ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[proud_indian]

photographs of tejas sp-1

 

[power_monger]

Few more updates from Saurav Jha

LCA update #1: Cobham IFR and quartz radome expected to be delivered by November.

LCA update #2: Gun firing demonstrated from ground to user for all necessary parameters. Airborne testing in Jamnagar.

LCA update #3: Angle of Attack up to 26 degrees demonstrated. More testing is underway.

LCA update #4: Derby carriage trials Mid-October. Test firing by end-October. Dr TamilMani says piece of cake.

LCA update#5: IFR is not an issue once the assembly is actually delivered. Some more air to ground weapons are also being integrated.

LCA update #6: SP-1 is a completely debugged version of LSP-8 and is performing very well according to Dr Tamil Mani.

 

[sgarg]

The aircraft needs a paint job.

Anybody can distinguish type of radome from its colour? Any materials expert?

 

[Anony86]

Secondly and more importantly if Tejas is going to fire Derby than it means the Radar Radome issue has been sorted out..... I dont know which report is authentic : The one posted by IDRW saying the FOC will be delayed due to Radome and Fuel Probe issues or This Report which says Tejas will be firing Derby !

Maybe the Radome was for enabling 100 + range BVRAAM's and Derby at 50 kgs does nt cause issues....anyone has any inputs on that!

Both can be true. Tejas with it's composite radar radome can track a fighter size target from close to 50km, which again more or less is the range of Derby. Actual BVR combat is engaging fighter aircrafts from 80km or more.(Just a thumb rule definition)

 

[ersakthivel]

Both can be true. Tejas with it's composite radar radome can track a fighter size target from close to 50km, which again more or less is the range of Derby. Actual BVR combat is engaginf fighter aircrafts from 80km or more.(Just a thumb rule definition)

Fighter sized target means 5 sq meter in international norms as it signifies a fighter with external stores.

So when MNCs say their planes can track a fighter sized target at 120 Km it generally means 5 sq meter target at 120 Km.

However indian(IAF if ) standards for fighter sized target is 2 sq meter.

So in case IAF standard was applied to tejas , as it should be the case then tejas even with composite radars can track a 2 sq meter target at 50 Km.(clarification needed)

So roughly it can track a fighter sized target (as per international norms) at distances around 75 Km or so.(clarification needed).

Quartz radome is meant to improve over that.

 

[ersakthivel]

The aircraft needs a paint job.

Anybody can distinguish type of radome from its colour? Any materials expert?

It is not yet painted in IAF colors, only has a primer coat.

 

[ersakthivel]

Few more updates from Saurav Jha

LCA update #1: Cobham IFR and quartz radome expected to be delivered by November.

LCA update #2: Gun firing demonstrated from ground to user for all necessary parameters. Airborne testing in Jamnagar.

LCA update #3: Angle of Attack up to 26 degrees demonstrated. More testing is underway.

LCA update #4: Derby carriage trials Mid-October. Test firing by end-October. Dr TamilMani says piece of cake.

LCA update#5: IFR is not an issue once the assembly is actually delivered. Some more air to ground weapons are also being integrated.

LCA update #6: SP-1 is a completely debugged version of LSP-8 and is performing very well according to Dr Tamil Mani.

It performed a vertical loop in Aeroindia 2013 in begaluru at 20 seconds even with 20 deg AOA and 6G limitations.It also had half a ton of testing equipment on board if my memory serves me right.

Hope they field SP-1 in next aeroindia 2015 and it should l put up a much better display with 26 deg AOA.Whether it will reach the 8G clearance by then are not is another moot point.

 

[Pulkit]

Unable to understand the significance of this flight...

sorry to put it like this.... but what was so great about this flight..... its yet not FOC level if i am correct.... and if its just to celebrate that finally the first SP is flying(which should have been flying few months back) then its no at all grt....

they should show case or flaunt such achievements if they meet foc timelines and production deadlines....

Few more updates from Saurav Jha

LCA update #1: Cobham IFR and quartz radome expected to be delivered by November.

LCA update #2: Gun firing demonstrated from ground to user for all necessary parameters. Airborne testing in Jamnagar.

LCA update #3: Angle of Attack up to 26 degrees demonstrated. More testing is underway.

LCA update #4: Derby carriage trials Mid-October. Test firing by end-October. Dr TamilMani says piece of cake.

LCA update#5: IFR is not an issue once the assembly is actually delivered. Some more air to ground weapons are also being integrated.

LCA update #6: SP-1 is a completely debugged version of LSP-8 and is performing very well according to Dr Tamil Mani.

Fighter sized target means 5 sq meter in international norms as it signifies a fighter with external stores.

So when MNCs say their planes can track a fighter sized target at 120 Km it generally means 5 sq meter target at 120 Km.

However indian(IAF if ) standards for fighter sized target is 2 sq meter.

So in case IAF standard was applied to tejas , as it should be the case then tejas even with composite radars can track a 2 sq meter target at 50 Km.(clarification needed)

So roughly it can track a fighter sized target (as per international norms) at distances around 75 Km or so.(clarification needed).

Quartz radome is meant to improve over that.

It performed a vertical loop in Aeroindia 2013 in begaluru at 20 seconds even with 20 deg AOA and 6G limitations.It also had half a ton of testing equipment on board if my memory serves me right.

Hope they field SP-1 in next aeroindia 2015 and it should l put up a much better display with 26 deg AOA.Whether it will reach the 8G clearance by then are not is another moot point.

 

[Anony86]

Fighter sized target means 5 sq meter in international norms as it signifies a fighter with external stores.

So when MNCs say their planes can track a fighter sized target at 120 Km it generally means 5 sq meter target at 120 Km.

However indian(IAF if ) standards for fighter sized target is 2 sq meter.

So in case IAF standard was applied to tejas , as it should be the case then tejas even with composite radars can track a 2 sq meter target at 50 Km.(clarification needed)

So roughly it can track a fighter sized target (as per international norms) at distances around 75 Km or so.(clarification needed).

Quartz radome is meant to improve over that.

Yes IAF uses the standard as 2 sq meter and Tejas will eventually able to track flying object of RCS 2 sq meter from 120km. So when 45km - 50km tracking distance was specified, it is safe to assume that the figure is/was against 2 sq meter size target as this is the standard which Indian defence industry speaks in.

But for test the target chosen are pilotless aircraft such as Lakshya. Sometime even smaller target such as towed body from pilotless aircraft are chosen. These uav have RCS value even less than 2 sq meter. Hopefully I did able to clarify the doubt.

 

[power_monger]

Unable to understand the significance of this flight...

sorry to put it like this.... but what was so great about this flight..... its yet not FOC level if i am correct.... and if its just to celebrate that finally the first SP is flying(which should have been flying few months back) then its no at all grt....

they should show case or flaunt such achievements if they meet foc timelines and production deadlines....

Signifcance are

1) Most Importantly serial Production of Our First indigenious fighter has began.Until now it was all hand made built to varying specification prototypes.These are the jets which will be handed over to Indian Air force.So HAL has almost overcome issues in serial production(Not many believed it could deliver it on time).
2) The restrictions on flight envelople is opened and tejas will now be tested to its fighting limits.Which ultimatly means you will get better and reliable information on AOA,turn rates and other stuffs which will put a brake to all its detractors who till now bragged about tejas In-capabilities due to lack of information.
3) More importantly it indicates FOC is actually nearing,because SP-1,2,3 are the jets which will used to get FOC certification.

What more do you want? Are you expecting some secret capability unleasehed in tejas?that will never happen. Looking at ground realities,this is definatly a news to be celebrated.

 

[Twinblade]

Unable to understand the significance of this flight...

sorry to put it like this.... but what was so great about this flight..... its yet not FOC level if i am correct.... and if its just to celebrate that finally the first SP is flying(which should have been flying few months back) then its no at all grt....

they should show case or flaunt such achievements if they meet foc timelines and production deadlines....

The significance of this flight is that it gives closure to those of us following the program for a long time, since the first flight in my case. For the very first time, there is no more "when" but a more silent moment of celebration and peace. Tejas is no more a work in progress, it is now in production.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Signifcance are

1) Most Importantly serial Production of Our First indigenious fighter has began.Until now it was all hand made built to varying specification prototypes.These are the jets which will be handed over to Indian Air force.So HAL has almost overcome issues in serial production(Not many believed it could deliver it on time).
2) The restrictions on flight envelople is opened and tejas will now be tested to its fighting limits.Which ultimatly means you will get better and reliable information on AOA,turn rates and other stuffs which will put a brake to all its detractors who till now bragged about tejas In-capabilities due to lack of information.
3) More importantly it indicates FOC is actually nearing,because SP-1,2,3 are the jets which will used to get FOC certification.

What more do you want? Are you expecting some secret capability unleasehed in tejas?that will never happen. Looking at ground realities,this is definatly a news to be celebrated.

What is the production shedule of Sp2 3 4

and what is the delivery schedule for handing over SP1 2 3 4 to IAF ?

 

[sgarg]

Reply to Pulkit: It is an important milestone that first Tejas is delivered to IAF. This signifies that the planes has transitioned from development phase to induction phase. The factory has been established and production processes have streamlined. As has been made public by HAL, the assembly time required for one Tejas is 7 months. Even if the factory has 8 assembly stations, it translates to a peak capacity of 14 planes a year.

If the parts vendors deliver in right quantity and quality and coordination with final assembly is perfect, then it is possible to churn out a greater number of fighters than is assumed.

I think the AESA radar and quartz radome are key ingredients now, and will soon find their way into SP series, even on first 20 planes.

 

[sgarg]

What is the production shedule of Sp2 3 4

and what is the delivery schedule for handing over SP1 2 3 4 to IAF ?

Public sources say 2 by Dec 14 and another 2 by Mar 15. So 4 SP aircraft by March 15.

I have a feeling that HAL can ramp up faster now. If supply chain holds up, we can easily see 12 Tejas in next financial year.

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

photographs of tejas sp-1

the Flower Garland over the nose cone and Lemon under each tyre thats epic :thumb:

 

[Pulkit]

The significance of this flight is that it gives closure to those of us following the program for a long time, since the first flight in my case. For the very first time, there is no more "when" but a more silent moment of celebration and peace. Tejas is no more a work in progress, it is now in production.

I see no fun in celebrating this first flight.... I am a hardcore Fan of Tejas but this flight also does not provide me satisfaction and happiness....

I have been waiting for this day for a long time.....

And this day should have come a long time back.....

Yes Tejas is in mass production Finally.... but the use of word "MASS" actually is not correct batch or lot production will be better.... 40 odd on order is no mass production(starting to HATE IAF/HAL/AKANTONY Dislike ADA/DRDO)......


I will say yes it is time for us to be in peace as The TEjas HAters got what they wanted and we could do nothing....Its not like we could have done something but Feeling so helpless....

Signifcance are

1) Most Importantly serial Production of Our First indigenious fighter has began.Until now it was all hand made built to varying specification prototypes.These are the jets which will be handed over to Indian Air force.So HAL has almost overcome issues in serial production(Not many believed it could deliver it on time).
2) The restrictions on flight envelople is opened and tejas will now be tested to its fighting limits.Which ultimatly means you will get better and reliable information on AOA,turn rates and other stuffs which will put a brake to all its detractors who till now bragged about tejas In-capabilities due to lack of information.
3) More importantly it indicates FOC is actually nearing,because SP-1,2,3 are the jets which will used to get FOC certification.

What more do you want? Are you expecting some secret capability unleasehed in tejas?that will never happen. Looking at ground realities,this is definatly a news to be celebrated.

what more do I want? I wanted alot of things ..... First on the list can be FOC by end of this year as promised(I am fully aware that its not possible and can only be done by mid of 2015 i know this the day Tejas got IOC-2)...

Secondly rolling out of the first 4 SP A/C of IOC-2 standard by the end of this year ,but we all know that it is not gonna turn to reality (BAsed on a documentary by a Kannada news channel recently aired).....

Thirdly No More delays at any cost.....

How many Serial production issues have been resolved are yet to b understood and that can be judged by the production rate (just one of the criteria I think help us know how familiar/adapted we are to produce Tejas) so We should wait and see if they roll out remaining three in next three months .....
For me the capabilities of Tejas are all what we need or can desire from it.... So ...No I am not expecting anything new......
Looking at the ground realities I dont know which realities are u referring to .... Delays in FOC, From fighter to lead trainer,40 Odd on order,STill far away from indeginisation....
which reality do u wanna celeberate?


I am happy that Tejas MK1 is coming to an end after this there will no debates on Tejas MK1 as MK2 will take its place and what IAF /HAL /ADA/MD did to Tejas MK1
will all be forgotten.....


People responsible for all this ill fate will do there best to make fate Of Tejas MK2 similar to that of MK1.....

NOthing has changed till now its still "Chalta hai " attitude.... wasting tax payers had earned money....

I am not a pessimistic person but I see we are going in the same direction.... Saddened......

 

[Pulkit]

Reply to Pulkit: It is an important milestone that first Tejas is delivered to IAF. This signifies that the planes has transitioned from development phase to induction phase. The factory has been established and production processes have streamlined. As has been made public by HAL, the assembly time required for one Tejas is 7 months. Even if the factory has 8 assembly stations, it translates to a peak capacity of 14 planes a year.

If the parts vendors deliver in right quantity and quality and coordination with final assembly is perfect, then it is possible to churn out a greater number of fighters than is assumed.

I think the AESA radar and quartz radome are key ingredients now, and will soon find their way into SP series, even on first 20 planes.

Milestone ???? Getting Delivered to user who has rejected / ridiculed/insulted Tejas at each and every step....
It was ready for induction years back if USer with the intention of derailing it had not changed its need under the influence of lobbies....

Saying a fighter after so much trials testing ... impeccable record... meeting most of the requirements..... fit for being a Lead trainer is an insult to all those who believed in them and that too under influence... sad...

there is no fun in boosting assembly capability here as first four were to be delivered by this year end... Is it close to reality ... ?????

40 odd on order.... what sought of mass production are we looking at ?

You also are not sure about what you wrote otherwise you would have not used the word "IF" in your statement.....

 

[sgarg]

It is important to stay positive.

We as a nation have suffered from self-doubts. It is not appropriate to blame IAF only for that.

Even if the fighter is late, it is far closer to what IAF needs at this point in time. The fighters needs not only aero-dynamic performance but its sensors and weapons. A fighter plane is a very complex technological challenge. We must not over-simplify the work done by ADA and HAL.

Indians need to learn to be patient, though definitely working hard and expect others to work hard. Results will not come overnight when the challenges are complex.

I am happy that India is finally building weapons that its military needs. This is definitely a time of celebration for me.

 

[sgarg]

The numbers can change overnight for local programs. Local programs do not need lengthy tender processes.

So we should not be hung up with 20 or 40.

Last RM Anthony already instructed HAL to ramp up to 16 per year. The funds have been given to HAL for that. That makes sense for 75:25 split between IAF and IN. The Tejas will also be supplied to IN.

A run of 16 Tejas per year is quite significant for Indian aviation industry (a sale turnover of 3200-4000 crore per year).

If God smiles on India, and MRCA also tastes success, then India will finally be out of clutches of foreign suppliers for such a critical defence item.

 

[Pulkit]

I am replying assuming these were meant as a reply to what i wrote....
So please " reply with quote ".....

It is important to stay positive.

We have been staying positive for a decade towards the product but no longer the organisation ... we now need to be critic... and point out each and every smallest mistakes they do each and every deadline they miss.....we have given them benefit of doubt for long

We as a nation have suffered from self-doubts. It is not appropriate to blame IAF only for that.

I believe you have not been through the entire thread as then you would have not wrote what you did.... yes IAF is responsible along with DRDO HAL ADA

Even if the fighter is late, it is far closer to what IAF needs at this point in time. The fighters needs not only aero-dynamic performance but its sensors and weapons. A fighter plane is a very complex technological challenge. We must not over-simplify the work done by ADA and HAL.

IAF doesnot agree with you on the point it meets all the needs of IAF at this point...... I know what all goes in an fighter aircraft ... I am not saying ADA DRDO has done nothing but its with alot of missed deadlines .... when it comes to HAL i Donot agree with you .... HAL has done nothing to suport TEjas......NOthing at all

Indians need to learn to be patient, though definitely working hard and expect others to work hard. Results will not come overnight when the challenges are complex.

When it comes to INDIANS do you include ADA DRDO IAF HAL or not..... because enough is enough..... and its not a demand asked to be met overnight....

I am happy that India is finally building weapons that its military needs. This is definitely a time of celebration for me.

[/QUOTE]WIll see how far it goes....

The numbers can change overnight for local programs. Local programs do not need lengthy tender processes.

NO it cannot specially with all the paper work permissions required..... and when IAF itself has said no good about product why will they do that?

So we should not be hung up with 20 or 40.

Tell IAF and IA that ....... when it comes to Indian made Weapons these are the only numbers they come up with even if the requirement is 10 times....

Last RM Anthony already instructed HAL to ramp up to 16 per year. The funds have been given to HAL for that. That makes sense for 75:25 split between IAF and IN. The Tejas will also be supplied to IN.

Where can you see that happening ... Don't get me started on AK Antony"NO Deal No Scam" ... IN has supported Tejas when IAF has totally neglected it....Thanks to IN we are seeing MK2

A run of 16 Tejas per year is quite significant for Indian aviation industry (a sale turnover of 3200-4000 crore per year).

that way not even domestic requirements can be met in time..... forget about exports if any.....

If God smiles on India, and MRCA also tastes success, then India will finally be out of clutches of foreign suppliers for such a critical defence item.

MRCA???? what are you talking about... TEjas MK2 AMCA FGFA ??????what are you referring to here...????