ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[Rahul Singh]

First 20 was interim order. This time around they will be ordering an IOC fighter jet and for obvious reasons here there will be cost negotiation. IAF will take time to decide how much they want to spend from alloted budget and accordingly they will fix tentative price. After this it is upto manufacturer and designers to accept or ask for revision. 'Akash' orders has also taken time because of price disagreement, may be this time it is the same case. Today, ADA+HAL has every right to ask for genuine pricing.

 

[Crusader53]

speculations end -

Sunday, April 25, 2010

LCA radar is not a AESA !

Well it seems like the mystery has finally ended maybe a little on a sad note. As reported by us earlier that the radar recently tested on the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) being a AESA is wrong. It was justed informed to us that the radar tested was not a AESA but a hybrid of Elta- 2032.
The Radar is a mechanically steered multi-mode radar based on Israeli's Elta-2032 which currently in service on-board Indian Navy's Sea Harrier's. It was confirmed to us that the radar is 100% Indian with only the processor of Israeli origin. This radar will be used on the first 40 LCA's which are on order for the Indian Air force(IAF). Later on the LCA Mk-2's will have a AESA which is in works.
Angle of Attack apologizes for the misinforming before and letting the readers down. However with very little information coming out of HAL airport we did our best. But this still is a great achievement for the project and we wish all the best to the team for the coming future.

Images of Indian MMR and Elta-2032.

http://angle-of-attack.blogspot.com/2010/04/lca-radar-is-not-aesa.html

If, the N-LCA is used in an Advance Training Role. The Radar would be just fine.........

 

[Crusader53]

The LCA will be a good low cost fighter. That can support other tactical fighters like the Mirage 2000's, Mig-29's, Su-30MKI's and MMRCA's. Let's not make it into something its not. Clearly, it not an Air Superiority Fighter and/or Multi-Role Strike Fighter.


It will be of great value to the Indian Aerospace Industry as a stepping stone......

 

[Pandora]

can any one tell me when this article dated back ?

 

[icecoolben]

The LCA will be a good low cost fighter. That can support other tactical fighters like the Mirage 2000's, Mig-29's, Su-30MKI's and MMRCA's. Let's not make it into something its not. Clearly, it not an Air Superiority Fighter and/or Multi-Role Strike Fighter.


It will be of great value to the Indian Aerospace Industry as a stepping stone......

How long are we just going to stand there "stepping on the stone"?
The hill top is far away so better buckle up and start climbing my friend.

LCA Tejas is as multi-role as it basically gets.
A classic muti-role fighter performs three tasks Air superiority, strike and reconnasance.
Air superiority - is attained by two roles air defence and fleet defence, Tejas just fired salvos of R-73 which are its primary defence missile, Derby BVR trials are due shortly after clearance is received. It has 4000 kg of ordnance fighters in air defence congiuration seldom carry more than 2 tons of missile only load. Ask F-35 designers just 6*AMRAAMS.
Strike- is carried out by two ways precision guided munitions and armour piercing missiles. Tejas just performed dropping test bombs bang on target. Kh-59 cruise missiles are due for testing.
Reconassance- has Indian designed radar with El-2032 processor as primary sensor. Litening Targetting Pods are present for ground attack terrain mapping. EW suite mayavi present.
Tejas operational profile is being enlarged with chobam contracted for In-flight refuelling, drop tanks were just tested. What more muti-role capabilities u want in a multi-role fighter. We only need to catch up on sensor fusion and AESA radar they are due for Tejas Mk-2 in 2017. we are only 7-10 years behind western world due to Tejas programme. But for the program to reach its logical conclusion it needs 300 orders of 120 mk-1 and 180 mk-2 to truly incentive indian industry with the economy of scale required to take up manufacture. If there was no MMRCA, IAF wouldn't be dragging so much.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

can anyone clarify that whether the lca can be used in close air support role

 

[Rahul Singh]

X-Mas Special: Tejas' IOC saga -- It's a light, late, yet great story!

It's now official. India's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas will be given the initial operational clearance (IOC) in January 2011 and not on December 27. However, Tejas' makers at the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) are burning the mid-night oil to get the platform and systems certified through the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification (CEMILAC), as per the original December-27 deadline."As of now, we have fixed it has January 10 and this again is a verbal confirmation and nothing is in yet, in black and white. There are a host of VIPs who are scheduled to attend the event in Bangalore, including Defense Minister A.K. Antony. A final decision will be taken next week," military sources tell Tarmak007.

While ADA-DRDO is still working out the final template of the event, there are multiple theories floating as to what the event would be finally called. While one set claims that it would be called Release to Service, another school of thought says it will be 'Dedication of Tejas to the Nation.' Then there's a 'third front' which firmly believes that it can't be called IOC as there are a couple of more platforms from the Tejas flight-line to be flown\tested and hence it has to be IOC-1.

Says a top source at ADA: "Release to Service of a product whose standard of preparation is for IOC. We are about to finish what was demanded. When an aircraft reaches the final phase, there will be some minor issues. This is not an Indian phenomenon, but seen world over."
And, here are some confirmations:
1) The squadron formation of Tejas will most likely happen only in mid-2011.
2) The first platform (SP-1) from the initial block of 20 will be ready only by June\July 2011.
3) LSP-7 and LSP-8 will be ready only in March/April 2011.
4) Test pilots from IAF's elite Bangalore-based unit -- Aircraft System and Testing Establishment (ASTE) -- will fly Tejas soon after all IOC formalities are done.
5) Pilots from IAF will have to undergo the following before flying Tejas: intensive simulation training, studying the flight manuals and grasping the flight reference records. The pilots will also be given familiarization sessions.

"Normally our (IAF) Test pilots will have 2,000-3,000 hours of flying logged against their names. Squadron pilots will not\might not have this kind of expertise (w.r.t. number of hours as against test pilots) and hence pre-flight preparations become very vital. We will start with our evaluation trials with Test pilots (other than NFTC pilots). We have many experienced boys and some were up there flying the MMRCAs during the trials," a senior IAF official tells Tarmak007.

Insiders confirm that the morale of Team Tejas is sky high with 98 per cent of certification process completed when this blog goes live on X-Mas eve. "By December 27, we will have one more flight of LSP-5 to test some points. We are ready. No issues with the dates spilling over to next year," says an engineer with CEMILAC.

Interestingly, an IAF official, who attended a meeting of Tejas think-tank on December 21 in New Delhi, says the program as complex as Tejas, will have some last-minute issues. "Having come this far, we are keen to ensure that everything is in place. But, the truth is they (ADA-HAL) have asked for some concessions and we have given it, after discussions," he said.

So folks! Independent-India's first home-grown fighter plane is ready.
It's light! But it's late! But, isn't it great?

 

[Crusader53]

How long are we just going to stand there "stepping on the stone"?
The hill top is far away so better buckle up and start climbing my friend.

LCA Tejas is as multi-role as it basically gets.
A classic muti-role fighter performs three tasks Air superiority, strike and reconnasance.
Air superiority - is attained by two roles air defence and fleet defence, Tejas just fired salvos of R-73 which are its primary defence missile, Derby BVR trials are due shortly after clearance is received. It has 4000 kg of ordnance fighters in air defence congiuration seldom carry more than 2 tons of missile only load. Ask F-35 designers just 6*AMRAAMS.
Strike- is carried out by two ways precision guided munitions and armour piercing missiles. Tejas just performed dropping test bombs bang on target. Kh-59 cruise missiles are due for testing.
Reconassance- has Indian designed radar with El-2032 processor as primary sensor. Litening Targetting Pods are present for ground attack terrain mapping. EW suite mayavi present.
Tejas operational profile is being enlarged with chobam contracted for In-flight refuelling, drop tanks were just tested. What more muti-role capabilities u want in a multi-role fighter. We only need to catch up on sensor fusion and AESA radar they are due for Tejas Mk-2 in 2017. we are only 7-10 years behind western world due to Tejas programme. But for the program to reach its logical conclusion it needs 300 orders of 120 mk-1 and 180 mk-2 to truly incentive indian industry with the economy of scale required to take up manufacture. If there was no MMRCA, IAF wouldn't be dragging so much.

Sorry, but you are living in a dream world my friend. The LCA is really handicapped by it small size. Which, limits its payload and range. Plus, hurt's with such things as Radar Performance. (btw its not getting AESA Radar either)


Maybe you would like to state the fighter or fighters that the LCA is superior too???

 

[icecoolben]

Sorry, but you are living in a dream world my friend. The LCA is really handicapped by it small size. Which, limits its payload and range. Plus, hurt's with such things as Radar Performance. (btw its not getting AESA Radar either)


Maybe you would like to state the fighter or fighters that the LCA is superior too???

Tejas is only going to go against JF-17, mirage F1, F-7, compared to which LCA Tejas is certainly superior in every aspect.

 

[SHASH2K2]

Sorry, but you are living in a dream world my friend. The LCA is really handicapped by it small size. Which, limits its payload and range. Plus, hurt's with such things as Radar Performance. (btw its not getting AESA Radar either)


Maybe you would like to state the fighter or fighters that the LCA is superior too???

LCA will be mainly used as interceptor in Air defence role and you donot need to carry heavy BOMBS for that also it has decent capability to carry weapons for air defence role .

 

[Rahul Singh]

Sorry, but you are living in a dream world my friend. The LCA is really handicapped by it small size. Which, limits its payload and range.

Have you ever wondered why IAF is buying M-MRCAs in spite of having MKI and why IAF is committed to AMCA in spite of signing for FGFA? You know IAF's doctrine asks for fully multi-role fighters in three different class classified as Heavy, Medium and Light. Heavy fighters like MKI and FGFAs are for ultra long range missions, Light fighters like Mig-21s and LCA are for short range missions mainly border level and M-MRCAs like Mirage 2000s and Mig-29Us and to be bought M-MRCA is to fill in gap between them. Ever wondered why F-16s were inducted in numbers even when F-15s were rolling good? If you know the answer you very well know why a L-MRCA like LCA is required in IAF in spite of having MKI and M2Ks.

In short LCA is to fill in the same role in present time which A-4s filled in late 60s. A light low cost fighter with quick turn around to do workhorse role.

Plus, hurt's with such things as Radar Performance. (btw its not getting AESA Radar either) Maybe you would like to state the fighter or fighters that the LCA is superior too???

Do you know what is performance of hybrid MMR? May be you could share with us. As far as i know still till this date 80% of fighters in the world are using same panel rotating Pulse Doppler MMR and even EF is not getting AESA before 2013-15. I don't know if absence of MMRs in these jets especially EF make them handicap. Just for your information LCA was always planned to get AESA but in later tranches and as we know today MK-2 will be having AESA MMR.

Better you first name any L-MRCA in the world which is superior to LCA.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Indian Navy has asked bidders to integrate into their candidate aircraft include the Link II (two) datalink system plus IFF interrogator and transponder units, all made by Bangalore-based Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL)

LINK II

Link II is a communication system that, using HF, VHF and UHF radios, is designed to connect IN warships, submarines, helicopters, fixed-wing aircraft and shore establishments, enabling them to exchange messages and tactical data 'in a speedy, reliable and secure manner'.

As part of its tactical data comms function, Link II generates the tactical picture using data from sensors including radar, sonar and EW equipment. Air, surface, subsurface and 'special' tracks can be exchanged between different datalink platforms, says BEL, while air raid warnings and radar/radio silence orders can be distributed through the system. In addition to all the track information, other types of data available over the link include ESM intercept bearings, aircraft status, over-the-horizon-targeting (OTHT) messages and orders.

It also carries out wide area network (WAN) functions including modifications of address lists and network numbers, is capable of multi-circuit operation from a single platform and handles forward error correction, interfacing with modems, 'tactical devices' satellite communications, telephone lines and even 'Sanchar' the radio telegram service run by Bharat Sanchar Nigam Ltd. It also does LAN and tactical data channel management.

Because its message formats are different, Link II is not compatible with NATO datalink systems such as Link 11 (eleven), Link 22 and Link 16, but a BEL engineer told RotorHUB that it could be made compatible through gateways if a customer wanted it that way.

I found this piece of news which is making me wonder if speculations regarding French made or Israeli made Data Links in LCA are over? I guess may be not as user is IAF. But what about N-LCA? I mean if Navy has mandated Link II in P-8Is and to be bought helicopters then it is almost certain that at least N-LCA will be using this Link II(or its improved versions). Now, i wonder with what data link first batch of Mig-29Ks are equipped with or will be equipped with if not Link II?

 

[Rahul Singh]

can anyone clarify that whether the lca can be used in close air support role

Indeed it can but it will have to be armed with 250 lb LGBs and short range A2G missiles. Since LCA is already integrated with LITENING targeting pod it is fair to say that LCA is already LGB capable. Another requirement for CAS is cannon and LCA is already armed with GSH-23 which will become operation by FOC. Next requirement is short range A2G missile for which IAF may select Helina or AGM-65 Maveric or any Russian equivalent.

In short with addition of special weapons LCA will become CAS capable. But it will not be comparable to SU-25s or A-10s because LCA is not and may never be equipped with armour.

 

[sesha_maruthi27]

 

[chex3009]

Finally IOC shifted to January 2011......

It's now official. India's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas will be given the initial operational clearance (IOC) in January 2011 and not on December 27. However, Tejas' makers at the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) are burning the mid-night oil to get the platform and systems certified through the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification (CEMILAC), as per the original December-27 deadline."As of now, we have fixed it has January 10 and this again is a verbal confirmation and nothing is in yet, in black and white. There are a host of VIPs who are scheduled to attend the event in Bangalore, including Defense Minister A.K. Antony. A final decision will be taken next week," military sources tell Tarmak007.
While ADA-DRDO is still working out the final template of the event, there are multiple theories floating as to what the event would be finally called. While one set claims that it would be called Release to Service, another school of thought says it will be 'Dedication of Tejas to the Nation.' Then there's a 'third front' which firmly believes that it can't be called IOC as there are a couple of more platforms from the Tejas flight-line to be flown\tested and hence it has to be IOC-1.
Says a top source at ADA: "Release to Service of a product whose standard of preparation is for IOC. We are about to finish what was demanded. When an aircraft reaches the final phase, there will be some minor issues. This is not an Indian phenomenon, but seen world over."
And, here are some confirmations:
1) The squadron formation of Tejas will most likely happen only in mid-2011.
2) The first platform (SP-1) from the initial block of 20 will be ready only by June\July 2011.
3) LSP-7 and LSP-8 will be ready only in March/April 2011.
4) Test pilots from IAF's elite Bangalore-based unit -- Aircraft System and Testing Establishment (ASTE) -- will fly Tejas soon after all IOC formalities are done.
5) Pilots from IAF will have to undergo the following before flying Tejas: intensive simulation training, studying the flight manuals and grasping the flight reference records. The pilots will also be given familiarization sessions.
"Normally our (IAF) Test pilots will have 2,000-3,000 hours of flying logged against their names. Squadron pilots will not\might not have this kind of expertise (w.r.t. number of hours as against test pilots) and hence pre-flight preparations become very vital. We will start with our evaluation trials with Test pilots (other than NFTC pilots). We have many experienced boys and some were up there flying the MMRCAs during the trials," a senior IAF official tells Tarmak007.
Insiders confirm that the morale of Team Tejas is sky high with 98 per cent of certification process completed when this blog goes live on X-Mas eve. "By December 27, we will have one more flight of LSP-5 to test some points. We are ready. No issues with the dates spilling over to next year," says an engineer with CEMILAC.
Interestingly, an IAF official, who attended a meeting of Tejas think-tank on December 21 in New Delhi, says the program as complex as Tejas, will have some last-minute issues. "Having come this far, we are keen to ensure that everything is in place. But, the truth is they (ADA-HAL) have asked for some concessions and we have given them, after discussions," he said.
So folks! Independent-India's first home-grown fighter plane is ready.
It's light! But it's late! But, isn't it great?

http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2010/12/tejas-ioc-saga-its-light-late-yet-great.html

 

[ppgj]

I found this piece of news which is making me wonder if speculations regarding French made or Israeli made Data Links in LCA are over? I guess may be not as user is IAF. But what about N-LCA? I mean if Navy has mandated Link II in P-8Is and to be bought helicopters then it is almost certain that at least N-LCA will be using this Link II(or its improved versions). Now, i wonder with what data link first batch of Mig-29Ks are equipped with or will be equipped with if not Link II?

i am not sure if Mig 29K has datalink.

there is an ongoing phased project (as a pilot project to begin with) to be completed by 2012. IAI was given the project in a multi vendor contest.

Though all three vendors were technically qualified IAI had bid the lowest amount. If reports are to be believed then Rafael apparently offered to carry out the contract for free, which apparently became a ground for its rejection!

The ODL is a pilot project for the IAF's network-centric warfare programme which will provide the force with the capability to field advanced data and voice networking over the next 10 years.

Under the pilot programme the air force will network selected aircraft and ground stations in order to obtain experience in developing standard operating procedures, integrating platform mission computers and training operational and maintenance personnel.The ODL network-centric warfare programme will be carried out in phases, and the entire program is scheduled to be operational by 2012.

http://www.domain-b.com/defence/air_space/iaf/20090120_iai_bags_contract.html

i guess once project is complete, most frontline aircrafts including transport, helis, UAVs will be integrated with the the NCW infra. i guess BEL Datalink 2 will be the standard to all aircrafts post operationalising IMO. if you look at P-8I, the first will join only in 2013.

this quote is from livefist -

Some info on Data Link II, courtesy BEL's Bangalore Office: Data Link II enables communication in fleet ships, submarines, helicopters / aircraft and shore establishments. This system enables Indian Navy personnel to exchange messages as well as tactical data in a speedy, reliable and secure manner. Functions: Message communication, Tactical communication. Benefits: Force multiplication of fleet by presenting super tactical picture as each platform in the network has both local (received from tactical system) and remote tactical data (received from another platform over the network). Facility to give tactical commands from various platforms. In certain critical situations (e.g. to avoid detection near enemy area), platform has to switch off all its sensors, but it is still be able to get the tactical picture over the network with remote from other platform's sensors. Missions can be accomplished for targets which are not within reach of local sensors but are detected by other platform's sensors and their position and other information is sent over the tactical network. Data Link II consists of a Main Peripheral Unit (MPU), Display Unit (DU) and a Keyboard Unit (see photo).

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/05/boeing-receives-1st-p-8i-indigenous.html

fwiw..

 

[Rahul Singh]

Mate, i accept LINK II is first initiative or something close to but i don't think anything like full operationalization is left. I mean, why Navy will choose BEL data link and allow it to be shipped to USA for integration on her most high tech weapon so far if any "if and but" is still left ? Furthermore Navy has already mandated LINK II on new to be bought ASW helicopters.

On side note, quoted article clearly illustrates difference between the ethics and foresight of Navy and Air Force. On one side Navy is networking her relatively more complex hardwares using indigenous Data Links and on the other side Air Force is networking relatively less complex hardwares using foreign made data links. Wonder when Air Force will learn from Navy, if ever?

 

[icecoolben]

Indeed it can but it will have to be armed with 250 lb LGBs and short range A2G missiles. Since LCA is already integrated with LITENING targeting pod it is fair to say that LCA is already LGB capable. Another requirement for CAS is cannon and LCA is already armed with GSH-23 which will become operation by FOC. Next requirement is short range A2G missile for which IAF may select Helina or AGM-65 Maveric or any Russian equivalent.

In short with addition of special weapons LCA will become CAS capable. But it will not be comparable to SU-25s or A-10s because LCA is not and may never be equipped with armour.

Out of context, in kargil mirage 2000, carried 2 magic missiles and 4 lgbs per mission. So are LGBs enough for tejas to be a viable close air support plane on the mountains.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Out of context, in kargil mirage 2000, carried 2 magic missiles and 4 lgbs per mission. So are LGBs enough for tejas to be a viable close air support plane on the mountains.

No, especially in Kargil type conflict absolutely not. Small diameter LGB's alone are not sufficient, LCA also needs laser guided short range A2G missiles like AGM-65 for effective CAS.

 

[icecoolben]

The aircraft has wing and fuselage tanks and an in-flight refuelling probe on the front starboard side. Drop tanks with a capacity up to 4,000l, can be carried on the inner and mid-board wing and fuselage centreline hardpoints.

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/tejas/

It seems Tejas has a refuelling probe, so its range can be extended by quite a margin thus enveloping the flight profile of MMRCA contenders regarding a local conflict within Indian skies and close air support along front lines. Nicely Su-30 mki and Tejas mk-1 later mk-2 can complement themselves for another 15 years till J-xx is fielded in numbers, for which we have a counter weight in the FGFA.

Since IAF is the only organiisation repeatedly getting rapped by the CAG for cost escalation, improper planning, etc. Are they trying to get overboard on all accounts?

I just made a little analysis and IAF strategy,plans and doctrine almost always fall between the stools advanced very accountable Air Forces around the world use to stay on top of not just the adversary, but also attriction, pilot evaluation, cost cutting and doctrine.