ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[power_monger]

I never never ever be against Tejas but ADA DRDO are surely killing it.

I can definitely understand your concerns.unfortunatly we do not have any other way other than to continue supporting the program as we do not have any kind of parallel infrastructure to build air-crafts.

This is like "Having to put up with the prostitute because she just happens to be only women around". Hopefully(pessimistically) we see quick results in comming days.

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

India to Buy 36 Rafale Jets rest Tejas mk-2 says Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar

As the number of fighter squadrons steadily dip, India will make do with the 36 Rafale Fighters, three squadrons of the Russian Made SU-30MKI that are in the making and make up the rest of the numbers with the indigenously made Tejas (Mark-II).

“We plan to induct as many as a Tejas Mark-II to make up the number” a senior Indian Air Force (IAF) official told NDTV.

The Indian Air Force requires 42-44 Squadrons of fighters to deal with Western and Northern borders. It has only about 34 Squadrons of fighters. And, it will have to retire about 14 squadrons of Mi-G-21 and MiG-27 fighters by 2022.

Earlier, speaking to Press Trust of India, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said that India is unlikely to increase the number of Rafale fighters. The defence minister said that French-made jets were “way too expensive.”

The Modi government has also questioned UPA for clearing the French fighter deal which was likely to cost the nation over USD 20 Billion.

“I also feel like having a BMW and Mercedes. But I don’t because I can’t afford it. First I can’t afford it and second I don’t need it. So, 126 Rafales was economically unviable. It was not required,” Mr Parrikar said.

The proposal to buy 126 French Fighters fell through after nearly decade-long negotiations between India and France. Faced with the dipping number of Fighters, India decided to buy 36 “ready-to-fly” fighters instead of trying to acquire technology from Dassault and make it in India.

“It is a very pragmatic decision considering the shortfall and capability gaps” a senior IAF officer told NDTV.


http://idrw.org/india-to-buy-36-rafale-jets-rest-tejas-mk-2-says-defence-minister-manohar-parrikar/

 

[Pulkit]

To replace Mig-21 we need to wait until 2025.
How many planes can HAL manufacture in a year?
16-panes a year 20 years to replace mig's means 2045.
Why can't hal outsource tejas to increase the output

16 planes is very optimistic 12-14 will be realistic.
Around 200 aircrafts needs to be replaced along with additional 150 to get the level of 42-44 squad minus the accidental losses.
this 350-400 figure will be split in this way as per my knowledge:
1)36 Rafale.
2)Remaining SU 30 MKI in production
3)40 Tejas MK1
4)144 FGFA
5)Remaining Tejas MK2(as many as required)

Once the Tejas MK2 is ready (I fear cannot even commit the year) we will be having one assembly line by HAL and one by a private org. That will mean close to 25 being built in an year(not from the very first year). therefore it will take around 8-10 years to get the desired numbers which as per my estimates will only be by 2035 given the rate and serious ness of the working body.

 

[tharun]

16 planes is very optimistic 12-14 will be realistic.
Around 200 aircrafts needs to be replaced along with additional 150 to get the level of 42-44 squad minus the accidental losses.
this 350-400 figure will be split in this way as per my knowledge:
1)36 Rafale.
2)Remaining SU 30 MKI in production
3)40 Tejas MK1
4)144 FGFA
5)Remaining Tejas MK2(as many as required)

Once the Tejas MK2 is ready (I fear cannot even commit the year) we will be having one assembly line by HAL and one by a private org. That will mean close to 25 being built in an year(not from the very first year). therefore it will take around 8-10 years to get the desired numbers which as per my estimates will only be by 2035 given the rate and serious ness of the working body.

How planes per squad?
How many planes did our airforce have?

 

[Pulkit]

How planes per squad?
How many planes did our airforce have?

I did you get your query Kindly elaborate.
How many planes Per squad?Kindly try google.

We are down to 34 squad as per the latest reports and will be retiring close to 12 squad for Migs by 2022.

 

[Pulkit]

I can definitely understand your concerns.unfortunatly we do not have any other way other than to continue supporting the program as we do not have any kind of parallel infrastructure to build air-crafts.

This is like "Having to put up with the prostitute because she just happens to be only women around". Hopefully(pessimistically) we see quick results in comming days.

We need to set priorities and allocate responsibilities .
ADA HAL can do it they have the base where are we lacking is and sadly
as our PM said once in last 12 months
"Chalta hai attitude" of the top elite of these organizations.

Give the same (ADA HAL Completely 100% ownership) in the current position to private company and set a deadline they will get the job done out of these non so serious about work people .

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Ashton Carter to face Indian demand for engine technology

By Ajai Shukla

Business Standard, 1st June 15

Yet, the US technology control regime, which guards cutting-edge knowhow tightly, continues to treat jet engine technologies as sensitive and commercially valuable. Washington readily sold India the GE-404IN engine that powers the Tejas Mark I with 83 KiloNewtons (KN) of thrust. It also permitted the more advanced F-414 --- which will provide the Tejas Mark II with 90 KN of thrust --- to be built near Pune after GE won a contract for 99 engines in September 2010.

But India wants cutting-edge. Defence ministry sources say they want GE to partner the DRDO in upgrading the F-414 to deliver 110 KN of peak power to the AMCA, allowing its twin-engines to deliver 220 KN of peak power to the fighter.

Indian officials see advantage in dealing with GE through government-to-government channels, a more flexible and faster mechanism. There is also benefit in having GE as a single partner for Tejas Mark I, Mark II and AMCA engines, which GE keenly wants too. Even so, Indian officials say that US government foot-dragging might leave no choice but an international tender that brings in European companies like Snecma and Eurojet.

Carter played a leading role in establishing the DTTI when then Defence Secretary Leon Panetta proposed it in June 2012. He co-chaired the DTTI along with former National Security Advisor Shivshankar Menon. The DTTI is now cho-chaired by Frank Kendall, an Under Secretary of Defence; and India’s defence secretary, G Mohan Kumar.

Source : http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2015/06/ashton-carter-to-face-indian-demand-for.html

 

[mahesh]

The parachute in the tail to control wild spin, is it still there in MK1 or even for Tejas mark II ? or is it replaced by the tail radar ?

 

[Tejas De Future]

@Kunal Biswas, I have been reading this blog from long time. I found it very interesting and knowledge gaining.

Now after reading for some time my curiosity has grown. I want to ask few questions and request your precious time to answer.

I want to know is the kaveri engine comparable to GE 404? If yes then why do we not incorporate this in LCA MK 1 /P?
If no then why cannot we increase the percentage of composites to use the homegrown Kaveri engine, which can be exported to friendly countries with a feasible price tag. We can even ask private sector to be the lead integrator and make a few hundred jets with all improvement coming in versions. This way we can achieve the make in India target. Let the private sector market the product and provide MRO services.

 

[myana]

The parachute in the tail to control wild spin, is it still there in MK1 or even for Tejas mark II ? or is it replaced by the tail radar ?

Friend parachute in the tail is for braking ie to decrease the stoppage distance after landing not for wild spins are whatever you think.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The Kaveri engine is near preform ace of GE-404 but has more weight, So it cannot be mounted on production series Aircrafts..

As of now Kaveri engine project is ceased, The knowledge gained from project will be implemented on a new project probably call Ganga ..

I believe private sector has lot of potential, It is upto Government to make sure that Private sector get its share in defense manufacturing ..

----------

Its a pleasure to answer your questions ..

@Kunal Biswas, I have been reading this blog from long time. I found it very interesting and knowledge gaining.

Now after reading for some time my curiosity has grown. I want to ask few questions and request your precious time to answer.

I want to know is the kaveri engine comparable to GE 404? If yes then why do we not incorporate this in LCA MK 1 /P?
If no then why cannot we increase the percentage of composites to use the homegrown Kaveri engine, which can be exported to friendly countries with a feasible price tag. We can even ask private sector to be the lead integrator and make a few hundred jets with all improvement coming in versions. This way we can achieve the make in India target. Let the private sector market the product and provide MRO services.

 

[Jagdish58]

The Kalyani group is all set to scale up its presence in the defence production sector. The group will concentrate on operationalising its three foreign joint ventures and at the same time, also explore opportunities in the aerospace sector.

Speaking to CNBC-TV18’s Rituparna Bhuyan, Kalyani group chairman Baba Kalyani said the armed forces require over 4,000 guns right now with the average price of one single unit expected to be around Rs 12 crore. This totals to Rs 50,000 crore worth of guns which no single company will make and therefore, the group plans to set up a ‘Make in India’ cell for the same.

The group is looking to make jet engines and sees lot of opportunities in aerospace segment, added Kalyani.

Below is verbatim transcript of the interview:

Q: What are the future plans of your group in defence sector?

A: On the aerospace side, we are looking more at components and are also looking at engines. This is another bugbear in India that we have not been able to produce our own jet engine after 60 years of independence.

The fact is we don’t have an indigenous jet engine, a comparative competent jet engine and I really don’t see why India as a country with all its resources, all its laboratories, we can’t make our own jet engine and I want to put my personal attention into seeing whether that would be possible

http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2015/05/plan-to-make-jet-engines-aerospace-next.html

 

[Sumit_Sharma]

LCA Tejas is a lightweight multi-role fighter developed by India. It is a tailless, compound delta-wing design powered by a single engine. It came from the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme, which began in the 1980s to replace India's aging MiG-21 fighters. Later, the LCA was officially named "Tejas", meaning "Radiance" .

The Tejas has the delta wing configuration, with no tailplanes or foreplanes, and features a single vertical fin. It integrates technologies such as relaxed static stability, fly-by-wire flight control system, advanced digital cockpit, multi-mode radar, integrated digital avionics system, advanced composite material structures and a flat rated engine. The IAF is reported to have a requirement for 200 single-seat and 20 two-seat conversion trainers, while the Indian Navy may order up to 40 single-seaters to replace its Sea Harrier FRS.51 and Harrier T.60.

The Tejas achieved a speed of over 1,350 kilometres per hour (840 mph) during its sea level flight trials, thus becoming the second supersonic fighter developed indigenously by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited after the HAL Marut. The Tejas achieved Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) in January 2011 for use by Indian Air Force pilots. Final operational clearance (FOC) is scheduled to be in early 2013.

We can clearly see the two different wing sweep angles on leading edge on the LCA.The lesser swept wing near the root along with twist at wing root ,to improve low altitude performance and to delay the flow separation vortices formation on the wing root,and higher swept angle after for excellent low drag high altitude supersonic dash , bestowing the tejas with lowest wing loading of all single engined fighters, resulting in agility in the vertical plane.


The lesser swept angle at the front is designed to perform the job of canards,with out the drag penalty ,rcs reflections,., and canard wash disadvantages, so that wings can always get the fresh airstrean at any angle of attack without turbulence from canards.

This frees tejas from ,force coupling issues resulting in uncontorallable flat spin ,and loss of control of the fighter, if certain parameters are exceeded, capping the agility of canard-deltas at some portions of flight envelopes

These features in combination is not seen on any other in production fighters before, so this is a original design endeavor from ada, not a copy of mirage as persistently advocated in many forums.The mirage is a plain vanilla delta with none of the above features with way lower twr and way lower wing loading figures.

Modern technologies are used in Tejas, I feel proud that this fighter Jet is developed by DRDO, NICE JET.

 

[Khagesh]

People have to understand that LCA Mk-1 is the real IAF plane. LCA Mk-2 is only another after-thought of the kind IAF keeps having every now and then. Yeh log planes sey jyada patang udate hain.

And while Mk-2 is the real growth path for LCA still it is actually an IN plane. IN needs this second level of Tejas because for their needs the airplanes become heavier and they require the real bigger engine to push that much weight.

Had IAF really believed in the higher TWR story that it has put out among its fanbase for the LCA Mk-2 it would simultaneously have said something about reducing the skin drag too. The requirement for the extra fuselage plug to reduce the form drag was already well understood and it could have been achieved in LCA Mk-1 itself had they not asked for a massive radome for the thing. So what was IAFs contribution, apart from sheepishly accepting what the ADA was saying or was proposing all along and later on cottoning onto the Indian Navy's requirement.

Should the IAF agree to the LCA-P1 that itself can render the bigger radome requirement redundant. The LCA Mk-2 will take longer because it involves changing some 75% of the aircraft. But a simpler redesign of the LCA P-1 would involve lesser effort than even the LCA Mk-1 metamorphosis into the NLCA Mk-1. Let them do it if they really are interested in that.

Reality is IAF salivates for the big wings also because they know hot high conditions sap both the lift & thrust. Not just the thrust. They probably see it as a half battle won. Now they know they will get the vanilla ice cream they also want the choco-cassata.

People have to understand LCA Mk-1 is capable of undertaking a large majority of all (say 70%-80%) of all missions that IAF will fly. With Navy its different.

 

[Victor3]

Every missile for a aircraft has a hole where comunicate trought whit the aircraft. But that makes the missile vulnerable to jamming or burn. But a material that decrease amplitude of waves and let go throught only some frecvencyes would help.

 

[Kyubi]

Why cant we take the gripen ng airframe and put our avonics,engine of tejas?
because gripen and tejas have same engine GE-F414(gripen uses volvo which is licence buit of F414)
Gripen can carry any missile from A-A to anti-ship missiles,but our tejas cannot carry anti-ship missile.
If we can build it cheaper so we can replace all old and different aircraft(mig-21,27,Jaguar,mirages)

Building an aircraft is not like building a muscle car where u get to plonk a 3rd gen ls6 engine in a 70's camaro.
First you need to observe the aircraft structure , Tejas is a cranked delta platform with no canard, tailplanes , whereas gripen has canards for control surfaces.

The ariframe is practically different , CLAW software and subsequent hydraulics needs to changed/modified which in itself takes years to build , test & certify.. Composites % needs to be evaluated in the airframe , FADEC also needs to tuned to suit the needs of aerodynamics,maneuvering doing all this is not childs play, it requires exhaustive lines of codes to be rewritten. test and certify...

 

[Kyubi]

I am very sad to say If this is true and we will really see Tejas MK2 in production by 2022 and first squad by 2025 then we must go ahead and buy more foreign Toys ....

After Tejas MK2 is over we must dissolve ADA.
We must not allow them to start any new project and get private sector to take there place.

HAL will never be building 16 per year 12 will be an highly optimistic figure.

If manohar parrikar wants to change something he must replace ADA with a private sector org and ask them to deliver or.....


I have been having full faith that we will be having Tejas MK2 is mass production by 2020 and 2022 we will first squad ready for action if thats a lie I do not know what to believe in and what not to.

If even now they are targetting 2022 then they are not gonna deliver till 2030 and then even IAF will be totally justified is refusing to buy any and looking for a foreign toy.


Starting to hate ADA Wishing could have fired each and every one of them..

*Fired:Not firing from job.

Contrary to the belief it is ADA that is counted as the best among the rest.. one cannot attribute the delay solely on one institution, which over the years has established centers of excellence in the aerospace industry. Indeed shortcomings are present one cannot brush it aside, but wishing for it to be closed is not the right way.

The only way forward is to intitate better Public and Pvt interaction in areas of aerospace engineering. already ADA is outsourcing many of its development works to Pvt cos, this phase should translate even for the production. Let the likes of TATA , ADANI L&T etc be invited to setup parallel lines of production.

Let the DM arm twist IAF into accepting more no of TEJAS aircrafts , this should be an incremental benefit for the state cos who can inturn help the pvt cos to setup shop.. A Military Industrial Complex where both the STATE and PVT cos having an equal share is the best possible move as of now.

 

[Pulkit]

Contrary to the belief it is ADA that is counted as the best among the rest.. one cannot attribute the delay solely on one institution, which over the years has established centers of excellence in the aerospace industry. Indeed shortcomings are present one cannot brush it aside, but wishing for it to be closed is not the right way.

I believe u r refferring to a very famous quote "Andhon main kana Raja" That is what ADA i s..
I am not blaming ADA only I believe you have made that preception based on the only post in which i have mentioned to shut down ADA which now on I stick to though my take has no value in it but still i am sharing my view.

ADA has been working on Tejas MK2 for quite a few years which base on earlier estimation must be ready by 2019 now they are going the same path the same mistake they did for MK1 .
Instead of pushing themselves they have started pushing deadlines.

And yes it is not the sole institution but it is the only institution that can be replaced .And other non changeable institution like IAF will not be able to effect once the body is private.

The only way forward is to intitate better Public and Pvt interaction in areas of aerospace engineering. already ADA is outsourcing many of its development works to Pvt cos, this phase should translate even for the production. Let the likes of TATA , ADANI L&T etc be invited to setup parallel lines of production.

No one invest in a product where there is no buyer .
IAF will not back Tejas MK2 if it slips its deadlines as they are already looking to abandon it.

They want foreign toys.

Let the DM arm twist IAF into accepting more no of TEJAS aircrafts , this should be an incremental benefit for the state cos who can inturn help the pvt cos to setup shop.. A Military Industrial Complex where both the STATE and PVT cos having an equal share is the best possible move as of now.

DM is doing his best but even he has limitation and the model you suggesting might work in our structure or might not.

 

[Shirman]

lets hope Tejas team Hal and ADA achieves its 2015/ this year targets before going into other matters of future......

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

SWEDEN’S GRIPEN BACK ON IAF’S RADAR FOR LIGHT COMBAT PLANES

Swedish defence minister Peter Hultqvist will be visiting India from June 9 to June 12, and it is likely that discussions between him and defence minister Manohar Parrikar will include the possibility of India re-looking at Saab’s Gripen NG single-engine light combat planes for the Indian Air Force (IAF).
What has led to the possibility of Gripen being back on the circuit is the fact that while the government has ordered 36 Rafales from French Dassault Aviation, outside the tender for the 126 MMRCA tender, Parrikar has been saying that the IAF may get low-end, light combat planes to replace its MiG-21 fighters.
Meanwhile, MoD’s official spokesperson Sitanshu Kar tweeted: “Swedish Defense Minister Peter Hultqvist to visit #HAL and #BEL in Bengaluru during his visit to India next week.”
Ahead of President Pranab Mukherjee’s visit to Sweden last week, secretary (West), ministry of external affairs, Navtej Sarna, had told mediapersons that “Swedish Defence Minister Peter Hultqvist, would be in India for two days beginning June 10 during which he would explore the possibility of engaging with New Delhi in the defence sector.”
With changed FDI rules and the ‘Make in India’ campaign, it is expected that the Swedish government would look at India as a manufacturing base, Sarna said.
During Mukherjee’s recent visit to Stockholm, the Swedish government had discussed the possibility of Gripen filling the gap in the IAF’s depleting fleet strength, owing to plans to phase out MiG-21s from 12 combat squadrons beginning 2016-17. Both countries have decided to restart the bilateral strategic dialogue after four years, besides finding ways for investment by the Nordic country in India’s defence sector under ‘Make in India’.


http://www.financialexpress.com/art...-on-iafs-radar-for-light-combat-planes/81569/