ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[Emperor Kalki]

China has accepted that J20 is a Fourth generation aircraft the acceptance came after questions raised by Mr BS Dhanoa on its cannards and the ability to supercruise an article in Global Times mentioned J20 as a fourth generation Fighter

Its just the difference in the chinese classification to US or western one, 4th gen in chinese classification essentially means 5th gen in western....and similarly 4.5 becomes 3.5 in their system....

 

[Mindrapper]

China has accepted that J20 is a Fourth generation aircraft the acceptance came after questions raised by Mr BS Dhanoa on its cannards and the ability to supercruise an article in Global Times mentioned J20 as a fourth generation Fighter

The Chinese have created their own system used to describe their own aircraft. By western classification J-20 is still a 5th generation aircraft.

1. 1950s to 1960s: J-5, J-6
2. 1970s to 1980s: J-7, J-8
3. 1990s to 2000s: J-10, J-11
4. 2010s: J-20

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Pakistan Air force has more obsolete aircraft when compared to Indian Airforce, Even If they some Induct J-31, that would be an replacement to some of their older mirages, rather than additional capability, Pakistan Airforce was always eager to have an 400 to 500 Combat Aircraft to deter IAF or deny IAF complete Air superiority . How many Aircrafts does Pakistan plan to Induct? what will be the cost? The cost of a J-31, A fifth generation aircraft may be equal to that of a Dassault Rafale? I dont think Chinese can provide J-31 as free lunch, In my opinion in future Pakistan Airforce may reduce the number of Aircraft's at least by 100 Nos and instead invest in Air Defence Systems, Pakistan needs to replace around some 250 Aircrafts by 2030. 120 F-7 and 130 Mirages. Out of these 60 F-17 Aircraft will be replaced by JF-17 Thunders. 60 F-7 and 130 Mirages still have to be replaced. but not sure how they would be replaced? Pakistan can also buy some F-16 from turkey or any other country that operates F-16, but given US support for F-16 that is an highly unlikely scenario. Aviation experts can clarify below points.

1) Can Pakistan Air force fly Mirages through ROSE upgrades till 2040? I did read in a Defence Article you can only upgrade an aircraft only upto a certain period of time, after that the aircraft has to be replaced? Has Pakistan Mirage aircraft's reached that point?

I remember having an argument with an member who was defending this govt on how the squadron strength of IAF is enough and the 42 sq req was devised in 60's and due to advanced nature of ac's it's not an requirement now.
Another asked so what study was conducted recently by IAF or govt telling the sq strength required for minimum deterrence. He got silent. Some people want to be more loyal to a party than to the country.

Your questions though has important points, not only to Pakistan but to India as well. What are we literally going to do? We have 3+3 squads of Migs and Jags + 3 sqds of MiG 29 which were inducted in 80's and nearing 40+ years. Even now IAF or the govt hasn't come out with comprehensive plan on how to reach 42 squad in what time frame. And that is only required for minimum defence. For offense we need an effective 65 squadron strength which is not going to happen. Again 1 squadron of Su is nearly equal to 2 squad of MiG 21.

The problem with JF17 is it doesn't offer a huge advantage over F7P in range and weight. In avionics and electronics maybe. Moreover paf reduces cost by investing in one platform even if they are ordinary. They can still go for 100 J31 for all we know. And that will be an formidable replacement for around 200 3rd gen Ac.

Their Ac will look like 70+ F16, 150 JF17, 100 J31. They will have 360 ac forming 20 squadron. Migs and Mirages will be kept in reserve though. They always do that.

 

[vayuu1]

On Any day i would bet on Tejas Mark2 rather than AMCA, Manohar Parrikar asked ADA & DRDO to go slow on AMCA and divert all resoruces to Tejas Aircraft, such kind of action is required now also, Priority should be for Tejas Mark 1 and Mark II, all other fancy things can wait for a while, If the Airforce want modern fighter Aircraft to replace Jaguar Aircraft on one to one basis, they will have HAL Tejas Mark 2, nothing else, If Pakistan Inducts J-31 we may induct SU-57 or FGFA Aircraft but on a favorable deal like TOT and local production

I don't think amca is slow either considering the progress we have made in ew, radar, irst weaponry etc, if it was slow we wouldn't have accepted the f414 engine for amca it means it is utmost priority of govt to fast track this, on the other hand I believe both amca and orca will be merged under single platform and it will be aorca(advanced omnirole combat aircraft)

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

Tejas MK2 itself which will take first flight in 2022 will incorporate technology of 5th generation AMCA it will also act as a testing bed for the technologies which has to be used in AMCA that’s why Mr Nambiar said Tejas MK2 will be superior to rafales

 

[patriots]

Tejas MK2 itself which will take first flight in 2022 will incorporate technology of 5th generation AMCA it will also act as a testing bed for the technologies which has to be used in AMCA that’s why Mr Nambiar said Tejas MK2 will be superior to rafales

Tejas mk2 will have better electionics..
But if our next generation weapons will be developed .
Rafale is Betty because it comes with all sensor and weapon package s...

 

[Tupac slayer]

.

The problem with JF17 is it doesn't offer a huge advantage over F7P in range and weight. In avionics and electronics maybe. Moreover paf reduces cost by investing in one platform even if they are ordinary. They can still go for 100 J31 for all we know. And that will be an formidable replacement for around 200 3rd gen Ac.

Their Ac will look like 70+ F16, 150 JF17, 100 J31. They will have 360 ac forming 20 squadron. Migs and Mirages will be kept in reserve though. They always do that.

Agreed to all your points except highlighted one, By the time Pakistan Inducts J-31, Pakistan will not be having 70 F-16 due to US Freeze of security assistance, Unless Pakistan buys used F-16 from Turkey or Venezuela.

 

[Akula]

Agreed to all your points except highlighted one, By the time Pakistan Inducts J-31, Pakistan will not be having 70 F-16 due to US Freeze of security assistance, Unless Pakistan buys used F-16 from Turkey or Venezuela.

There were rumours that Pakistan may buy old F-16'S from a US company. But as you have mentioned maybe chances are not.

 

[Illusive]

Air battle now is not just having aircraft in air, it can be done with drones as well. I am sure Air Force can see the changing nature of air battle with swarm drones, electronic warfare operating alongside sophisticated 4.5/5 gen aircraft.

The squadron strength comes to play for longer wars, when attrition starts affecting our battle strategies. The objective should be to have a decisive edge in terms of technology against your enemy even if the squadron strength is low for now.

 

[Tupac slayer]

I remember having an argument with an member who was defending this govt on how the squadron strength of IAF is enough and the 42 sq req was devised in 60's and due to advanced nature of ac's it's not an requirement now.
Another asked so what study was conducted recently by IAF or govt telling the sq strength required for minimum deterrence. He got silent. Some people want to be more loyal to a party than to the country.

Your questions though has important points, not only to Pakistan but to India as well. What are we literally going to do? We have 3+3 squads of Migs and Jags + 3 sqds of MiG 29 which were inducted in 80's and nearing 40+ years. Even now IAF or the govt hasn't come out with comprehensive plan on how to reach 42 squad in what time frame. And that is only required for minimum defence. For offense we need an effective 65 squadron strength which is not going to happen. Again 1 squadron of Su is nearly equal to 2 squad of MiG 21.

The problem with JF17 is it doesn't offer a huge advantage over F7P in range and weight. In avionics and electronics maybe. Moreover paf reduces cost by investing in one platform even if they are ordinary. They can still go for 100 J31 for all we know. And that will be an formidable replacement for around 200 3rd gen Ac.

Their Ac will look like 70+ F16, 150 JF17, 100 J31. They will have 360 ac forming 20 squadron. Migs and Mirages will be kept in reserve though. They always do that.

If IAF procures 12 Squadrons of HAL Tejas Mark 2 provided the Program has been fast tracked, then we can go beyond 42 squadrons but my fear is that IAF should not change the goal posts frequently, as it happened in the past. Rafales had to be stopped at maximum 80 Nos, If Government encourages IAF by ordering more and more extra rafales. It would be end of Tejas Mark II.

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

So LCA Tejas MK1/1A is replacing mig21 and MK2 (MWF) and ORCA TEDBF are Rafale class will replace Mirages and Mig29 and AMCA will replace Su30mki

 

[Mindrapper]

So LCA Tejas MK1/1A is replacing mig21 and MK2 (MWF) and ORCA TEDBF are Rafale class will replace Mirages and Mig29 and AMCA will replace Su30mki

AMCA will not replace Su 30 MKI but Jaguar. Su 30 MKI will be in service for at least next 30 years.

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

Everything is going fine except the American engines I wanted to see indigenous engines or sourced from France even if costly because US is a backstabber highly unpredictable country

 

[Shekhar Singh]

Everything is going fine except the American engines I wanted to see indigenous engines or sourced from France even if costly because US is a backstabber highly unpredictable country

Which engine from France?

 

[Suhaan]

Which engine from France?

Hot core tech,he is talking about JV and IP remaining with India

 

[Shekhar Singh]

Hot core tech,he is talking about JV and IP remaining with India

I think DRDO is working with rolls royce for this.

 

[Akula]

I think DRDO is working with rolls royce for this.

JV between DRDO and Rolls Royce is for 110KN engine(if it is real). Whereas, DRDO and Safran were working on Kaveri.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

If IAF procures 12 Squadrons of HAL Tejas Mark 2 provided the Program has been fast tracked, then we can go beyond 42 squadrons but my fear is that IAF should not change the goal posts frequently, as it happened in the past. Rafales had to be stopped at maximum 80 Nos, If Government encourages IAF by ordering more and more extra rafales. It would be end of Tejas Mark II.

The question is what time frame? We started manufacturing Su30 early 2000's and it's like 20 years to fulfil the order. The fault is not with Hal. But rather with the govt for ordering piecemeal fighters. If I m right it was 40+140+100+12. The requirement 270 was a given. If the order was placed in a single one, hal could have manufacturd 24/ year. But the bulk order never came.

The same will happen to Mk2. It will be capped to max 16/ year and I don't believe for a moment IAF or the govt will order 201 Ac in one go. Production has to start from 2028 considering mk1A order will take place for 5 years. So that will be like minimum of 12-14 damn years. Considering 20 Ac per squadron for Tejas, we would have 16 sq of various versions of Tejas in 2040 at best. Wow.

So till 2030 we won't have increase in squadron strength. All new Tejas ones will only replace Migs and old Jags. (Atleast one or two Jags sq are only 20+ years old). The Jags upgrade plan has also faltered or failed. That's the reason IAF is pushing MMRCA tender for immediate increase in sq strength numbers.

So by 2040 our strength will look something like 15 Su, 16 Tejas, 2 (+2 Rafale), 1Mig29 (new ones) 2 Amca considering the timeline for its production is 2035. We are at best looking at 35 sq or 37 if 2 more Rafale sq is ordered. The missing piece is mmrca with 6 squadron. Without them there will be an shortage of nearly 120 fighters.

 

[vayuu1]

The question is what time frame? We started manufacturing Su30 early 2000's and it's like 20 years to fulfil the order. The fault is not with Hal. But rather with the govt for ordering piecemeal fighters. If I m right it was 40+140+100+12. The requirement 270 was a given. If the order was placed in a single one, hal could have manufacturd 24/ year. But the bulk order never came.

The same will happen to Mk2. It will be capped to max 16/ year and I don't believe for a moment IAF or the govt will order 201 Ac in one go. Production has to start from 2028 considering mk1A order will take place for 5 years. So that will be like minimum of 12-14 damn years. Considering 20 Ac per squadron for Tejas, we would have 16 sq of various versions of Tejas in 2040 at best. Wow.

So till 2030 we won't have increase in squadron strength. All new Tejas ones will only replace Migs and old Jags. (Atleast one or two Jags sq are only 20+ years old). The Jags upgrade plan has also faltered or failed. That's the reason IAF is pushing MMRCA tender for immediate increase in sq strength numbers.

So by 2040 our strength will look something like 15 Su, 16 Tejas, 2 (+2 Rafale), 1Mig29 (new ones) 2 Amca considering the timeline for its production is 2035. We are at best looking at 35 sq or 37 if 2 more Rafale sq is ordered. The missing piece is mmrca with 6 squadron. Without them there will be an shortage of nearly 120 fighters.

If I was govt, I will order 378 mwf in one go coz you need to replace migs, mirages and jaguar,orca 270 ,amca 216(54mk1 and 162 mk2) plus tedbf 216 ,you need not only force multipliers but good platforms
378+270+216 :864 fighters for Air Force ,along with 54 mirages,270 su30mki ,83lca mk1a and 90 Rafale ,not to mention ghatak and predator
Sounds a lot but the above mentioned fighters will be
A) made in India
B) actually enhance our attacking capability

I'd also like to see us develop atleast 2 squads of long range bombers, coz that will actually threaten our hostile adversaries more.

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

A bulk order of 83 Tejas mk1A is about to be placed would HAL be able to produce 24 Tejas mk1A/year