ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[TPFscopes]

Updates froffic Indranil :

1. The supersonic tanks and the 800 ltr tanks are coming up for various tests by the end of the year before actual flight testing.

2. The lowest speed for LCA Mk1 is below the 120 knots that has been put up on that chart. They are regularly flying below that number now. Don't ask further, won't tell.

3. The AUW for the LCA AF Mk2 in that chart is approximately correct.
4. The climb rate of LCA is wrong. Don't ask further, won't tell.
5. The (unrefueled) ferry range is currently not 3000 kms, but they are going to plumb the midboard pylons as well. You are speaking of 4000 ltrs of extra fuel. At that point 3000 kms will be.

6. Note the maximum payload of Mk1. It is not exactly 4000 kg, but pretty close.
7. The uninstalled thrust on Mk1, Mk2 and the Gripen are all wrong.
8. Mk2 is going to +9G capable

=============

Few points need to be noticed, The chart has some errors and its outdated ..

Yup, there are some errors but it is quite fine to show that official sources also have errors at least for sometime.
But in the mentioned pic the ferry range is correct for MK1 Which will be further extended on MK1A with IFR.

There are many members here who have a lot of confusion between Ferry range, combat range and combat radius.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

That is not GOI published chart, But yes i will take that as a work of some team involve in Tejas project and this is a product of their own work in some presentation..

official sources also have errors at least for sometime..

 

[TPFscopes]

That is not GOI published chart, But yes i will take that as a work of some team involve in Tejas project and this is a product of their own work in some presentation..

Yup, it is from the product outlet but can't confirm the event and location.

 

[Steven Rogers]

PAKFA and others too prior to that flew with supersonic external fuel tanks from the first test of the same.

LCA got sanctioned the sub-sonic ones. Didn't it? And nobody even flagged it.


Shows where the moollah is.

Future LCA will be cruising with supersonic fuel tanks.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Hi to all,

I would like to share short and duly confirmed update:
1. There will be more LCAs for IAF (as speculated earlier) and the Total may cross the line of 200 units.
2. There will be another SE jet, it may either F-16 or Gripen. MoD favors F-16 whereas IAF shows its interest in Gripen. selection will be confirmed soon.
3. More Rafales will be there for sure and the number may cross 150..
4. FGFA is still supported by MoD but no support from IAF (as of now)
5. LCA Mk2 seems to be in Bog which leads to the delay in the project and if it continues project maybe crushed. ( more updates later)
6. For AMCA, The project will not see an significant push until or unless developers test the stealth on 1:1 (full scale) model which is final stages of fabrication.
7. IAF despirately want Safran modified Kaveri Engine on all LCAs.

My words:
If Safran/GTRE Kaveri will meet its success than it will be possible to retrofit on India Rafales, but also on Gripen (if selected)

@S.Balaji @Kunal Biswas @gadeshi @soikot banerjee @Vijyes @Sidd @Armand2REP @varun9509 @su30mki2017

I still doubt French on Kaveri engine.....
What magic they will do in 15 months to make Kaveri fly with 90+kN thrust...

 

[Steven Rogers]

That core has potential to run at 105kn, it has been confirmed on the bench. France did not want to use it at that power because it decreased the hours of serviceability and consumed more fuel. The goal of the programme was to improve service and economy by 15%, not decrease by that amount. With some funding they can get it more economical but we just weren't willing to spend on it without an export customer, ie UAE who required it.

You talking about 105kN wet and 50kN dry of M88.

 

[Steven Rogers]

View attachment 19972

ADA annual report says otherwise!
Also, as a matter of fact the IAF committee to look after the tejas MK2 programme has only been authorised to ADA and not HAL, again IAF is a 30% share holder of the total cost in developing MK2. So technically MK2 will be more closer or exactly what they need. Bigger range, IRST, Better engine. Remember Mk1a was afterall a stopgap jugaad by HAL till MK2 arrives, and if at all MK1a is ready then why only an AoN has been given and not View attachment 19975
an official contract has been signed between IAF and HAL?

LCA MK2 AF is frozen not the naval, and yes he t

let me summarize UTTAM project for all members..

Specifications and Progress as of now:

• Technical Specification:
  • To have around 700 TRMs
  • 150Kms detection range for a 2sqm target
  • Search upto 100 targets, track 20 and target 6.
  • Weight of radar unit to be around 110Kgs (fianl weight)
  • To be GaAs based
• Three prototypes operational as of now, three more to be added by the end of this year.
• Software coding for all modes including A2A, A2G and SAR completed.
• Ground tests completed.
• Has also been flight tested on a helicopter test bed using a smaller TD
• Cooling requirement of 3.6KW.
• GaN for next gen successfully inititated
• LCA LSP 2 is being readied to LRDE for testing UTTAM radar.
• Airborne testing will commenced in further months of 2017 and final tests & approval are expected within first quarter of 2018.
• You guys may track the flights of LSP-2, visit http://www.tejas.gov.in

A bit correction, 700+trms, it shows more than 720 trms and less than 750s in the model which was shown in Aero India 2017 ...
With each QTRMS of 10watts, it counts around 2kW avg power output. And I doubt whole cooling systems will be used to cool only modules if it has 3.6kW peak power output which last speculated was 2.6kW.... May be I'm wrong.

 

[Vijyes]

I still doubt French on Kaveri engine.....
What magic they will do in 15 months to make Kaveri fly with 90+kN thrust...

Please look at the development time of EJ200. We have had 81kN in 2013 itself. We are trying to rectify several problems and make it 90kN+. When Europe could make an upgrade to its engine, why can't India? What is so special about others that India lacks?

Let's speak more of Kaveri in Kaveri engine thread http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/kaveri-engine.5097/page-110

This thread has been severely polluted and is running like a chitchat thread with 710 pages. Please stop engine posting here and restrict to Kaveri engine threads

 

[Steven Rogers]

Please look at the development time of EJ200. We have had 81kN in 2013 itself. We are trying to rectify several problems and make it 90kN+. When Europe could make an upgrade to its engine, why can't India? What is so special about others that India lacks?

Let's speak more of Kaveri in Kaveri engine thread http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/kaveri-engine.5097/page-110

This thread has been severely polluted and is running like a chitchat thread with 710 pages. Please stop engine posting here and restrict to Kaveri engine threads

Exactly, what French will do in 2 years or less, it is already been rectified to some extent by GTRE, and in the final stage of development, France is just adding a label on Kaveri.......

 

[Armand2REP]

You talking about 105kN wet and 50kN dry of M88.

I am talking about the early compression ratios that were tested for the M88 to find the most efficient engine. It was tested at 105kN wet which has a military thrust of 73kN dry.

 

[singh100ful]

Wonder why every progress of such an important national project is not reported by MSM, the way it is done by IDRW and its ilk. Meanwhile, they keep writing articles on single-engine tender. Is it 'cause these foreign lobbies pay them to write these articles? If so, this begs the question why HAL cannot spend an equivalent amount to propagate paid news as a means of marketing their product? Are there any laws against doing so? Fact is I cannot stand to see the treason the MSM perpetrates just to get some extra $$$. This should be brought to the fore in social media and media houses that try to misuse their reach and people's trust in such an underhand manner and try to sabotage indigenous technology and production. These idiots will spend an hour showcasing someone driving a bike running on compressed air as a tech marvel, meanwhile the scientists at DRDO working their a** off do not get next to nil coverage. If only the public cared about defence matters. The public thinks they care, while all that has been created in their minds is a post-truth political construct where the ineptness of Armed Forces acquisition programs is covered by the bravery of Indian soldiers. This is insulting to the Indian Soldier and is equivalent of saying that just because Indian soldiers are brave, we do not need to give them the best as they will get the job done regardless. The public merely washes their hands off of matters plaguing the defence establishment after giving their customary solemn salute to the martyrs. I think I have gone off on a tangent for long enough.

Long story short, HAL should try to fight this media-foreign arms lobby nexus by calling out their bluff and should take steps that a similar foreign defence firm - Indian defence firm - Indian media nexus is not formed under the guise of the SO model.

HAL needs sanction from MoD for every expense.

 

[Khagesh]

Future LCA will be cruising with supersonic fuel tanks.

Thanks for the effort but this could have been done 14 years back. And will be done only when India finally finds the money for the full 126 rafale order.

http://www.tejas.gov.in/history/milestones.html
2003

• Tejas crossed the sonic barrier for the first time

• 25th November - PV-1 made her successful maiden flight.

 

[tejas warrior]

No. of flights successfully completed by LCA - Tejas :

• 3562th flight on 13th Sep
TD1 : 233 PV1: 245 PV3: 387 LSP1: 74 LSP3:330 LSP5: 352
TD2 : 305 PV2: 222 PV5: 179 LSP2: 314 LSP4: 303 LSP7: 194
NP1: 73 LSP8 : 191 PV6:105 NP2: 55

• 3538th flight on 31st Aug
TD1 : 233 PV1: 245 PV3: 387 LSP1: 74 LSP3:328 LSP5: 352
TD2 : 305 PV2: 222 PV5: 173 LSP2: 314 LSP4: 301 LSP7: 189
NP1: 73 LSP8 : 182 PV6:105 NP2: 55

• 3496th flight on 31st July
TD1 : 233 PV1: 245 PV3: 387 LSP1: 74 LSP3:326 LSP5: 352
TD2 : 305 PV2: 222 PV5: 165 LSP2: 314 LSP4: 290 LSP7: 179
NP1: 73 LSP8 : 171 PV6:105 NP2: 55

 

[Steven Rogers]

No. of flights successfully completed by LCA - Tejas :

• 3562th flight on 13th Sep
TD1 : 233 PV1: 245 PV3: 387 LSP1: 74 LSP3:330 LSP5: 352
TD2 : 305 PV2: 222 PV5: 179 LSP2: 314 LSP4: 303 LSP7: 194
NP1: 73 LSP8 : 191 PV6:105 NP2: 55

• 3538th flight on 31st Aug
TD1 : 233 PV1: 245 PV3: 387 LSP1: 74 LSP3:328 LSP5: 352
TD2 : 305 PV2: 222 PV5: 173 LSP2: 314 LSP4: 301 LSP7: 189
NP1: 73 LSP8 : 182 PV6:105 NP2: 55

• 3496th flight on 31st July
TD1 : 233 PV1: 245 PV3: 387 LSP1: 74 LSP3:326 LSP5: 352
TD2 : 305 PV2: 222 PV5: 165 LSP2: 314 LSP4: 290 LSP7: 179
NP1: 73 LSP8 : 171 PV6:105 NP2: 55

How many hours, has LCA flown... I am expecting high flying hours after its induction

 

[soikot banerjee]

"
NEW DELHI ― The ruling National Democratic Alliance government’s Make in India policy could suffer a major blow as the Indian Air Force mulls the purchase of 105 Mark 2 versions of futuristic, homemade light-combat aircraft for $15 billion.

Service officials and analysts say the program faces uncertainty due to a lack of clarity and other immediate priorities.

As of now, the Air Force wants to place an order with state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, or HAL, for only 83 Mark 1 versions of the LCA for a cost of about $7.81 billion to meet the immediate fighters requirement.



“LCA Mark 2 is a far-fetched vision. The service wants improvement on existing LCA to address all issues of looms, improvement in performance, interchange ability, improved U.S.-made GE 414 [engine], improved avionics and missiles to be fitted on it,” a senior Indian Air Force official said.

Daljit Singh, a defense analyst and retired Air Force air marshal, said that the Mark 2 effort ”was proposed by the IAF to ensure that the LCA complies with majority of the air staff requirements. However, that would involve major design change of fuselage to accommodate more powerful engine.”

A senior executive of HAL said the production line of the LCA Mark 1A could be used for the Mark 2 version, but the executive refused to comment if there were plans to execute an LCA Mark 2 program.

The Air Force had initially sought 105 of the Mark 2 versions, which would come with fifth-generation fighter elements; improved propulsion system; a mounted, homemade Uttam active electronically scanned array radar; and the capability to carry 5,000 kilograms of armament.

A Ministry of Defense official said the LCA Mark 2 cannot be abandoned because it’s an important Indian-made project. The official added that efforts will be made to set the program on track for the Air Force.
On the future of the LCA Mark 2, Singh noted: “The project does not appear to have formal sanction, even though a lot of deliberations appear to have taken place.

"

Link: http://www.defensenews.com/air/2017...-combat-aircraft-overshadowed-by-predecessor/

The article says: LCA MK 2 is in dole drums. Sources specified are unnamed officials, self proclaimed analysts and says there has been no formal sanction of money from goverment so far, Standing committee on Defence: Report 30 says that 2052.6 Cr have been sanctioned

Article can't exactly quantify the claim of IAF really dumping the LCA Mk-2, but does says of some hiccups?

What exactly is this article trying to say then?.

 

[SanjeevM]

"
NEW DELHI ― The ruling National Democratic Alliance government’s Make in India policy could suffer a major blow as the Indian Air Force mulls the purchase of 105 Mark 2 versions of futuristic, homemade light-combat aircraft for $15 billion.

Service officials and analysts say the program faces uncertainty due to a lack of clarity and other immediate priorities.

As of now, the Air Force wants to place an order with state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, or HAL, for only 83 Mark 1 versions of the LCA for a cost of about $7.81 billion to meet the immediate fighters requirement.



“LCA Mark 2 is a far-fetched vision. The service wants improvement on existing LCA to address all issues of looms, improvement in performance, interchange ability, improved U.S.-made GE 414 [engine], improved avionics and missiles to be fitted on it,” a senior Indian Air Force official said.

Daljit Singh, a defense analyst and retired Air Force air marshal, said that the Mark 2 effort ”was proposed by the IAF to ensure that the LCA complies with majority of the air staff requirements. However, that would involve major design change of fuselage to accommodate more powerful engine.”

A senior executive of HAL said the production line of the LCA Mark 1A could be used for the Mark 2 version, but the executive refused to comment if there were plans to execute an LCA Mark 2 program.

The Air Force had initially sought 105 of the Mark 2 versions, which would come with fifth-generation fighter elements; improved propulsion system; a mounted, homemade Uttam active electronically scanned array radar; and the capability to carry 5,000 kilograms of armament.

A Ministry of Defense official said the LCA Mark 2 cannot be abandoned because it’s an important Indian-made project. The official added that efforts will be made to set the program on track for the Air Force.
On the future of the LCA Mark 2, Singh noted: “The project does not appear to have formal sanction, even though a lot of deliberations appear to have taken place.

"

Link: http://www.defensenews.com/air/2017...-combat-aircraft-overshadowed-by-predecessor/

The article says: LCA MK 2 is in dole drums. Sources specified are unnamed officials, self proclaimed analysts and says there has been no formal sanction of money from goverment so far, Standing committee on Defence: Report 30 says that 2052.6 Cr have been sanctioned

Article can't exactly quantify the claim of IAF really dumping the LCA Mk-2, but does says of some hiccups?

What exactly is this article trying to say then?.

This means IAF is not going to increase orders for MK1A in present configuration. MK2 is in design stage and will take years to materialize. In the meanwhile IAF will follow the age old practice going for foreign maal. Hit directly on face of Make in India.

 

[Vijyes]

The ADA has said many times that it can't divert resources from AMCA as AMCA ks high priority. So, MK2 is being delayed deliberately to make room for AMCA. May be AMCA will be stripped down without many equipment and sensors to make a 4th generation plane named LCA MK2 with dual engine. I see it more beneficial to just strip down a 5th generation aircraft and make it 4.5 generation one. If the engine is Indian, it won't matter if it is dual engine or single engine aircraft

 

[soikot banerjee]

The ADA has said many times that it can't divert resources from AMCA as AMCA ks high priority. So, MK2 is being delayed deliberately to make room for AMCA. May be AMCA will be stripped down without many equipment and sensors to make a 4th generation plane named LCA MK2 with dual engine. I see it more beneficial to just strip down a 5th generation aircraft and make it 4.5 generation one. If the engine is Indian, it won't matter if it is dual engine or single engine aircraft

Can you explain this in bit more detail?
Had the ADA/HAL/IAF/GoI ever mentioned anything like that in recent times?

 

[Vijyes]

Can you explain this in bit more detail?
Had the ADA/HAL/IAF/GoI ever mentioned anything like that in recent times?

Yes, one of the news i read a few months back stated that someone in the designing agency had said about the thinning of resources for AMCA if LCA MK2 is undertaken and the need for fastening AMCA as it is of higher priority

 

[IndianHawk]

The below pic Describing many comparison aspects including Ferry Range.
And the best part is that this chart was presented by the LCA's developers.

"
NEW DELHI ― The ruling National Democratic Alliance government’s Make in India policy could suffer a major blow as the Indian Air Force mulls the purchase of 105 Mark 2 versions of futuristic, homemade light-combat aircraft for $15 billion.

Service officials and analysts say the program faces uncertainty due to a lack of clarity and other immediate priorities.

As of now, the Air Force wants to place an order with state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, or HAL, for only 83 Mark 1 versions of the LCA for a cost of about $7.81 billion to meet the immediate fighters requirement.



“LCA Mark 2 is a far-fetched vision. The service wants improvement on existing LCA to address all issues of looms, improvement in performance, interchange ability, improved U.S.-made GE 414 [engine], improved avionics and missiles to be fitted on it,” a senior Indian Air Force official said.

Daljit Singh, a defense analyst and retired Air Force air marshal, said that the Mark 2 effort ”was proposed by the IAF to ensure that the LCA complies with majority of the air staff requirements. However, that would involve major design change of fuselage to accommodate more powerful engine.”

A senior executive of HAL said the production line of the LCA Mark 1A could be used for the Mark 2 version, but the executive refused to comment if there were plans to execute an LCA Mark 2 program.

The Air Force had initially sought 105 of the Mark 2 versions, which would come with fifth-generation fighter elements; improved propulsion system; a mounted, homemade Uttam active electronically scanned array radar; and the capability to carry 5,000 kilograms of armament.

A Ministry of Defense official said the LCA Mark 2 cannot be abandoned because it’s an important Indian-made project. The official added that efforts will be made to set the program on track for the Air Force.
On the future of the LCA Mark 2, Singh noted: “The project does not appear to have formal sanction, even though a lot of deliberations appear to have taken place.

"

Link: http://www.defensenews.com/air/2017...-combat-aircraft-overshadowed-by-predecessor/

The article says: LCA MK 2 is in dole drums. Sources specified are unnamed officials, self proclaimed analysts and says there has been no formal sanction of money from goverment so far, Standing committee on Defence: Report 30 says that 2052.6 Cr have been sanctioned

Article can't exactly quantify the claim of IAF really dumping the LCA Mk-2, but does says of some hiccups?

What exactly is this article trying to say then?.

Look at that comparison chart. And look at what iaf wants from LCA mk2.
Let me clearly state. IAF now wants LCA mk2 to be almost as capable as mirage in terms of payload , range etc .

Now I get this clearly. When LCA was designed in 1983 it was only to replace mig21. A small humble fighter. To run on minimum expense. ( We were very poor back in 83 when LCA was on design table).

But suddenly after 2010 IAF wants it's capacity to equal that of a mirage which was the most potent of iaf fighters before su30 .

Two things come to mind. Our financials are good now we can spend more on fuel so we want LCA to be more capable but that's fine. But then LCA mk1 is already more capable than all the MIGs that we have so why are there not equal no. Of confirmed orders. Why is iaf comfortable with mig 21 , 27 and not LCA mk1. LCA mk1A is clearly capable to replace all the MIGs 21, 27 .

2nd we should've designed LCA to be a mirage class fighter from the very beginning it would have saved all that drama we are facing now. 30 years later we are demanding LCA to have same capabilities (not in technology but in crude things weight , payload , range , internal fuel). These are things LCA has been criticised for . People forget about it's composite , fly by wire, advanced helmet / glass cockpit. But it's criticised because it can't carry as much payload as f16 or mirage which are simply much bigger and heavier than what we designed LCA for!!!!

Iaf clearly screwed up with it's priorities. Lca mk2 is an advantage and not an excuse to delay mig replacement or importing f16. LCA mk1 already satisfy whatever migs can do.