ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[Rahul Singh]

The OneIndia report above is by Ananth Krishnan who has by now developed a reputation for not colouring his own reportage by his personal prejudices and hopes. I had put an unattributed quote from him only because I have faith in his reportage.

Brahmos-Mini is going to be 6 meter 1.5 tons, same as Nirbhay currently is. That is why they are saying that Nirbhay as it is can be mated to Su-30MKI. But to mate a Nirbhay to LCA the DRDO is reported to have claimed a need to shorten the Nirbhay by 25% ie. to a length of 4.5 meters. To swap a Tejas+Nirbhay variant for this Brahmos+Tejas variant, you will obviously have to reduce the Brahmos size to 4.5 meters too. But we already know Brahmos Mini is 6 meter.

The NLCA even in the Mk-2 version will have to use its excess capacity for extra internal fuel and not for heavier pylon load. So my suspicion is that they will persist with 1200 kg pylons or even if they re-design they will take it only till around 1500 kg. But that still does not solve the volume problem even for NLCA Mk-2.

However if you still insist in mating a high supersonic missile to later Tejas variants then you must look at changing Brahmos into a XASM-3 type missile (which will be a major major re-design effort):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XASM-3
Weight 900 kg (2,000 lb)[1]
Length 5.25 m (17.2 ft)[1]
Engine Integral Rocket Ramjet[1]
Operational range 150 km (81 nmi; 93 mi)
Speed Mach 3

Your 2 Brahmos Minis on one NLCA (presumably Mk-2) seems too much of an outlier to me. That will cut down the range of NLCA very badly and make NLCA shine on the radar like Bappi Lahari. You are asking for major trouble.

In any case LCA has only enough range to make itself felt at the borders. To hit beyond that you must rely on longer ranged Sukhois. Think about loiter times, ingress and egress speeds and altitudes, self protection capabilities, survivability etc.

An LCA with a stealthy Nirbhay variant is something we should look at seriously. Both to give LCA penetration capabilities and in general to screw the opponent from multiple directions. Something that Su-30MKI with Brahmos Mini will not be able to do, because the combo is going to be quite expensive for a real war.

No no, i get your point. But obvious question is why develop a dedicated all new air launched anti-ship missile when Navy's principal carrier born fighter (NLCA MK-2) can't carry it? I mean what could be logic behind mating it with Mig-29Ks but not NLCA MK-2s? I am sure Navy which will always be largest user of Brahmos will look into it.

NLCA is longer than MK-1 and with more load carrying capability it can carry more and yet go farther. Below is the pic of FC-1 carrying C-802A which is a +6m long missile. Considering NLCA is only 0.5 m shorter than FC-1 i don't think length is a problem.

 

[Yumdoot]

@Rahul Singh,

I am also not denying your hopes. Being an Indian I would love to see the NLCA Mk-2 with Brahmos-NG. I actually feel quite confident arguing in favour of such a combination.

What I still do not have confidence in is that the Indian Navy will be able to mate NLCA Mk-2 with Brahmos-NG and then willing have it fly from its carriers. Land based flying by Indian Navy is an altogether different topic and even two Brahmos-NG should be doable. But on carrier at the most 1 Brahmos-NG looks believable (or 2 of the XASM-3 which weigh in only slightly heavier than the C-802s). In fact unlike you I don't see NLCA Mk-2 as the principle naval fighter either. It sounds too maximalist to me.

Look at it like this:
1> We have 45 Mig-29K already capable of carrying Brahmos-NG, as and when it comes. The count is the same (IOW sufficient), as the SFC Sukhois which come in at 42 specifically meant for carrying Brahmos-A (2.5 tons / 9 meters).

2> Mig-29K is a 17.3 meter long plane with 2 engines of 88KN each. NLCA will be a 14.56 meter plane with 1 engine of 98KN.

3> My guess is there is a scaling constraint at work here. Su-30MKI (245KN) which can carry only 1 Brahmos-A will be able to take 3 Brahmos-NG. While the MRCA capability that comes in with Mig-29K (166 KN) will be able to manage only 2 of the Brahmos-NG. So there may actually be scope for carrying 1 Brahmos-NG with a NLCA Mk-2, provided off course the Brahmos-NG does not turn out too long for NLCA Mk-2. Currently, I have no view if the Brahmos-NG is too long or not for that purpose.

In such a situation we have to look at other aspects too. Like for example the limitations of Brahmos itself. There actually are aspects of Nirbhay that are going to make it just as lucrative a weapon, probably even superior in some crucial ways (not yet acknowledged in popular folklore). Though that would be an altogether new topic.

 

[ersakthivel]

#TejasSquadron Gp Capt Ranga says #Tejas generation ahead of Mirage, MiG. "You can't compare apples with oranges."

Tejas Generation ahead of Mirage !!

View attachment 9188

A slap in the face for rajat pandit types!!

 

[tejas warrior]

A slap in the face for rajat pandit types!!

Well said sir, let me check his reports on this.. I have marked him offensive on Twitter :biggrin2:

 

[tejas warrior]

#TejasSquadron A cleric offers prayers before #Tejas induction ceremony today.
Photo: @sonicshots007 https://t.co/gUTjS6KLlV

LCA Tejas squadron's first CO Group Captain 'Ranga' Rangachari gets into one his first 2 jets today. #GoTejas https://t.co/9trFEPWThK

 

[ersakthivel]

Well said sir, let me check his reports on this.. I have marked him offensive on Twitter :biggrin2:

Expect his ilk to lay quiet for a while,

With group captain Ranga openly saying that tejas a generation ahead of mirage, migs, their TOIlet paper "research articles " on tejas will be permanently discontinued from now on!!!

DRDO has scored a triple hit this fortnight with Varunastra, MRSAM, tejas induction,

SO our defence "ANAL"ysts (all import lobby paid #Agustapatrakars) in MSM will lay quiet for a while!!!


http://www.stratpost.com/naval-lca-face-reckoning-as-navy-mulls-catobar-fighters
by Saurab Joshi

Seeing the writing on the wall our defence "ANALystst" have quietly shifted gear & now saying that tejas mk2 is irrelevant even for navy!!!

With such presstitute as journalists I dont know how a real democracy can function in india!!! Continuously misinform people to support imported junks , stifle indian R&D in defence , bad mouth DRDO, what else you want??

if not for Modi appointee ,manohar parrikar , they could easily have killed tejas mk1A, with just 40 orders for tejas mk1, and buried it like they did on marut.

But Modi after seeing their strength relieved jaitley from DM post and plucked a true IITian (not a fake like Kejriwal) manohar parrikar to expose their hand and breath new life into tejas serial production line with tejas mk1 A.

he had to organize 13 meetings over 2 years timeframe to bring IAF top guys kicking & screaming into tejas mk1 A program is an eye opener for the depth of import lobby influence!!

I mean barring 200 odd su 30 MKIs all other fighters in IAF are below even mk1 level when it comes to RSS fly by wire airframe , HMDS enabled python, 120 Km range BVR missile, swing role capability,with low RCS,

SO how come IAF doesn't need kick ass tejas mk2 is peddled is astonishing.
We can see what kind of scandal the 40 million mirage 2000 upgrade is by simply taking a look at Ranga's comment on Tejas,



How can an IAF ,70 percent of whose fleet is mostly obsoleted , near retirement fighters, "feign" disinterest in tejas mk2 is beyond belief for me!!!

barring 36 rafales no new purchase is planned for IAF right now, So why is IAF suicidal in insisting that they wont fund tejas mk2??

That too when the mandate for IAF is to increase their fighter squadrons to 45 plus to face a two side war in immediate future, SO besides 20 su-30 MKis & 3 Mig-29s IAF squadrons IAF has no fighter worth its name to face the combined PAF-PLAF fleet, why they are putting tejas mk2 on back burner?

On what basis these defence ANALysts toe the stupid IAF line of "we have no immediate interest in tejas m k2 " is also beyond belief!!

 

[brahmastra11]

https://www.facebook.com/parrikar.manohar/

 

[ersakthivel]

@Rahul Singh,

I am also not denying your hopes. Being an Indian I would love to see the NLCA Mk-2 with Brahmos-NG. I actually feel quite confident arguing in favour of such a combination.

What I still do not have confidence in is that the Indian Navy will be able to mate NLCA Mk-2 with Brahmos-NG and then willing have it fly from its carriers. Land based flying by Indian Navy is an altogether different topic and even two Brahmos-NG should be doable. But on carrier at the most 1 Brahmos-NG looks believable (or 2 of the XASM-3 which weigh in only slightly heavier than the C-802s). In fact unlike you I don't see NLCA Mk-2 as the principle naval fighter either. It sounds too maximalist to me.

Look at it like this:
1> We have 45 Mig-29K already capable of carrying Brahmos-NG, as and when it comes. The count is the same (IOW sufficient), as the SFC Sukhois which come in at 42 specifically meant for carrying Brahmos-A (2.5 tons / 9 meters).

2> Mig-29K is a 17.3 meter long plane with 2 engines of 88KN each. NLCA will be a 14.56 meter plane with 1 engine of 98KN.

3> My guess is there is a scaling constraint at work here. Su-30MKI (245KN) which can carry only 1 Brahmos-A will be able to take 3 Brahmos-NG. While the MRCA capability that comes in with Mig-29K (166 KN) will be able to manage only 2 of the Brahmos-NG. So there may actually be scope for carrying 1 Brahmos-NG with a NLCA Mk-2, provided off course the Brahmos-NG does not turn out too long for NLCA Mk-2. Currently, I have no view if the Brahmos-NG is too long or not for that purpose.

In such a situation we have to look at other aspects too. Like for example the limitations of Brahmos itself. There actually are aspects of Nirbhay that are going to make it just as lucrative a weapon, probably even superior in some crucial ways (not yet acknowledged in popular folklore). Though that would be an altogether new topic.

For a tejas capable brahmos to be developed manohar parrikar must do some plain talking to IAF & ask them to plan for 200 tejas mk2 immediately, like he did on tejas mk1A.

That will set the ball rolling on brahmos capable tejas mk2

 

[tejas warrior]

For a tejas capable brahmos to be developed manohar parrikar must do some plain talking to IAF & ask them to plan for 200 tejas mk2 immediately, like he did on tejas mk1A.

That will set the ball rolling on brahmos capable tejas mk2

I would say let Tejas work primarily as an Interceptor. MK1 > MK1A > NLCA > MK2.
So, it can always fullfil single engine requirements in large numbers.

Parallel AMCA development must start which can be used for Brahmos/Birthday.

 

[ersakthivel]

http://www.hindustantimes.com/analy...e-two-later/story-A2AMumatVpIZGFviSoCr6K.html

this is another stupid load of BS,

Why shouldn't Air marshal (retd) kapil Kaki send tejas mk1, which has a RSS fly by wire agile handling, HMDS enabled R73 E, python, Derby combo , lowest frontal RCS in IAF to face combat is beyond belief!!

And the journo doesnt even know to raise this question shows that our newspapers are staffed by totally unqualified people & run in total unprofessional manner by their promoters!!

I mean other than su-30 MKi, & Mig-29 no fighter in IAF has these capabilities , SO why Former Air Vice-Marshal Kapil Kak couldn't trust IAF group captain ranga's words that Tejas is a generation ahead of migs & mirages??

"Former Air Vice-Marshal Kapil Kak, based on conversation with pilots who have flown both the JF-17 and the Tejas, says, “The Tejas is far superior to the JF-17.” However, it is questionable if the Tejas is upto scratch when it comes to the Chinese J-10. The latter has received good reviews even in the US. Ashley Tellis of the Carnegie Endowment, in a report on the Indian Air Force, notes the J-10 has “turned out to be an impressive lightweight fourth-generation combatant.” And it is far ahead on the development curve than Tejas."

This comment is typical of IAF retirees when it comes to tejas!!!

Asley Tellis doesnt know shit when it comes to technicals of tejas, He is just a think tank head who peddles stuff which tends to favor US interest!!!

Ashely tellis, kapil kak, the journo who did the interview doesn't even know a set of basic facts,

1. tejas has a far lower RCS that J-10 , meaning tejas will track, lock & fire its BVR on J-10 well before J-10 can ever find it!!

2.tejas has 4 channel full digital fly by wire RSS airframe which is not the case with J-10, a design generation behind tejas!!

3. Tejas is to be equipped with ASEA RWR, which can mask its presence to enemy radar by giving stealthy false echoes, in the same manner as rafale,

4, last but not the least tejas has far higher TWR than J10, J-10 cant take off with decent loads from high Himalayn air fields of Tibet and it is being designated as a bomber and replaced with soviet flanker copy cats in Tibet!!. But tejas can take off from leh with decent loads from day one of its operations!!

That is the level of defence jourANALism that is being on display , ironically on the induction date of tejas!!!

"And against F-16 tejas is dead meat"!!!???!

this is what import lobby journos will keep repeating on & on!!!

You will know the truth when tejas takes part in exercises!!!

Just remember the Typhoon Vs Sukhoi & F-15 Vs Su-30 MKi exercises!!!

Accordiong to retd greek airforce chief who operated both Mirages & F-16s , Mirage always has the first chance to kill F-16 in a dog fight!!

Now Gr Captain ranga, clearly says tejas is a generation ahead of mirage!!

Former IAf gr captain % chief test pilot of Tejas Suneeth krishna openly said that tejas "even in mk1"is at least on par with Upgraded IAf mirage-2000,

SO why is tejas a dead meat against F-16?? when "subsonic" marut HF 24 scored combat kills against US F-104 star fighter?

Top speeds are irrelevant in air combat, because a fighter flying at top speed can consume most of its fuel in minutes, it cant out turn or out run a missile in top speed,

What matters is turn rates at corner velocity , a speed far below top speed, which was displayed by tejas in bahrain airshow,

tejas did complete a vertical loop in bahrain airshow in 17 to 18 seconds, more than enough for any combat with F-16.

Also tejas has far lower RCS, meaning it will be the first one to fire its BVR missile in cl,ose combat.

SO why tejas is dead meat against F-16?

 

[hit&run]

#TejasSquadron A cleric offers prayers before #Tejas induction ceremony today.
Photo: @sonicshots007 https://t.co/gUTjS6KLlV

View attachment 9189

LCA Tejas squadron's first CO Group Captain 'Ranga' Rangachari gets into one his first 2 jets today. #GoTejas https://t.co/9trFEPWThK

View attachment 9190

All four religions were present to offer their prayers. Proud.....

Glad many projects that were in limbo to scam the nation are now seeing induction.

Can vote this government for many next terms.

 

[tejas warrior]

Tejas is best aircraft I’ve flown so far: Group Capt Ranga

Published: July 1 2016, 18:15 [IST]
Written by: OneIndia Defence Bureau

Bengaluru, July 1: The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) got the biggest stamp of approval from the Indian Air Force (IAF) when the first Commanding Officer of No 45 Tejas Squadron -- Flying Daggers - showered praise on the home-grown fighter.Interacting with the media at Aircraft Systems Testing Establishment (ASTE), after a brief display of Tejas, Group Captain Madhav Rangachari (Ranga) said: "This is easily the best aircraft I have flown. It is a pilot's delight." Ranga was virtually mobbed by the media soon after he walked out of the fighter. To a query from OneIndia on being the first person to head the Tejas Squadron, Ranga said he is proud to be associated with the project."I am really proud of being part of the Make in India mission. Happy to fly Tejas in IAF colours," Ranga said.Terming the fighter as an 'excellent aircraft,' Ranga hoped that the Squadron would get the reaming platforms at the earliest from HAL."Tejas is best in its class with excellent onboard systems and avionics," said the ace pilot hailing from Srirangam in Tamil Nadu.He said the avionics in Tejas is leagues ahead when compared to other contemporary aircraft of its kind in the world. To a specific query on how best was Tejas when compared to the MiGs and Mirages, Ranga said: "Generation ahead of Mirage, MiG. You can't compare apples with oranges."He said the induction of Tejas is a stepping stone in the history of India.With around 3000 flying hours to his kitty, Ranga has flown the Mirage 2000 and MiG-21 before getting posted to ASTE."I have been flying Tejas for the past one year now and it has a lot of potential. It will surely do a great job for the IAF," the pilot said.OneIndia News

 

[Yumdoot]

@ersakthivel

J-10 is also a RSS-FBW plane and is already flying from Tibetan platues most of which are already 3 km plus often 4+ km runways to counter the higher wing loading of J-10. J-10 too will have AESA like the LCA in future. They could actually be ahead on the growth path as Ashley Tellis and Shriman Kak are saying. But the fact that both of them are hiding by not even admitting is that for the most part the delays are caused by the respective teams they are playing for.

Personally I am very appreciative of the Chinese attitude towards their domestic projects and J-10 is something we should closely monitor because it represents the possible growth path for LCA too (compared to the hair brained ideas like twin engined LCA that were being talked about an year back).

 

[Saichand K]

I think ADA should also focus on multiple ejector rack (MER) and conformal fuel tank for Tejas Mk-1.

 

[ersakthivel]

@ersakthivel

J-10 is also a RSS-FBW plane and is already flying from Tibetan platues most of which are already 3 km plus often 4+ km runways to counter the higher wing loading of J-10. J-10 too will have AESA like the LCA in future. They could actually be ahead on the growth path as Ashley Tellis and Shriman Kak are saying. But the fact that both of them are hiding by not even admitting is that for the most part the delays are caused by the respective teams they are playing for.

Personally I am very appreciative of the Chinese attitude towards their domestic projects and J-10 is something we should closely monitor because it represents the possible growth path for LCA too (compared to the hair brained ideas like twin engined LCA that were being talked about an year back).

Later versions of F-16 are not RSS , and reverted to stable flight profiles because of extra weight of avionics & weapon loads with even way higher thrust engines,

SO I doubt whether J-10 can be a RSS fighter while it has way higher empty weight than even the F-16!!

It has faced so many crashes in prototypes & in service with faulty flight control law issues,

J-10 , JF-17 are patently wrong way of developing fighters, they are in effect monumental waste of time of chinese design enginners!!

3 Km or $ km runways doesnt matter, You cant take off with meaningful loads if you have high wing loadings in the high altitude rarefied himalayn airfields,

Even much higher powered F-16s failed in Leh test leg of MMRCA, SO I see no reason for any "imagined shortfall" of tejas vs J-10,

Even the F-16 with way lower emtpy weight cant out turn tejas in high himalayn altitudes, which is what the primary theater of operations in any himalayan war, higher turn rates at lower altitude sea level is meaningless in these areas!!

So imagine how poorly J-10 will fare on these Himalayan heights versus tejas which cleared its high altitude leh test with meaningful loads with no issues, no fighter in IAf is leh capable from day one of operation other than tejas!!!

PLAF has silently admitted that J-10 is a flop in tibet & is replacing it with soviet flanker copy cats was the last piece of news heard on the "Ashely tellis" rated J-10!!!

Tejas mk1 A is also getting ASEA and all the tejas 40 mk1s which are being fitted with 2032 can be upgraded with ASEA later,

ASEA or no ASEA J-10 was not built with minimal radar signature like tejas, rafale & typhoon, SO tejas will always be the first to find, track, lock & fire a BVR missile in combat with J-10s,

tejas has even higher radome dia that 1000 crore rafales,

SO the combination of low RCS, higher radome dia makes tejas as deadly a fighter in its class as any!!!

 

[R.parida]

Beautiful lines from tarmak007
#TejasSquadron

Thank You #India for standing by me.
For believing me.
I'm late, but I'm light.
I'm lethal.
I'm #Tejas

 

[Shadow]

...............................................

 

[ersakthivel]

other than mig-29 , tejas has the best TWR in IAF, What is important is the combination of thrust to weight ratio & low wing loading, tejas has the lowest wing loading for any fighter in the world,

It means it has more lift force per Kg of its weight, combine it with the class leading Relaxed Static Stability all digital fly by wire flight control, for excellent agility at corner speeds & high Instantaneous turn rates to get the best use for its HMDS enabled high off bore missile pack of R 73 E & python, for first lock & fire solution in any dog fight,which is the hall mark of any modern 4+ fighter plane.

Thats why even though mirage has much lower thrust to weight ratio than F-16 and even tejas mk1 it is considered equal to F-16 because it has way higher wing area(low wing loading) than F-16.

Tejas mk1 excels mirage 2000 in all 7 critical areas of air combat
1. wing loading,
2. thrust to weight ratio,
3. radar + BVR missile range,
4. DRFM based ASEA RWR,
5.lower clean config frontal RCS
6. All digital 4 channel fly by wire compared to analog on mirage-2000
7. HMDS enabled close combat high off bore R 73 E7 python combo deadliest no escape weapon combo in close combat

Why?

because in high altitude Himalayan conditions higer lift force is needed to lift meaningful loads & be an agile fighter,

this spec was as per IAF's operational needs where it faces two heavy adversaries over high altitude Himalayn air space,

No other fighter maker in this world has such needs, So in effect tejas was built for fighting conditions of IAF.

Even the thrust to weight ratio will come closer to that of rafale or typhoon or F-16 in mk2, Ironically IAF is not publicly saying anything on the burning need for IAF tejas mk2, Only navy is intereseted in it!!!

 

[ersakthivel]

Another "torturous" piece by rajat pandit,
A few questions though,

he says only tejas mk1A can fire BVR missiles that too only from 2020!!

Then what was Derby fired by tejas mk1 before induction into IAF/ A WVR missile? israelis will laugh their ass off if they see this piece!!

And rajat pandit gracefully says that as of now tejas mk1 can fire a few missiles & deliver munitions(I think that was all a fighter is supposed to do or should it also credit a few K rupees every time it takes off into #Agustapatrakar accounts??? I dont know!!!)

Does rajat pandit know that "these missiles" also include derby ? So why such convoluted lying even after IAF group captain ranga has clearly slapped the faces of these defence ANAlysts?

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Time to end Pakistani trolls....
We have tejas in IAF

Sent from my ASUS_Z00LD using Tapatalk

Time to shut up french dasault rafale lobby