ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[MrPresident]

No offence to anyone but we are so happy with ONLY the rendering of a proposed aircraft. We are even comparing the MTOW of an existing planes with the PROPOSED ONES which might be in service by what 2040?

This is nothing but khaayali pulao, this sorry state of affairs is so -pathetic that we have accepted this as norm. I am not blaming any one particular its passing the buck, everyone has someone else to blame. We still dont have a fuckin FOC LCA MK1 in service.HAL is happy producing teasers for general public. This reminds me of Yes bank where the management keep teasing with new funds which never comes.

I am sure everybody has their excuses, till when will we keep supporting the excuses. Efforts put in to develop doesnt matter when there is nothing to show as results. Experience sure if you really use the experience. DRDO keep telling development of LCA will help in fastening the development of of Mark 2 and AMCA but all I hear is some random dates ranging from 2021 till 2030. No one seems to have a freakin idea of something called road map and deadlines.

Now how many aircraft currently are been worked on by DRDO and ADA. One esteemed forum mate (Not being sarcastic) was pointing out how many aircrafts does Lockheed, Boeing and United Aircraft Corporation work on. But do we know how big is the workforce or the scientists who are working on it and i am not even going into budget?

TBDEF
ORCA
LCA MK2
AMCA
SARAS

We have 5k scientists in DRDO (ADA is a part of DRDO), out of which how many dedicated to work on this? Not to forget we have all sort of missiles, RADARS, Engines, Tanks, guided, un-guided bombs, food processing as well to add to it. So now lets check what and all Lockheed works on Aircrafts, missiles some space related equipment. I dont see them working on any other thing, why not? because they have a proper road map and they have a clear goal.

I was having a discussion on Kaveri engine a while back, people were claiming all sort of things. Even started rumors of equipping Su-30 with kaveri-M88 derivative, 3 yrs down the lane what do we have to show? nothing. Now we have a condition of of ingenious engine for AMCA? do we have K10 as prototype? whats the thrust? we know that there is a project but nothing else. why does all the effort of testing doesnt end up having results is there any root cause analysis? no idea.

Our DRDO has its hands in all the cookie jars with man power of 5k. I have no hopes on DRDO or HAL or MOD babus. Not the least our IAF who are like people addicted to swiggy and zomato order when you feel like, budget ? credit card hain na. No disrespect to IAF or doubting their valour and service to the nation but it is what it is.

I would be happy if I am proven wrong. But have no hopes, World will move on to next gen and we will be happy with previous gen aircrafts.

Sorry for the rant, this is been inside for a longtime.

 

[IndianHawk]

DRDO keep telling development of LCA will help in fastening the development of of Mark 2 and AMCA but all I hear is some random dates ranging from 2021 till 2030. No one seems to have a freakin idea of something called road map and deadlines.

There are concrete plans for mwf and amca now in place. Mwf design is freezes and metal cutting for first prototype might start as soon as next month. 4 production ready prototypes will be built and tested between 2021/22 to 2025/26 when it will begin serial production at 24@month rate.

Amca is in final design stage and first prototype shall fly by 2025 and by 2029 MK1 of amca with existing f414 shall enter serial production. While MK2 with indigenous engine will come later.

Tebdf is new program but it will share engine with mwf/amca , most internals will be copied from mwf ( radar , ew suite , sensors ) also weaponary will be common thus reducing a lot of effort.

We have been very sloppy but now we are getting our shit together. That they are even proposing tedbf while developing mwf and amca shows the confidence they have gained now with Modi govt and iaf/ navy chiefs firmly behind them.

 

[Suryavanshi]

No offence to anyone but we are so happy with ONLY the rendering of a proposed aircraft. We are even comparing the MTOW of an existing planes with the PROPOSED ONES which might be in service by what 2040?

This is nothing but khaayali pulao, this sorry state of affairs is so -pathetic that we have accepted this as norm. I am not blaming any one particular its passing the buck, everyone has someone else to blame. We still dont have a fuckin FOC LCA MK1 in service.HAL is happy producing teasers for general public. This reminds me of Yes bank where the management keep teasing with new funds which never comes.

I am sure everybody has their excuses, till when will we keep supporting the excuses. Efforts put in to develop doesnt matter when there is nothing to show as results. Experience sure if you really use the experience. DRDO keep telling development of LCA will help in fastening the development of of Mark 2 and AMCA but all I hear is some random dates ranging from 2021 till 2030. No one seems to have a freakin idea of something called road map and deadlines.

Now how many aircraft currently are been worked on by DRDO and ADA. One esteemed forum mate (Not being sarcastic) was pointing out how many aircrafts does Lockheed, Boeing and United Aircraft Corporation work on. But do we know how big is the workforce or the scientists who are working on it and i am not even going into budget?

TBDEF
ORCA
LCA MK2
AMCA
SARAS

We have 5k scientists in DRDO (ADA is a part of DRDO), out of which how many dedicated to work on this? Not to forget we have all sort of missiles, RADARS, Engines, Tanks, guided, un-guided bombs, food processing as well to add to it. So now lets check what and all Lockheed works on Aircrafts, missiles some space related equipment. I dont see them working on any other thing, why not? because they have a proper road map and they have a clear goal.

I was having a discussion on Kaveri engine a while back, people were claiming all sort of things. Even started rumors of equipping Su-30 with kaveri-M88 derivative, 3 yrs down the lane what do we have to show? nothing. Now we have a condition of of ingenious engine for AMCA? do we have K10 as prototype? whats the thrust? we know that there is a project but nothing else. why does all the effort of testing doesnt end up having results is there any root cause analysis? no idea.

Our DRDO has its hands in all the cookie jars with man power of 5k. I have no hopes on DRDO or HAL or MOD babus. Not the least our IAF who are like people addicted to swiggy and zomato order when you feel like, budget ? credit card hain na.

I would be happy if I am proven wrong. But have no hopes, World will move on to next gen and we will be happy with previous gen aircrafts.

Sorry for the rant, this is been inside for a longtime.

I understand your concern but comparing India of 2004 to 2014 to that of current one is not fair at all.
Something very significant has changed, I'll give u a hint.

Vs

Vs

 

[Bhurki]

No offence to anyone but we are so happy with ONLY the rendering of a proposed aircraft. We are even comparing the MTOW of an existing planes with the PROPOSED ONES which might be in service by what 2040?

This is nothing but khaayali pulao, this sorry state of affairs is so -pathetic that we have accepted this as norm. I am not blaming any one particular its passing the buck, everyone has someone else to blame. We still dont have a fuckin FOC LCA MK1 in service.HAL is happy producing teasers for general public. This reminds me of Yes bank where the management keep teasing with new funds which never comes.

I am sure everybody has their excuses, till when will we keep supporting the excuses. Efforts put in to develop doesnt matter when there is nothing to show as results. Experience sure if you really use the experience. DRDO keep telling development of LCA will help in fastening the development of of Mark 2 and AMCA but all I hear is some random dates ranging from 2021 till 2030. No one seems to have a freakin idea of something called road map and deadlines.

Now how many aircraft currently are been worked on by DRDO and ADA. One esteemed forum mate (Not being sarcastic) was pointing out how many aircrafts does Lockheed, Boeing and United Aircraft Corporation work on. But do we know how big is the workforce or the scientists who are working on it and i am not even going into budget?

TBDEF
ORCA
LCA MK2
AMCA
SARAS

We have 5k scientists in DRDO (ADA is a part of DRDO), out of which how many dedicated to work on this? Not to forget we have all sort of missiles, RADARS, Engines, Tanks, guided, un-guided bombs, food processing as well to add to it. So now lets check what and all Lockheed works on Aircrafts, missiles some space related equipment. I dont see them working on any other thing, why not? because they have a proper road map and they have a clear goal.

I was having a discussion on Kaveri engine a while back, people were claiming all sort of things. Even started rumors of equipping Su-30 with kaveri-M88 derivative, 3 yrs down the lane what do we have to show? nothing. Now we have a condition of of ingenious engine for AMCA? do we have K10 as prototype? whats the thrust? we know that there is a project but nothing else. why does all the effort of testing doesnt end up having results is there any root cause analysis? no idea.

Our DRDO has its hands in all the cookie jars with man power of 5k. I have no hopes on DRDO or HAL or MOD babus. Not the least our IAF who are like people addicted to swiggy and zomato order when you feel like, budget ? credit card hain na. No disrespect to IAF or doubting their valour and service to the nation but it is what it is.

I would be happy if I am proven wrong. But have no hopes, World will move on to next gen and we will be happy with previous gen aircrafts.

Sorry for the rant, this is been inside for a longtime.

Don't burst the bubbles that make people happy.

 

[IndianHawk]

Don't burst the bubbles that make people happy.

It is happy people who drive change and innovation. Pacimism is not a strategy .

 

[IndianHawk]

Paylaod 9 tones close to rafale that has 9.5 tones and F 16 that has 7.5.

F 15 highest with 10.4 ton

Given that 2 f414 will give it more thrust than rafale payload is very realistic.

 

[MrPresident]

Lot has changed but we still have shitty production rate, HAL still busy going on strike. They say production for MK1A will start 24 months after signing the deal, do we have even one MK1A config flying? so will they directly roll off the aircraft production hanger to IAF base? even completely tested and matured product as wont roll off like that.

I still cant believe we are flying a Jaguar and upgrading it as well wasting money and manpower and this antique was retired 15 YEARS ago in western forces. I will let the number speak for itself.

You can paint a pig as a tiger but underneath its still a fuckin pig.

MTOW of Jaguar: 15,700 kg (34,613 lb) with external stores which could have reduced over the period of time.
MTOW of LCA : 13,300 kg (29,321 lb)

 

[MrPresident]

Lot has changed but we still have shitty production rate, HAL still busy going on strike. They say production for MK1A will start 24 months after signing the deal, do we have even one MK1A config flying? so will they directly roll off the aircraft production hanger to IAF base? even completely tested and matured product as wont roll off like that.

I still cant believe we are flying a Jaguar and upgrading it as well wasting money and manpower and this antique was retired 15 YEARS ago in western forces. I will let the number speak for itself.

You can paint a pig as a tiger but underneath its still a fuckin pig.

MTOW of Jaguar: 15,700 kg (34,613 lb) with external stores which could have reduced over the period of time.
MTOW of LCA : 13,300 kg (29,321 lb)

 

[Shashank Nayak]

Lot has changed but we still have shitty production rate, HAL still busy going on strike. They say production for MK1A will start 24 months after signing the deal, do we have even one MK1A config flying? so will they directly roll off the aircraft production hanger to IAF base? even completely tested and matured product as wont roll off like that.

I still cant believe we are flying a Jaguar and upgrading it as well wasting money and manpower and this antique was retired 15 YEARS ago in western forces. I will let the number speak for itself.

You can paint a pig as a tiger but underneath its still a fuckin pig.

MTOW of Jaguar: 15,700 kg (34,613 lb) with external stores which could have reduced over the period of time.
MTOW of LCA : 13,300 kg (29,321 lb)

Western air forces apart from USA are small airforces riding on Uncle Sam's coat tails.. so they can afford keeping only the cutting edge fighters... Royal airforce has only 10 fighter squadrons.. 9 typhoon and 1 F-35.. even china operates hundreds of J-7 still...

 

[Bleh]

F 15 highest with 10.4 ton

That thing was designed with payload in mind but at cost of internal fuel, compared to Su-27.

But ORCA/TEDBF will have more thrust than Rafale (for which it'd need more internal fuel) & similar wing-area, so comparable external load is not unexpected.

 

[MrPresident]

Western air forces apart from USA are small airforces riding on Uncle Sam's coat tails.. so they can afford keeping only the cutting edge fighters... Royal airforce has only 10 fighter squadrons.. 9 typhoon and 1 F-35.. even china operates hundreds of J-7 still...

But those are indigenous isnt it? they are not paying others for the upgrades? They exported so many of them so they actually would have made money out of it.

My point is why waste money on upgrading the pig instead at least direct the money towards development of LCA.

As of pessimism? you do analysis on facts and not on dreams. Keep the emotions out of it and do your own analysis mate u ll have the picture in front of u.

Again I will be so happy to be proven wrong but i would rather stay on ground.

 

[Suryavanshi]

But ORCA/TEDBF will have more thrust than Rafale (for which it'd need more internal fuel) & similar wing-area, so comparable external load is not unexpected.

Oh I'm not complaining or anything

I'll just be happy if we can see any of those jets by 2025 to 2030.
Once a prototype has been made the successive versions will improve a lot of specs.
For instance F 16 went from block A to block D and Gripen went from A to E, each time improving something.

Ek bar ane do phir khila pila kar ladke ko tagda bana denge. :hippo:

 

[MrPresident]

There are concrete plans for mwf and amca now in place. Mwf design is freezes and metal cutting for first prototype might start as soon as next month. 4 production ready prototypes will be built and tested between 2021/22 to 2025/26 when it will begin serial production at 24@month rate.

Amca is in final design stage and first prototype shall fly by 2025 and by 2029 MK1 of amca with existing f414 shall enter serial production. While MK2 with indigenous engine will come later.

Tebdf is new program but it will share engine with mwf/amca , most internals will be copied from mwf ( radar , ew suite , sensors ) also weaponry will be common thus reducing a lot of effort.

We have been very sloppy but now we are getting our shit together. That they are even proposing tedbf while developing mwf and amca shows the confidence they have gained now with Modi govt and iaf/ navy chiefs firmly behind them.

Ok.. but production is still to be done by HAL isnt it? so the first MK1A will roll of by Mid 2022 so we have an order of 83 lets say to start with they will produce 16/year so it will take around 5 years to complete order but Mk2 will be ready by 2025/2026 so they will produce 24 MK2 + 16 Mk1A for 2 years? that a GIANT leap of faith. Not to forget we still dont have FOC MK1 and 8 trainers.

All these considering the fact DRDO and ADA deliver on their promise. Btw dont forget the testing of MK1A, it is bound to take time.

 

[lcafanboy]

Ek bar ane do phir khila pila kar ladke ko tagda bana denge.

Aur agar Ladke ka Baap (DRDO ADA) aur Maa (HAL) impotent Banjh (lazy, nikamme, chai biscuit types from reservation quota chaaps) Ho to?...

Na Baap time se Kuch Karegaa aur Na Maa time se delivery Karegi....

 

[Suryavanshi]

My point is why waste money on upgrading the pig instead at least direct the money towards development of LCA.

Brozer I want the same but we can't do everything at once. Phasing out Jaguars will decrease our strength in one swoop.
Wity upgrades Jagaurs are supposed to serve uptil 2030 to 2035. They won't be fighting JF 17s or F 16 but they will do the job of A 10s bombing army columns.

U can dedicate all the money to Tejas program but a Fat elephant called HAL will sit on top of it. If u want government to divert money then ask them to divert it to some worthwhile agencies like ADA or GTRE. They have performed according to the amount that has been assigned, invest some more and they will give u results.

Also create a environment for private sector. Behind LM, Boeing, Airbus, Dassault there are thousands upon thousands of small and big comapnies that manufacture aircraft components from screws to Avionics and Engine.

 

[Longewala]

But those are indigenous isnt it? they are not paying others for the upgrades? They exported so many of them so they actually would have made money out of it.

My point is why waste money on upgrading the pig instead at least direct the money towards development of LCA.

As of pessimism? you do analysis on facts and not on dreams. Keep the emotions out of it and do your own analysis mate u ll have the picture in front of u.

Again I will be so happy to be proven wrong but i would rather stay on ground.

And their indigenous designs took decades to perfect.
India will have gone from zero to tejas mk 2 in the same time it took the west to go from zero (Wright brothers) to Hawker Hurricane

 

[IndianHawk]

Ok.. but production is still to be done by HAL isnt it? so the first MK1A will roll of by Mid 2022 so we have an order of 83 lets say to start with they will produce 16/year so it will take around 5 years to complete order but Mk2 will be ready by 2025/2026 so they will produce 24 MK2 + 16 Mk1A for 2 years? that a GIANT leap of faith. Not to forget we still dont have FOC MK1 and 8 trainers.

All these considering the fact DRDO and ADA deliver on their promise. Btw dont forget the testing of MK1A, it is bound to take time.

Mk1a production will gradually increase from 16 per to 24 per year so that it's complete before mwf roll out.

All 18 trainers will be build after foc lca including 10 trainers of mk1a order. All trainers will be foc standard only . They will be built before 1st mk1a roll out

 

[IndianHawk]

. They say production for MK1A will start 24 months after signing the deal, do we have even one MK1A config flying?

You haven't been paying attention.
Mk1a is same as mk1 . All it adds is aesa , spj prob , dual rack pylon and better LRU management.

So mk1a uses LSP Tejas as test prototype which have been testing these components.
LSP LCA are doing all the testing for mk1a constantly.

 

[IndianHawk]

MTOW of Jaguar: 15,700 kg (34,613 lb) with external stores which could have reduced over the period of time.
MTOW of LCA : 13,300 kg (29,321 lb)

Jaguar has longer legs than lca. More importantly jaguar squadron are already operational. It takes years to form and operationalize an squadron. No point throwing all that away in a jiffy.

Jaguar if re- engined will serve till 2035. If not they'll be retired before 2025. Our jaguars were built much later than western once and have life left in their airframes. No one throws away a platform which has structural life left. Not india not west. There jaguars were simply much older to ours.

 

[Shashank Nayak]

I had read somewhere a couple of jaguar squadrons, are retiring this year.. ?
only 61 Jaguars being upgraded... so we might have 3 squadrons retiring in the next few years...