ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[TPFscopes]

[I have qouted here a small piece from the article ''India @70: How Safe Our Sky Is? Senior Defence Journalist Mukesh Kaushik Detailed Analysis'' by DefenceAviationPost on August 15, 2017.]

''To enhance the force level, the IAF has contracted 272 Su-30 MKI fighter aircraft out of which 213 Su-30 MKI have been delivered till date and the balance are likely to be delivered by 2020.''


There is a debatable issue regarding the depleting fighter squadron strength. The sanctioned strength of fighter squadrons was determined decades ago and there has been, as such, no reassessment of the force level.
Well known defence blogger Shiv Aroor calls it “legacy strength” and he has valid reasons for the same.
“The reason I say ‘legacy’ is because that number, defined many decades ago, doesn’t quite take into account higher performance jets eroding the need for larger numbers. You’re inviting problems if the planning-related bean count involves both MiG-21s and Su-30MkIs in the same sweep. It’s a bit of slippery slope,” he says, arguing that the ‘no replacement for numbers’ theory has some good arguments, but many bad ones — not least inventory and cost.
“Many of the IAF’s logistics and planning issues probably have a road leading to that inescapable tether around its sanctioned squadron strength. I’ve suggested in the past that the indigenous LCA Tejas should be inducted in large numbers to build an eco-system around the platform and help speed up the replacement of MiG-21 squadrons,” said Aroor.

Source Link: http://defenceaviationpost.com/india-70-safe-sky/

I don't know why these presstitutes kept silent when Migs are getting obsolete and our former Government was silent like Mr. MMS and securing the culprits of various scams.
And now, within 4 years they want each and everything in the limited available budget.

 

[TPFscopes]

We have inducted LCAs over a year ago. Any info on how they performed in their first year.

I understand that only 5 are operational, and one of them were inducted less than two months ago.

But if there is any bits of info on how LCA did it's first year would be great.

Right now, IAF is only familiarise with it.
As of now, No active practices are being conducted by IAF.
But IAF officials praise its handling and performance.

 

[tharun]

MKI production will continue until 2024/5 at least.

But additional orders are yet to be formalized . Without them su30 line will end in 2020.

3) HAL has a strong voice inside the MoD, they won't want to see jobs lost
4) IF the FGFA is coming it will only be coming in the mid-2020s (certainly not before 2025) and it will take over the MKI line, HAL can't afford to let the Nasik line shut and skills be lost 5-6 years before FGFA production commences

By 2020 Su-30MKI manufacturing line will be closed and then the line will be used for the overhauling of
Su-30mki.

I think FGFA will have new line because all the manufacturing methods employed in fifth generation are very different from present.

 

[HarshBardhan]

Pakistan has inducted LY-80 LOMADS Air Defence System but HAL Tejas ain't give a shit to it =)

Many people in our neighbourhood are having wild dreams of secureness after acquiring some decades old Chinese LY 80 SAM which is based on 1980s tech Buk Missile System

They are praising it to be guaranteed protection against any attacks on their airspace.

LCA Tejas has KH 31P anti radiation missiles in it's arsenal. The KH 31 have speeds beyond Mach 4 and range of around 110 km. Being Anti Radiation missile, It's seeker feeds on enemy SAM's radar. Whenever enemy SAM's radar is on and is searching for targets. It's waves are sensed by the seeker of KH 31 and KH 31 finds the source of these waves.

The missile then with speeds reaching Mach 4 hit the enemy radar. The maximum range of LY 80 SAM is 40 km. So even if very normal conditions are considered and Tejas launches KH 31 from 40 KMs away. It will take it few seconds to home in and destroy the target.

Once the radar is gone. The missiles in enemy SAMs arsenal are sitting ducks.

Some comedy from Pakistanis


Su-30MKI has got even bigger radiation hunters- Kh-31P and Kh-58U. Kh-58U has lock-on-after-launch feature and has a range of 250 km so only god can bless those Pak SAM batteries in case of conflict :bounce::bounce:

 

[rohit b3]

S Jha says 123 Tejas
A Shukla says 103 Tejas.
So what is the actual figure?

 

[Prashant12]

S Jha says 123 Tejas
A Shukla says 103 Tejas.
So what is the actual figure?

20 IOC
20 FOC
83 MK1A

Total = 123 Tejas MK/MK1A

 

[TPFscopes]

By 2020 Su-30MKI manufacturing line will be closed and then the line will be used for the overhauling of
Su-30mki.
View attachment 19009
I think FGFA will have new line because all the manufacturing methods employed in fifth generation are very different from present.

Su-30MKI line will churn our FGFAs in future. It is not going to shut down.

As of now (February'17), Nasik production line has a queue for only 61 Su-30MKIs. And probably all su-30mki will be delivered by mid 2020.

One of my friend at HAL, Nasik told me that officials are engaged to plan the modification of the facility for FGFA Production but nothing on Ground till now.

 

[TPFscopes]

Pakistan has inducted LY-80 LOMADS Air Defence System but HAL Tejas ain't give a shit to it =)

Many people in our neighbourhood are having wild dreams of secureness after acquiring some decades old Chinese LY 80 SAM which is based on 1980s tech Buk Missile System

They are praising it to be guaranteed protection against any attacks on their airspace.

LCA Tejas has KH 31P anti radiation missiles in it's arsenal. The KH 31 have speeds beyond Mach 4 and range of around 110 km. Being Anti Radiation missile, It's seeker feeds on enemy SAM's radar. Whenever enemy SAM's radar is on and is searching for targets. It's waves are sensed by the seeker of KH 31 and KH 31 finds the source of these waves.

The missile then with speeds reaching Mach 4 hit the enemy radar. The maximum range of LY 80 SAM is 40 km. So even if very normal conditions are considered and Tejas launches KH 31 from 40 KMs away. It will take it few seconds to home in and destroy the target.

Once the radar is gone. The missiles in enemy SAMs arsenal are sitting ducks.

Some comedy from Pakistanis


Su-30MKI has got even bigger radiation hunters- Kh-31P and Kh-58U. Kh-58U has lock-on-after-launch feature and has a range of 250 km so only god can bless those Pak SAM batteries in case of conflict :bounce::bounce:

PAF don't have enough number of LY-80 to put them everywhere. Them main of them is to protect HVTs like AFBs, ammunition storages, Nuclear setups etc.
Once detected , it can be easily destroyed by using guided PINAKA .

 

[IndianHawk]

lol bro, "top heavy" is some pure propoganda spread by the likes of SAAB and Lockhead Martin.

It's not propaganda . Heavy twin engine fighters like su30 can only be maintained at limited number and only used for specific tasks such as air superiority. For regular patrol and ground attack or interception /point defense we need humble small planes like MIGs used to do.

Bulk of our air Force will consist of single engine fighters for decades to come as they are cheaper to fly and take much less time and effort to maintainance.

The propaganda part is to malign LCA for that role which we must fight tooth and nail.

 

[TPFscopes]

S Jha says 123 Tejas
A Shukla says 103 Tejas.
So what is the actual figure?

Ajai Shukla also skips 20 LCA (IOC) while preparing its production plan table for its blog.

 

[IndianHawk]

The reason I say ‘legacy’ is because that number, defined many decades ago, doesn’t quite take into account higher performance jets eroding the need for larger numbers. You’re inviting problems if the planning-related bean count involves both MiG-21s and Su-30MkIs in the same sweep. It’s a bit of slippery slope,” he says, arguing that the ‘no replacement for numbers’ theory has some good arguments, but many bad ones — not least inventory and cost.

This is exactly what I have been crying on various threads on the forum. We once planned for 42 squadrons depending upon capabilities of fighters available at that time. Migs and jags and mirage.etc.

But today we are inducting su30, rafale and LCA and planning to go for FGFA soon.

While earlier planes had dedicated roles today's fighters are multirole with more range , more payload and more technical features.

So logically we can do with less than 42 planned squadron.

We are already fourth largest airforce in the world. The top 3 USA , Russia and China . Other so called rich nation maintain a tiny airforce in comparison .

USA can afford thousands of planes as it's immensely rich + build everything itself.
China can afford as it's also rich + build most itself although low quality + most of the fleet is still obsolete jets.

Russia can afford because it builds everything itself + earns money from exports.

How do we afford so many aircrafts. There is no way unless we go indegenious. LCA must come in huge numbers otherwise we will bleed money to buy shiny foreign toys forever .

This is madness to try and maintain fourth largest airforce in the world with mostly imported jets. Most of our jets will have to very very cheap unless we become as rich as USA / china or as self sufficient in aviation as Russia.

 

[Superdefender]

This is exactly what I have been crying on various threads on the forum. We once planned for 42 squadrons depending upon capabilities of fighters available at that time. Migs and jags and mirage.etc.

But today we are inducting su30, rafale and LCA and planning to go for FGFA soon.

While earlier planes had dedicated roles today's fighters are multirole with more range , more payload and more technical features.

So logically we can do with less than 42 planned squadron.

We are already fourth largest airforce in the world. The top 3 USA , Russia and China . Other so called rich nation maintain a tiny airforce in comparison .

USA can afford thousands of planes as it's immensely rich + build everything itself.
China can afford as it's also rich + build most itself although low quality + most of the fleet is still obsolete jets.

Russia can afford because it builds everything itself + earns money from exports.

How do we afford so many aircrafts. There is no way unless we go indegenious. LCA must come in huge numbers otherwise we will bleed money to buy shiny foreign toys forever .

This is madness to try and maintain fourth largest airforce in the world with mostly imported jets. Most of our jets will have to very very cheap unless we become as rich as USA / china or as self sufficient in aviation as Russia.

Yes, The no. 42 is now a scare mongering figure to keep on procuring fighters. See, The new AESA equipped Jaguar is now equivalent to three vintage jaguars or two 90's jaguars. We just have to replace the obsolete birds with new quality ones. I think the fig. should be 32-34 squadrons. The extra sqdns should be reserved like extra army personnel.

 

[abingdonboy]

This is exactly what I have been crying on various threads on the forum. We once planned for 42 squadrons depending upon capabilities of fighters available at that time. Migs and jags and mirage.etc.

But today we are inducting su30, rafale and LCA and planning to go for FGFA soon.

While earlier planes had dedicated roles today's fighters are multirole with more range , more payload and more technical features.

So logically we can do with less than 42 planned squadron.

We are already fourth largest airforce in the world. The top 3 USA , Russia and China . Other so called rich nation maintain a tiny airforce in comparison .

USA can afford thousands of planes as it's immensely rich + build everything itself.
China can afford as it's also rich + build most itself although low quality + most of the fleet is still obsolete jets.

Russia can afford because it builds everything itself + earns money from exports.

How do we afford so many aircrafts. There is no way unless we go indegenious. LCA must come in huge numbers otherwise we will bleed money to buy shiny foreign toys forever .

This is madness to try and maintain fourth largest airforce in the world with mostly imported jets. Most of our jets will have to very very cheap unless we become as rich as USA / china or as self sufficient in aviation as Russia.

I agree in part but mostly this logic is flawed bro.

Yes, 1 Rafale/MKI may be worth 4-5 MiG-21s but it isn't as though the enemy is standing still- the PLAAF specifically is expanding at break neck speed. The combined SQN strength of the PAF and PLAAF will be 70+ by 2025 and much of them will be 4.5+ gen fighters.


If India is serious abotu defending itself from a 2.5 front war AND being the net security provider for the region the current force levels simply are not good enough, if anything the sanctioned strength of 42 is not enough, there is talk it will be revised to 45 by 2025 and 50 by 2030 but the IAF really has to get on top of its procurement for this to happen, it needs to have at least 3 production lines churning (LCA, Rafale, MKI/FGFA) to get even close to this and of worry should be the fact that 3 fleets come to the end of their total service lives around 2030 (Mig-29s, M2Ks and DARIN 3 Jags)- that is about 150 jets that will need replacing in a short period of time. Let's hope the AMCA is ready by that time.

 

[abingdonboy]

By 2020 Su-30MKI manufacturing line will be closed and then the line will be used for the overhauling of
Su-30mki.
View attachment 19009
I think FGFA will have new line because all the manufacturing methods employed in fifth generation are very different from present.

The MKI overhaul facility is seperate to the production line, HAL Nasik has already begun overhauling the older IAF MKIs whilst continuing production of new MKIs:

http://www.firstpost.com/india/hal-hands-overhauled-su-30-mki-fighter-aircraft-iaf-2039035.html


There's no way the MKI production line is shutting before 2024/5.

 

[IndianHawk]

I agree in part but mostly this logic is flawed bro.

Yes, 1 Rafale/MKI may be worth 4-5 MiG-21s but it isn't as though the enemy is standing still- the PLAAF specifically is expanding at break neck speed. The combined SQN strength of the PAF and PLAAF will be 70+ by 2025 and much of them will be 4.5+ gen fighters.


If India is serious abotu defending itself from a 2.5 front war AND being the net security provider for the region the current force levels simply are not good enough, if anything the sanctioned strength of 42 is not enough, there is talk it will be revised to 45 by 2025 and 50 by 2030 but the IAF really has to get on top of its procurement for this to happen, it needs to have at least 3 production lines churning (LCA, Rafale, MKI/FGFA) to get even close to this and of worry should be the fact that 3 fleets come to the end of their total service lives around 2030 (Mig-29s, M2Ks and DARIN 3 Jags)- that is about 150 jets that will need replacing in a short period of time. Let's hope the AMCA is ready by that time.

There will be budget constraints bro! It's not just procurement of fighters but also infrastructure , training of piolets , salary of more personal. If iaf gets it's 42 squadrons it will probably need double the money on routine operational expenses that it needs now. Then planes will keep getting retired or upgraded. By2030 LCA will need to start mid life upgrade too.

So in order to procure , upgrade and maintain 42 squadrons iaf will probably need 3_4 times the budget it currently have ( without accounting for inflation).

Cost of next gen planes will keep increasing FGFA will cost 3 times more than su30mki. So if you replace it plane by plane your looking at 3 times more cost just to procure.

The only option for competition with plaaf is too grow economy above 10 % only then can we have budget to full fill required strength. Also LCA and LCA type planes will need to make up 15-20 SQ out of proposed 42 . Rafale , mirage can only be few Squadron planes.

Here is what I think is optimum after 2030
Su30mki 14-16 SQ( mid life upgraded )
FGFA 5-6 SQ(more on order, next gen in development)
LCA 7 Sq.
LCA mk2 or another single engine 5sq.
Rafale 4 sq (72total)
(Migs jags mirage all gone by now.)
Now that makes just 38-40sq at the most.
That too only in 203Os as FGFA will start induction only by 2025 .
Amca will just enter air Force maybe 5 sq will be ordered .

So LCA and other single engine (hopefully more LCA) will have to make up for 12+squadron .

Now look at the budget for this==
FGFA 108 ordered , 120-150 million a piece= 12-15 billion $
Rafale 72, 200 million a piece = 14 billion$
Su30mki 300 mid life upgrade == 30-50 million a piece ( mirage upgrade cost were 50 million unit that too in 2010s )
= 9-15 billion$
LCA 124 30-40 million a piece=
4-5billion
More LCA another single engine type 90 == 40-60 million a piece == 4-6billion $
And commitment for Amca = at least 100+ at 100-120 million each = 10-12 billion $.
Commit to mid life upgrade of LCA = 30million a piece= 124*30=3720= 4 billion $

Totaling up at mid range==65billion $$

Just for procurement and support infrastructure and mid life upgrades.atlest 55billion $ To be paid from now 2017- 2035 for that ( excluding Amca orders and LCA upgrade payment)

So in 18 years we need to spend almost 3 billion a year on buying and infra creation.

Now add operational expenditure per year that will too double or triple with increase in SQ strength. And compare how much iaf gets.

 

[abingdonboy]

There will be budget constraints bro! It's not just procurement of fighters but also infrastructure , training of piolets , salary of more personal. If iaf gets it's 42 squadrons it will probably need double the money on routine operational expenses that it needs now. Then planes will keep getting retired or upgraded. By2030 LCA will need to start mid life upgrade too.

So in order to procure , upgrade and maintain 42 squadrons iaf will probably need 3_4 times the budget it currently have ( without accounting for inflation).

Cost of next gen planes will keep increasing FGFA will cost 3 times more than su30mki. So if you replace it plane by plane your looking at 3 times more cost just to procure.

The only option for competition with plaaf is too grow economy above 10 % only then can we have budget to full fill required strength. Also LCA and LCA type planes will need to make up 15-20 SQ out of proposed 42 . Rafale , mirage can only be few Squadron planes.

Here is what I think is optimum after 2030
Su30mki 14-16 SQ( mid life upgraded )
FGFA 5-6 SQ(more on order, next gen in development)
LCA 7 Sq.
LCA mk2 or another single engine 5sq.
Rafale 4 sq (72total)
(Migs jags mirage all gone by now.)
Now that makes just 38-40sq at the most.
That too only in 203Os as FGFA will start induction only by 2025 .
Amca will just enter air Force maybe 5 sq will be ordered .

So LCA and other single engine (hopefully more LCA) will have to make up for 12+squadron .

Now look at the budget for this==
FGFA 108 ordered , 120-150 million a piece= 12-15 billion $
Rafale 72, 200 million a piece = 14 billion$
Su30mki 300 mid life upgrade == 30-50 million a piece ( mirage upgrade cost were 50 million unit that too in 2010s )
= 9-15 billion$
LCA 124 30-40 million a piece=
4-5billion
More LCA another single engine type 90 == 40-60 million a piece == 4-6billion $
And commitment for Amca = at least 100+ at 100-120 million each = 10-12 billion $.
Commit to mid life upgrade of LCA = 30million a piece= 124*30=3720= 4 billion $

Totaling up at mid range==65billion $$

Just for procurement and support infrastructure and mid life upgrades.atlest 55billion $ To be paid from now 2017- 2035 for that ( excluding Amca orders and LCA upgrade payment)

So in 18 years we need to spend almost 3 billion a year on buying and infra creation.

Now add operational expenditure per year that will too double or triple with increase in SQ strength. And compare how much iaf gets.

1) After 2018-19 the economy is going to pick up, right now it is growing at only 7%, another 1-2% will be added after 2018-19 easily.
2) Rafale is not 200m each, that is the cost inclusive of all training, infrastructure and customisations- the unit price the IAF is offered for the Rafale is arround $110m (around €85m- same as the French AF price).The marginal cost will fall substantially for the IAF for any fighter beyond the intial 36 ordered.
3) You fail to take into account the payback periods of large ticket deals- it is not a 100% upfront payment. In the Rafale's case it was 15% upfront and then installments over the course of 5-6 years. This will reduce the burden on the annual IAF CAPEX budget.

A nice analysis though bro but I'll stick to the fact that the SQN strength is going to be grow beyond 42 post 2027. But I really hope the GoI starts to address the dwindling allocation to the defence forces, since 2013-14 the spending (as a proportion of GDP) has gone from 2% to a historic low of 1.56% today.


It's absurd to ask the military to modernise with these restrictions plus given the increase in domestic defence production more defence spending would help stimulate the economy create jobs and further "make in India"

 

[rohit b3]

There will be budget constraints bro! It's not just procurement of fighters but also infrastructure , training of piolets , salary of more personal. If iaf gets it's 42 squadrons it will probably need double the money on routine operational expenses that it needs now. Then planes will keep getting retired or upgraded. By2030 LCA will need to start mid life upgrade too.

So in order to procure , upgrade and maintain 42 squadrons iaf will probably need 3_4 times the budget it currently have ( without accounting for inflation).

Cost of next gen planes will keep increasing FGFA will cost 3 times more than su30mki. So if you replace it plane by plane your looking at 3 times more cost just to procure.

The only option for competition with plaaf is too grow economy above 10 % only then can we have budget to full fill required strength. Also LCA and LCA type planes will need to make up 15-20 SQ out of proposed 42 . Rafale , mirage can only be few Squadron planes.

Here is what I think is optimum after 2030
Su30mki 14-16 SQ( mid life upgraded )
FGFA 5-6 SQ(more on order, next gen in development)
LCA 7 Sq.
LCA mk2 or another single engine 5sq.
Rafale 4 sq (72total)
(Migs jags mirage all gone by now.)
Now that makes just 38-40sq at the most.
That too only in 203Os as FGFA will start induction only by 2025 .
Amca will just enter air Force maybe 5 sq will be ordered .

So LCA and other single engine (hopefully more LCA) will have to make up for 12+squadron .

Now look at the budget for this==
FGFA 108 ordered , 120-150 million a piece= 12-15 billion $
Rafale 72, 200 million a piece = 14 billion$
Su30mki 300 mid life upgrade == 30-50 million a piece ( mirage upgrade cost were 50 million unit that too in 2010s )
= 9-15 billion$
LCA 124 30-40 million a piece=
4-5billion
More LCA another single engine type 90 == 40-60 million a piece == 4-6billion $
And commitment for Amca = at least 100+ at 100-120 million each = 10-12 billion $.
Commit to mid life upgrade of LCA = 30million a piece= 124*30=3720= 4 billion $

Totaling up at mid range==65billion $$

Just for procurement and support infrastructure and mid life upgrades.atlest 55billion $ To be paid from now 2017- 2035 for that ( excluding Amca orders and LCA upgrade payment)

So in 18 years we need to spend almost 3 billion a year on buying and infra creation.

Now add operational expenditure per year that will too double or triple with increase in SQ strength. And compare how much iaf gets.

Mig29 , Mirage2000 and probably the Jaguars will stay well into the mid/late 2030s. Jaguars could be replaced with the FGFA , however Mig29 and Mirage2000 will be replaced only with the AMCA.

 

[xeaaex]

The MKI overhaul facility is seperate to the production line, HAL Nasik has already begun overhauling the older IAF MKIs whilst continuing production of new MKIs:

http://www.firstpost.com/india/hal-hands-overhauled-su-30-mki-fighter-aircraft-iaf-2039035.html


There's no way the MKI production line is shutting before 2024/5.

There is no such thing as nasik, it's Nashik kindly correct the spelling.
Sorry for the off topic.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Tejas are replacing MIG-21/23/27 squadrons ..

Their will be a total of 14 squadrons in time to come, This is initial 123 ..

 

[IndianHawk]

You fail to take into account the payback periods of large ticket deals- it is not a 100% upfront payment. In the Rafale's case it was 15% upfront and then installments over the course of 5-6 years. This will reduce the burden on the annual IAF CAPEX budget.

I did took into account whatever has to be paid for from 2018-2035 . Upfront installments we have to pay all within this time frame.

Rafale is not 200m each, that is the cost inclusive of all training, infrastructure and customisations- the unit price the IAF is offered for the Rafale is arround $110m (around €85m- same as the French AF price).

Yes I included cost of infra set up for new type of fighters.

dwindling allocation to the defence forces, since 2013-14 the spending (as a proportion of GDP) has gone from 2% to a historic low of 1.56% today.

That is because armed forces have not been able to spend the amount allocated in previous years. Due to faulty lengthy procurement process .

No point giving more money if they can't spend it on time. Although recently a defense panel asked govt to not take any money back even if not spend in given financial year.

Tejas are replacing MIG-21/23/27 squadrons ..

Their will be a total of 14 squadrons in time to come, This is initial 123 ..

These 123 LCA are scheduled to be delivered by 2023-24. While MIGs 21/23/27 will have to be retired by 2022.

While I share your optimism. The timelines simply don't match.