ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

Which role suits LCA 'Tejas' more than others from following options?

  • Interceptor-Defend Skies from Intruders.

    Votes: 342 51.3%
  • Airsuperiority-Complete control of the skies.

    Votes: 17 2.5%
  • Strike-Attack deep into enemy zone.

    Votes: 24 3.6%
  • Multirole-Perform multiple roles.

    Votes: 284 42.6%

  • Total voters
    667
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CuriousBen

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I sometimes think that had HAL and ADA been more proactive and stuck to their schedules we would have been a world class air force!! :frusty:
MK I will replace 21 FL but I d really love to see Mk II replace the Bisons + Shamshers and the Bahadurs!!!
I concur. But at the same time we should understand what demotivates them. Is it lack of pension/ economical backing or lack of will ?
 

CuriousBen

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Migs had there time, Now we have something which suits our need specifically and design according to our needs, It is understandable that MKI are heavy fighters and good for offensive roles so does defensive and fall under certain catagory ..

But it is beyond my understanding to have a large force of heavy fighters at high expense both unit and operational cost and that too depend on import, To fight against a foe who have well oiled National defense industry which can keep up with casualties unlike ours and has a bigger budget for defense..

================

The catagory of deep strike now belong to MKI`s due to there range and combat payload, But again Nations who have there own long range cruise missiles wont use manned options unless in unique situations like Rafale operating over Libya under total absence of Libyan airforce and SAMs ..

My view of the conflict is focused on mainly China not Pakistan ..
Traditionally, those who have ruled the seas , have also ruled the world.
And nothing signifies strength better than an aircraft carrier.A naval platform is ment to be rugged and robust.

Diego Gargia the island captured by the british is used as American miltiary / naval base, right in the middle of the Indian ocean, not far away from maldives. It has nuclear weapons in that bases and effectively weapons delivery in terms of aircraft carriers. airbases and all.

We should be prudent enough to realize that china and pakistan together posses a bigger challenge, however china is encircling india from the seas via myanmar and planning somethings in maldives. Also at any given day the andaman and nicobar islands are strategic yet vulnerable.
The USA should never be considered an allay.

So I am keen to see the LCA tejas develop rapidly as a potent platform especially for the navy. However as what i understand by an engineer/ scientist that it is sub-optimal , I have my doubts about it.
 

bennedose

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Traditionally, those who have ruled the seas , have also ruled the world.
.
With respect, the "tradition" is one that has been conjured up after the 1600s as a form of self-praise of the west. If you go back in history for 5000 years before 1600, ruling the world, or ruling large tracts of land had nothing to do with maririme power. This is not to devalue the importance of maritime power but to point out that the statement you have quoted is a "standard cliche" like "1000 years rule Islamic of India" and "More cellphones than toilets" - al of them are overused and unquestioned statements.

Sorry, OT
 

Patriot

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Let me clarify that I am not any political entho or supporter. You should read the messages properly before deriving the conclusions
Your statement of spoiling is outright wrong and not acceptable, discouraging. Others in the forum have used unacceptable foul language at times, and I have not done anything as such, neither have I presisted with any continues ranting of anything. Rather the decorum is maintained.

other hand, your statement cements the chalta hai attitude about corruption and loss to exchequer and what can i do attitude it seems , so carry on with it.
The impression from your spolit statement is ,since discussing money /corruption ( accordingly political) is ecomonics and not a technical defence booster , you view that economical discussion of the tejas spoil the forum.

My views are simple.

now tradtionally we indians have been good spectators and good at debating.The wealth of information in this forum should be put to better use in a national awakening sense whereby india could save on bilions of dollars.
for your gods sake , saving at least 10 billion dollars might get us 2 additional vikramadityas to say thel east.

So wheres the politics involved ?
Mate you have been politely advised with due respect. Whether you accept or not it is up to you and MODs. But the way you implying for my advice in altogether in different context shows you are trying to promote politics/party etc BS in technical thread.

Rest what you have written is not relevant to the thread & topic, hence I resist commenting on the same to keep the thread on the track.

Sorry Mods for OT.
 

Kunal Biswas

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@CuriousBen, Your concerns are genuine, I suggest open another thread not this thread as its dedicated for Tejas news and development discussion ..
 
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Abhi9

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Tejas: Best and Really Cheap

HAL pegs price of Tejas light fighter at Rs 162 crore
Broadsword: HAL pegs price of Tejas light fighter at Rs 162 crore

The Tejas Mark I will be one of the world's most affordable fighters in its class. Ministry of Defence (MoD) sources tell Business Standard that Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has quoted a price of Rs 162 crore per aircraft for the first 20 Tejas fighters that have begun production in Bangalore. That translates into a dollar price of approximately $26 million per fighter.

This is a fraction of the cost of the comparable Mirage-2000, which was bought relatively cheaply in the 1980s, but is currently being upgraded for Rs 280 crore ($45 million) per fighter. On December 19, 2011, Defence Minister AK Antony had told parliament that Thales would get Euro 1.4 billion (Rs 11,830 crore today) for upgrading the Indian Air Force (IAF) fleet of 49 Mirage-2000 fighters, while HAL would get Rs 2020 crore, i.e. a total of Rs 13,850 crore. Since the upgrade will only be completed by 2021, that cost would rise further if the rupee falls.

Mr Antony also told parliament that the IAF's fleet of 69 MiG-29 fighters was being upgraded for US $964 million, that is about Rs 87 crore per fighter, over and above the acquisition cost.

The Sukhoi-30MKI, a heavier and, therefore, more expensive fighter that HAL builds in Nashik, currently costs the IAF more than Rs 400 crore ($65 million) each. The Rafale medium multi-role fighter, which is currently being negotiated with Dassault, could cost between Rs 750-850 crore ($120-140 million) each.

The JF-17 Thunder, the Pakistan Air Force's new light fighter that was "co-developed" with China is believed to be marginally cheaper, at $23-24 million per aircraft. However, the Tejas is significantly more advanced than the JF-17, being built from composite materials, incorporating an advanced fly-by-wire system, and fitted with more advanced avionics.

The MoD is bargaining with HAL over the Tejas' Rs 162 crore price tag, pointing out that HAL had, in 2006, quoted a unit price of Rs 116.49 crore per fighter. HAL argues that the rupee's decline (some 45 per cent of the Tejas comes from abroad) and inflation over the last 8 years warrants a 40 per cent rise.

During a recent tour of the Tejas assembly line, Business Standard was briefed about HAL's initiatives to slash the cost of the Tejas, rendering it more attractive to the IAF. HAL's first step has been to target economy of scale by developing its assembly line and supply chains for 200 fighters, although the IAF has only committed to buying just 40 Tejas Mark I fighters so far.

In planning ambitiously, HAL has the MoD's support. Mr Antony announced last month in Bangalore, when the Tejas was being inducted into the IAF, that about 200 fighters would be eventually built in Mark I and Mark II configurations.

By HAL's reckoning, these include --- 20 Tejas Mark I fighters in the current configuration; and 20 more once Final Operational Clearance is received at the end of 2014 (the IAF has already committed to buying these two squadrons). Next, HAL plans to build 84 Tejas Mark II (four squadrons). The navy has already ordered 8 Naval Tejas; and is planning to order 11 Naval Tejas trainers soon. When development is complete, about 46 Naval Tejas will be ordered for India's two indigenous aircraft carriers --- INS Vikrant and its successor.

HAL is also developing a cost-effective supply chain by establishing Long Time Business Agreements (LTBAs) of 3-5 years with its sub-vendors. Instead of giving them piecemeal orders, HAL assures its sub-vendors of production orders for up to 40-50 aircraft sets. Having provided them business confidence and driven down prices, HAL negotiates yearly requirements with them in tandem with its production rate, ensuring the in-flow of raw materials and parts to keep the Tejas line rolling. As IAF/navy orders grow, these vendors are assured of further business provided their performance and prices remain satisfactory.

Long lead components, which require time to build and sometimes have a high rejection rate, have been identified and addressed. The Tejas line will have a high quality machining shop with state-of-the-art five-axis CNC machines. For critical parts like the Tejas' carbon composite wing skin, these machines will replace the manual drilling of 8000 holes, using instead a computerised drilling programme that will reduce cycle time, errors and production cost.

"With measures like these, we will improve the Tejas' build quality and eliminate rework, rejection and delays. Bringing down the 'Standard Man Hour' for series production, when compared to building prototypes, will automatically reduce the production cost of the Tejas," says RK Tyagi, Chairman of HAL.
 

Abhi9

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Better management of public projects brings the desired results. As it can be seen that as the youth of India steps and are more realistic in their approach. Today the people in India are more determined and have a zeal to prove themselves and bring laurels to the nation. The dimension of the public sector job is changing from Babu-dom and to a more productive and challenging atmosphere.

I am happy to seem the nation progressing on the right track, though their detractors who remain skeptical of the progress of the nation, I say" Keep calm and carry on". In the coming years the command of the nation will be in the hand of youth who see India as a superpower and are no longer have a demoralization that our fathers faced on the hands of subversive forces.

Tejas is a realization of that dream: I do not support that Rafale deal: For 120 million dollar a plane with some more fancy electronics is not at all justified. Whatever electronics that Tejas Mk1 lacks can be incorporated in Mk2. Rafale is way over-priced and its not the worth of buying planes for 15 billion dollars and their life cycle cost will be 2-3 times this. So we will spend 45 billion dollars for a plane that is 4.5 generation and at the same time we are on the right track for MK2 tejas which will cost way less

We are on the right track with Tejas Mk2 and AMCA.
 

Abhi9

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As General V.K Singh rightly said. WE can easily buy Dassault because they have no orders other than french air force. If we buy Rafale we are fueling their growth not ours.
 

jmj_overlord

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As General V.K Singh rightly said. WE can easily buy Dassault because they have no orders other than french air force. If we buy Rafale we are fueling their growth not ours.
seems like the french won't readily sell their aircrafts so easily to the only foreign buyer.......anyway lca tejas seems like a wonderful product for export to the developing nations as a capable and cheap fighter aircraft
 

rvjpheonix

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If the articles figures are correct then we can but 5 tejas for every rafale or almost two brand new tejas for every mirage upgrade.Even the life cycle costs of the tejas will be much lower than any aircraft the IAF operates. I guess our little aircraft gives great value for money. IMHO the IAF should cancel the mirage upgrade and commit those funds for more tejas. If we order more numbers and if we indeginize more LRU's (which is an ongoing process) the cost might drop further and we might be able to get anywhere from 80-100 tejas mk 1. In my opinion rafale should not be cancelled because we do not have a deep strike aircraft capable enough to enter chinese airspace and it brings new capability to the table. Everyone's happy- Dassault and ADA/HAL(not mention us people:thumb:)
 

AVERAGE INDIAN

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HAL pegs price of Tejas fighter at Rs 162 crore

The Tejas Mark I will be one of the world's most affordable fighters in its class. Ministry of Defence (MoD) sources tell Business Standard that Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has quoted a price of Rs 162 crore per aircraft for the first 20 Tejas fighters that have begun production in Bangalore. That translates into a dollar price of approximately $26 million a fighter.

This is a fraction of the cost of the comparable Mirage-2000, which was bought relatively cheaply in the 1980s, but is currently being upgraded for Rs 280 crore ($45 million) per fighter. On December 19, 2011, Defence Minister A K Antony had told Parliament that Thales would get Euro 1.4 billion (Rs 11,830 crore today) for upgrading the Indian Air Force (IAF) fleet of 49 Mirage-2000 fighters, while HAL would get Rs 2,020 crore, i.e., a total of Rs 13,850 crore. Since the upgrade will only be completed by 2021, that cost would rise further if the rupee falls.

Antony also told Parliament the IAF's fleet of 69 MiG-29 fighters was being upgraded for $964 million, that is about Rs 87 crore per fighter, over and above the acquisition cost.

The Sukhoi-30MKI, a heavier and, therefore, more expensive fighter that HAL builds in Nashik, currently costs the IAF more than Rs 400 crore ($65 million) each. The Rafale medium multi-role fighter, which is currently being negotiated with Dassault, could cost between Rs 750 crore and Rs 850 crore ($120-140 million) each.

The JF-17 Thunder, the Pakistan Air Force's new light fighter that was "co-developed" with China is believed to be marginally cheaper, at $23-24 million per aircraft. However, the Tejas is significantly more advanced than the JF-17, being built from composite materials, incorporating an advanced fly-by-wire system, and fitted with more advanced avionics.

The MoD is bargaining with HAL over the Tejas' Rs 162 crore price tag, pointing that HAL had, in 2006, quoted a unit price of Rs 116.49 crore per fighter. HAL argues the rupee's decline (some 45 per cent of the Tejas comes from abroad) and inflation over the past 8 years warrants a 40 per cent rise.

During a recent tour of the Tejas assembly line, Business Standard was briefed about HAL's initiatives to slash the cost of the Tejas, rendering it more attractive to the IAF. HAL's first step has been to target economy of scale by developing its assembly line and supply chains for 200 fighters, though the IAF has only committed to buying just 40 Tejas Mark I fighters so far.

In planning ambitiously, HAL has the MoD's support. Antony announced last month in Bangalore, when the Tejas was being inducted into the IAF, that about 200 fighters would be eventually built in Mark I and Mark II configurations.

By HAL's reckoning, these include 20 Tejas Mark I fighters in the current configuration; and 20 more once Final Operational Clearance is received at the end of 2014 (the IAF has already committed to buying these two squadrons). Next, HAL plans to build 84 Tejas Mark II (four squadrons). The navy has already ordered 8 Naval Tejas; and is planning to order 11 Naval Tejas trainers soon. When development is complete, about 46 Naval Tejas will be ordered for India's two indigenous aircraft carriers - INS Vikrant and its successor.

HAL is also developing a cost-effective supply chain by establishing Long Time Business Agreements (LTBAs) of 3-5 years with its sub-vendors. Instead of giving them piecemeal orders, HAL assures its sub-vendors of production orders for up to 40-50 aircraft sets. Having provided them business confidence and driven down prices, HAL negotiates yearly requirements with them in tandem with its production rate, ensuring the in-flow of raw materials and parts to keep the Tejas line rolling. As IAF/navy orders grow, these vendors are assured of further business provided their performance and prices remain satisfactory.

Long lead components, which require time to build and sometimes have a high rejection rate, have been identified and addressed. The Tejas line will have a high quality machining shop with state-of-the-art five-axis CNC machines. For critical parts like the Tejas' carbon composite wing skin, these machines will replace the manual drilling of 8,000 holes, using instead a computerised drilling programme that will reduce cycle time, errors and production cost.

"With measures like these, we will improve the Tejas' build quality and eliminate rework, rejection and delays. Bringing down the 'Standard Man Hour' for series production, when compared to building prototypes, will automatically reduce the production cost of the Tejas," says RK Tyagi, chairman of HAL.

HAL pegs price of Tejas fighter at Rs 162 crore | Business Standard
 

Twinblade

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WE can easily buy Dassault because they have no orders other than french air force. If we buy Rafale we are fueling their growth not ours.
Rafale is not their only product, in fact majority of Dassault's business comes from civil aviation. Only a handful of Dassault shares are in public, rest are all in the tight fists of EADS and Dassault family. Good luck trying to buy even a single share, let alone the entire company.
 

ersakthivel

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If the articles figures are correct then we can but 5 tejas for every rafale or almost two brand new tejas for every mirage upgrade.Even the life cycle costs of the tejas will be much lower than any aircraft the IAF operates. I guess our little aircraft gives great value for money. IMHO the IAF should cancel the mirage upgrade and commit those funds for more tejas. If we order more numbers and if we indeginize more LRU's (which is an ongoing process) the cost might drop further and we might be able to get anywhere from 80-100 tejas mk 1. In my opinion rafale should not be cancelled because we do not have a deep strike aircraft capable enough to enter chinese airspace and it brings new capability to the table. Everyone's happy- Dassault and ADA/HAL(not mention us people:thumb:)
if you know what is the annual budget allocation for IAF and the break up of expenditure you will know how tough it is to find money for all of them FGFA , RAFALE ,tejas mk-2, at the same time.

And you don't have to think that chinese air defence will be so weak for RAFALE to fool them all at the same time,If you want deep strike in chinese air space after the next ten years only FGFA, AMCA and AURA are the candidates for it. Not RAFAFE or SU-30 MKI.

Cost wise RAFALE is just too expensive for the 4.5th gen stuff it offers,And will smother IAF budget for decades to come resulting in the decreasing no of fighters for IAF .

If you allocate the same amount of funds to tejas mk-2 it will increase the IAF sq strength and cumulative fighting strength four fold for the same money,
 
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p2prada

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As General V.K Singh rightly said. WE can easily buy Dassault because they have no orders other than french air force. If we buy Rafale we are fueling their growth not ours.
Do you know why Pakistan is in such deep shit today?

It's because the generals played economics.

What VK Singh does not know is the French govt will not allow a foreign takeover of a strategic organization even if the takeover attempt is hostile. If required, a French (or EU) company can take over Dassault instead, or even the military business wing of Dassault. That would be allowed by the French govt. Typical example of a general playing economics.

If we can buy Dassault, they can buy ISRO. You really think it is possible?
 

sayareakd

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I love to have more LCA then Rafale but the only problem is that LCA dont have long legs. Plus we need new tech. Please remember we have to aim for 6g while set our eyes for 5g. AMCA will be our ticket through Rafale. Expensive as it is we will have two types of aircraft TOT( assuming Ambani dont become partner in Rafale and we will go with HAL) base on experiance we will make AMCA plus FGFA.

Learning curve is too long. So we have to take short cut smartly without losing focus on what we want. Hell we can afford 100 of both Rafale and EF. But not very practical approch.

So lets go about it wisely. We need lots of fighter to take on two front war. Right now we can do dominating air superority with one enemy.

MOD and IAF get your act togther and get us TOT.
 

p2prada

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I love to have more LCA then Rafale but the only problem is that LCA dont have long legs. Plus we need new tech. Please remember we have to aim for 6g while set our eyes for 5g. AMCA will be our ticket through Rafale. Expensive as it is we will have two types of aircraft TOT( assuming Ambani dont become partner in Rafale and we will go with HAL) base on experiance we will make AMCA plus FGFA.

Learning curve is too long. So we have to take short cut smartly without losing focus on what we want. Hell we can afford 100 of both Rafale and EF. But not very practical approch.

So lets go about it wisely. We need lots of fighter to take on two front war. Right now we can do dominating air superority with one enemy.

MOD and IAF get your act togther and get us TOT.
Rafale ToT will be of very little use for AMCA. Our aim will be much higher. Rafale industrial production will give an advantage.

Ambani will be building wings for the Rafales.
 

Kunal Biswas

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What General Sir said was an example to show the amount spend on such an import, Remember this that an Nation ability to make fighters can take on thousand of imported fighter and still win ..

Tot is important but will they truly provide us with the real tot or just the blue print, Don't forget Russian T-90 missile tot case ..
 
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