3.5 damn years and yet not signed. So yes pls let's not demand the performance of this govt here. We throwed the UPA to get an UPA + cow - corruption. The policy paralysis with respect to Indian defence and it's industry is still there. The less we talk bout economy the better.

As for old squadron numbers being true or untrue, studies are done to determine the number. If that number is not true then what's the new number? The answer is studies are done very much periodically. If the required numbers had gone up, they don't utter a word and maintain at 42. If it had gone down, politicians would have gleefully put out the new numbers to allocate that budget for something else. Even exercise like Gaganshakthi are kinda studies done to determine the number required for effective defence. So the number is 42. Or around 600 fighters. To put things into perspective China simply has 1000+ 4th gen fighters alone not counting the old MiG and Su types.

Army numbers has become an sore point for many cos suddenly the govt doesn't have money and it moans to pay pensions to soldiers who gave their best years away to the country. Army numbers can be reduced but it has to matched with substantiated technology platforms like UAVs, armoured personnel carriers, helis, Transport aircrafts, ATGMs, basic rifles, smart devices, sdr and armor. Guess what? They want to reduce numbers without investing in technology to make their life easier or fighting better. So it's just excuses. China has the capability to scale up the fight pretty quickly. She can build an damn base in less than a week. She also knows once Indian economix might rises, our military spending will rise, making it tough to win an war. She will strike when we are weak and she is sensing an opportunity here.

As regards to our west I am sure they have one or two aces up their sleeves . We cannot underestimate anyone.

 

[Lancer]

Well. The PM could have even went for 200+ G2G deal with France like how we went for Su30 over 15 years. No one would have bagged an eyelid there too. Local manufacturing is always costly but could have gone forward in the name of security requirements.

Go and look at the price. It's easy to make statements like that. Let me one up you in that case, UPA should have gone for 300+ G2G deal instead of waffling for a decade. Argue that

The achievement of MP is Tejas Mk1A. While I am not understating it but that's it. India will be left undefended for most of 20's to early 30's. Its quite rich coming from a party which for the first time fought elections in the name of national security. That's a concept still alien to Indian common citizens.

Weirdly worded, vague, bogus comment.

As for old squadron numbers being true or untrue, studies are done to determine the number. If that number is not true then what's the new number? The answer is studies are done very much periodically. If the required numbers had gone up, they don't utter a word and maintain at 42. If it had gone down, politicians would have gleefully put out the new numbers to allocate that budget for something else. Even exercise like Gaganshakthi are kinda studies done to determine the number required for effective defence. So the number is 42. Or around 600 fighters. To put things into perspective China simply has 1000+ 4th gen fighters alone not counting the old MiG and Su types.

None of this remotely counters what I said. Again, very weirdly worded. You were literally plugging 65 squadrons, get a grip on logic.

Army numbers has become an sore point for many cos suddenly the govt doesn't have money and it moans to pay pensions to soldiers who gave their best years away to the country. Army numbers can be reduced but it has to matched with substantiated technology platforms like UAVs, armoured personnel carriers, helis, Transport aircrafts, ATGMs, basic rifles, smart devices, sdr and armor. Guess what? They want to reduce numbers without investing in technology to make their life easier or fighting better. So it's just excuses. China has the capability to scale up the fight pretty quickly. She can build an damn base in less than a week. She also knows once Indian economix might rises, our military spending will rise, making it tough to win an war. She will strike when we are weak and she is sensing an opportunity here.

Who's responsible for drawing up and arranging purchase lists by priority? The Army has routinely bungled all sorts of procurements, has a known import/corruption problem, and now people are going to complain about tech/hardware purchases as a prerequisite to trimming a bloated and inefficient force?

The Army has a habit of hogging the budget and under-delivering proportional to resources - compare it with the Air Force and Navy who survive on a fraction of the budget but are arguably more effective sword arms for India against both Pak and China. IN has fully embraced indigenization, IAF is also standing with domestic fighter projects, meanwhile the Army refuses to even use a quality, domestic tank and continues importing old T-90's in the hundreds without even having adequate mine plows for them.

As regards to our west I am sure they have one or two aces up their sleeves . We cannot underestimate anyone.

If we're going to look at it that way, then I'm sure we have twice as many aces up our sleeves for both Pak and China. Why underestimate our own strength either?

 

[Shekhar Singh]

New to Thread Guys fogive me

IMO

Judging by past performance.
budgeting constraints and idea to spread cost over more years
typical indian mentalty od discuss challenge counter review every move
This is how i see things progessing

Mark1a will not arrive first fighter until 2024 summer there after i see prduction
8
8
10
12
12
16
16


Thats until 2030

Mark 2 will start in 2030

I DO SEE 2nd order for 36 rafale F4 around 2024/ delivery starting 2027

BY 2030
76 rafale = 4
260+ su30mki = 13
120 Tejas mark1a/1 = 6
70 + Mig29upg 4
55 Jaguar darin 3 = 3
45 mirage2000-5 = 2

32 squadrons at best

i see no MMRCA or 5th generation fighter

Wow, what a great and accurate astrologer you are.

 

[Pulkit]

New to Thread Guys fogive me

IMO

Judging by past performance.
budgeting constraints and idea to spread cost over more years
typical indian mentalty od discuss challenge counter review every move
This is how i see things progessing

Mark1a will not arrive first fighter until 2024 summer there after i see prduction
8
8
10
12
12
16
16


Thats until 2030

Mark 2 will start in 2030

I DO SEE 2nd order for 36 rafale F4 around 2024/ delivery starting 2027

BY 2030
76 rafale = 4
260+ su30mki = 13
120 Tejas mark1a/1 = 6
70 + Mig29upg 4
55 Jaguar darin 3 = 3
45 mirage2000-5 = 2

32 squadrons at best

i see no MMRCA or 5th generation fighter

If you are counting number of squadrons I will request you to count as 16+2 (18) fighter aircraft per squadron.
Personally I do not want 36 additional Rafale, but yes due to numbers crunch we might place an order, I hope we go for an additional 18 instead of 36 only for the sake of inventory and maintenance cost.

Some numbers I hope we will see by 2030.

272 Su 30 Mki (Additional order placed to cover up losses included) 15 Squadrons
54 Rafale 3 squadrons
65 Mig 29 3.5 Squadrons
we have 118 Jaguar by then let's say the numbers are down to 55 3 squadrons
36 Mirages 2 squadron
My major difference is with the next option

Tejas Mk1/1A 123 7 squadrons (Current scenario)
Deal signed this year for 83 Mk1A it will take 8 years at best for delivery means by 2028
Additional orders
Tejas Mk1A 45 2.5 Squadron (Possible)
Tejas Mk2 45 2.5 Squadron (Possible)

Making a total close to 38-39 Squadrons by 2030.
WIth Mk1A I do see an additional order once they start delivering by 2023 and I do believe if not 24 then at least 18 per year they will be able to deliver by 2025.

My expectation with Tejas Mk2 is a little too optimistic but its possible. First flight sources say 2023 let's push it to 2025. Enters production 2027. At 16 aircraft per year they can achieve 45 by 2030, hence used word possible.

If I do not count in Mk2 then also 37+ squadrons will be an improvement.

I also do not see any 5th Gen A/C by then.

 

[fire starter]

as expected.

 

[A chauhan]

as expected.

I think govt should declare incentive of 1 crore ₹ to each scientist involving in a particular project after completion within a certain time period and selection of the product by IAF/IN. e.g. if 200 scientists are assigned in AMCA designing then if they complete the design in a fixed timeline with satisfaction of IAF/IN then the incentive should follow. This will encourage them like nothing. No successful completion within a certain time period, no incentive.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Go and look at the price. It's easy to make statements like that. Let me one up you in that case, UPA should have gone for 300+ G2G deal instead of waffling for a decade. Argue that



Weirdly worded, vague, bogus comment.



None of this remotely counters what I said. Again, very weirdly worded. You were literally plugging 65 squadrons, get a grip on logic.



Who's responsible for drawing up and arranging purchase lists by priority? The Army has routinely bungled all sorts of procurements, has a known import/corruption problem, and now people are going to complain about tech/hardware purchases as a prerequisite to trimming a bloated and inefficient force?

The Army has a habit of hogging the budget and under-delivering proportional to resources - compare it with the Air Force and Navy who survive on a fraction of the budget but are arguably more effective sword arms for India against both Pak and China. IN has fully embraced indigenization, IAF is also standing with domestic fighter projects, meanwhile the Army refuses to even use a quality, domestic tank and continues importing old T-90's in the hundreds without even having adequate mine plows for them.



If we're going to look at it that way, then I'm sure we have twice as many aces up our sleeves for both Pak and China. Why underestimate our own strength either?

That's the reason I said UPA bungled up. You are not th first person I am having this argument with. But that's not reason for NDA to bungle up too. We want fighters, it's costly, yes, so what's the solution? That's why the decision makers are elected to find solutions. There was simply no need for another MMRCA. Just go to discussions with Rafale G2G and be done with. Same is going on with P75I. We could have gone for 6 more scorpene with API. But that's stuck since 2010.

I am not even arguing that IaF needs to have 65 sq numbers. But it's needs to have bare minimum of 42 to defend a two front war. 65 is required if we have to go for an offensive and win a 2 front war. There is a difference. Go get a grip on reading properly first.

People all sorted blamed on numbers cos it affects the budget of armed forces. Guess what? China has stationed 50k soldiers on our Ladakh border and some 150k troops in this theatre and we are sending reserves from Hyderabad. That numbers and experience is the only advantage we have over the Chinese right now. Without increase in technology and platforms it would be garb stupidity to reduce force. A reason Army is fighting tooth and nail against it. As a compromise they are now thinking 3 year program for around 100k soldiers to reduce pension costs.

Army have it's issues. But that doesn't stop the govt from fulfilling the basic needs of the infantry. Namely the protective gears and weapon system first. While frontline troops are equipped, not everyone is for now. Ak203 is still under discussion. MoD is sitting on weapon platforms for Rudra, LCH(orders and weapons) Transport Ac replacement, FICV, APC, artillery where they have already decided what they want but no funds are order are placed. That's the complaint I have. MoD is definitely under the govt and not service org.

 

[Lancer]

That's the reason I said UPA bungled up. You are not th first person I am having this argument with. But that's not reason for NDA to bungle up too. We want fighters, it's costly, yes, so what's the solution? That's why the decision makers are elected to find solutions. There was simply no need for another MMRCA. Just go to discussions with Rafale G2G and be done with. Same is going on with P75I. We could have gone for 6 more scorpene with API. But that's stuck since 2010.

FFS. You're one of those typical people who whine loudly without understanding everything. "There was no need for another MMRCA" - Yea, No Shit - But the Gvt had little choice due to the massive political storm created by motivated actors over the Rafale. "Caesar's Wife has to be above suspicion."

Still, just like the Gvt took the initiative of buying 36 Rafales, there may yet be a similar follow on order. Learn to give credit where it's due rather than crying about why 36 and not 200 - when fighter jets themselves are being procured for the first time in several years.

I am not even arguing that IaF needs to have 65 sq numbers. But it's needs to have bare minimum of 42 to defend a two front war. 65 is required if we have to go for an offensive and win a 2 front war. There is a difference. Go get a grip on reading properly first.

You're clueless on this, stop spouting off like some sort of authority. Between the vast improvements in fighter aircraft, sustained high tempo/high intensity ops (Gagan Shakti), Force multipliers (AWACS, Tankers etc), and vastly improved/advanced ADS like (eventually) the S400, Akash, MRSAM, Spyder etc - there's absolutely no need for the type of squadron numbers you're talking about. Neither is 45 a "bare minimum" for defense, nor is 65 remotely needed to go "on offense" in a 2 front situation. You're quaking so hard at the thought of the PAF and PLAAF's numbers without understanding context, that I feel the tremors all the way over here.

But the way you've been rambling about the Army's numbers, I'm not shocked you don't understand that militaries can't just keep procuring/expanding themselves into bankruptcy.

40-45 squadrons where even the lowest end fighter is an LCA MK1A, and the ADS systems + initial attack pretty much ground the PAF in 2-3 days - shifting almost all focus to China - is an excellent scenario both for defense and attack in a 1 OR 2 front situation.

People all sorted blamed on numbers cos it affects the budget of armed forces. Guess what? China has stationed 50k soldiers on our Ladakh border and some 150k troops in this theatre and we are sending reserves from Hyderabad. That numbers and experience is the only advantage we have over the Chinese right now. Without increase in technology and platforms it would be garb stupidity to reduce force. A reason Army is fighting tooth and nail against it. As a compromise they are now thinking 3 year program for around 100k soldiers to reduce pension costs.

Go and read about manpower ratios in mountain combat. And yes, now that you've amassed such a massive, bloated, unaffordable Army - hold a gun to your (or rather the nation's) head and demand even more hardware procurement (which requires MONEY) before even trimming the Army size

Way to dodge the point on Army's absolute bungling of procurements as well.

Army have it's issues. But that doesn't stop the govt from fulfilling the basic needs of the infantry. Namely the protective gears and weapon system first. While frontline troops are equipped, not everyone is for now. Ak203 is still under discussion. MoD is sitting on weapon platforms for Rudra, LCH(orders and weapons) Transport Ac replacement, FICV, APC, artillery where they have already decided what they want but no funds are order are placed. That's the complaint I have. MoD is definitely under the govt and not service org.

Great. More whining. It was THIS Government that got new high quality Assault Rifles for frontline Infantry, Snipers, Machine Guns etc for troops. It's THIS Government that's trying to iron out a deal with Russians to mass produce a better rifle for all infantry (and doing it in India as well - so people like you have one less point to cry about), as well as future orders of new Carbines.

It's THIS Government that finally fucking gave our guys bullet proof vests and actual helmets for crying out loud, instead of just sending them out to die.

FICV and APC aren't even relevant here right now, those are future projects which aren't pressing issues.

The LCH and Rudra were held up because the manufacturer of Helina ATGM still hasn't been able to deliver - but in view of the crisis situation - like multiple times before, the Gvt has gone ahead with emergency purchases, including Spike missiles for the helicopters.

But No, nothing's ever enough. Whine, Whine, Whine and keep taking jabs at BJP and Modi about national security and defense as if they haven't been vastly better than Congress - especially the decade of UPA.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

Ginormous shoes to fill in. Especially in the EW side, and data fusion side. Dassault literally spent billions and billions on the EW , data fusion part alone. I still feel the rafale is second only to the F35,’maybe’.

But, if Namibiar and Thakur are that certain, then they must know something we don’t. Maybe DRDO or HAL is already developing these suites and they’re funding it heavily. If that’s the case, there should be state of the art sensor suites , developed and ready to go, from either HAL, DRDO or private players. It would be very beneficial to have private players provide the EW and fusion suites. That’s how you promote R&D on the technology side. That’s the prime reason companies like Raytheon and Northrop Grumman play a vital role as tier 1 suppliers to the OEM’s.

Private players also end up teaming up with IISC’s and IIT’s to fund research projects which in turn can be utilized for
Civilian purposes. It’s a trickle down effect.