ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[Abhi9]

 

[Kyubi]

wow the fuselage looks so sleek and neat when viewed from the top

 

[Neeraj Mathur]

best pic
paint job and background :thumb:

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Before moving forward with questions on the subject you are talking, You must know about the subject`s back ground / concept ..

Must read few comments after the red arrow ..

Dear ersakthivel

\what do you suggest be used as a replacement for Jags and the Mig-27's??

MKI's can be made into bomb trucks but they can be detected from a long way off if you use them as a replacement, and Tejas is best suited for CAS role (no offence meant for all the multirole tag being tooted) IF at all we end up with a war with China than their ploy will be to overwhelm our MKI's with mass both in fighters and SAM's so you need a potent dedicated Air to Ground delivery system like Rafael. Having said that I also agree the cost is way too much to overlook!

=========>>

Major reason for Tejas exsistance as a light fighter is to counter ' War of Attrition ' ,The Tejas are useful compare to Rafale or most importantly SU-30MKI is that it runs at very lower cost and made in India ..

For Example in war, 10,000 sorties are done with SU-30mki for CAS ( Taking out enemy command, Supply chain, Bridges and PGM drop ) where one or two Laser guided bombs needed to complete the task, takes more money as they burn more fuel and more maintenance for those huge engines and large airframe, This cause fast exhaustion of operational capability of Air-force and it weaken county`s economy..

BUT

Same with tejas takes lesser money as they are small single engine fighter and ability to drop multiple PGMs for variety of CAS targets, Smaller Airframe and small single engine burn less fuel hence lesser operational cost and smaller airframe & Engine gives lesser maintenance, At the same time they are mullti-role in nature and can change roles quickly..

This is a Major reason light fighter exist ..

=======================

Besides Tejas can land and take off from short runways or Roads, It is made in India so there is no restriction on modifications and upgrades we can do on airframe and can produce as many as we want, Tejas are vital for future wars specially with China, Tejas at the moment is the only fighter which is made in India and can be produce in hundreds like China with J-10/11 ..

There are nothing second and first line, Its always the first line with mix of fighters, Let me elaborate some positive points compare to other fighters ..

1. Unlike MIG-29, Tejas have larger bore sight engagement capability they are also low observable compare to all metal built MIGS, Has latest Internal EW suit and full glass cockpit compare to MIG-29, Not to mention Tejas have lower operational costs so does maintenance ..

2. It can carry A2G munition same or more than MIG-27 may not be JAG though and has better flying preform-ace ..

3. Better in almost all aspect compare to MIG-21 bision ..

 

[Twinblade]

The APU intakes on LSP 7 and 8 seems to have some sort of pop up opening that is not open all the time.

 

[p2prada]

The APU intakes on LSP 7 and 8 seems to have some sort of pop up opening that is not open all the time.

I believe the intake was moved to the top instead. So, if you look down from above the aircraft, you might see an opening.

 

[Punya Pratap]

Dear Kunal Biswas

Thanks for the education and I really appreciate it!

I am not debunking the dire need for Tejas and am a strong supporter of Tejas. I feel sad whenever I see Migs' flying over head (I live in Jodhpur) and the day Tejas dons the blue grey of IAF I will be mighty happy but I still ask what is going to replace the Jags and the Bahadurs for deep strikes?? Irrespective of the fact that Tejas is not only cost effective but also technologically promising for future. I understand the reason why IAF wants Rafael but at the price the french are demanding and they way they are deethering I think they are digging a hole for themselves!
Dont be surprised if a non UPA govt takes MMRCA decision for a review which will mean further delays and if that happens I d rather have an AMCA instead of a 4.5 gen Rafael! In the meanwhile put Tejas Mk II and MKI's in the mix!!

 

[Twinblade]

I still ask what is going to replace the Jags and the Bahadurs for deep strikes??

Bahadur will be gone by the end of the decade and Shamsher, Baaz and Vajra will serve till 2030. There is no clear cut replacement plan explicitely stated out for Bahadur. All that is happening is that from now on we will be retiring more planes annually than we are inducting. The fall will be stabilised and reversed only by the time Rafale and Tejas Mk2 come into production and gain rapidly when FGFA starts rolling out. The proper replacement for Bahadur, Shamsher, Baaz and Vajra would be AMCA..

 

[p2prada]

but I still ask what is going to replace the Jags and the Bahadurs for deep strikes??

Bahadurs, No 10, 18, 22 and 222 squadrons will all be replaced by Rafales. One Mig-27 squadron was replaced by MKI. No 2 squadron.

Shamsher, the plan is to replace them with AMCA after 2025. Most of the Jaguars will be upgraded with radars and new engines by 2023.

The current plan for LCA is to replace all Mig-21 variants.

Dont be surprised if a non UPA govt takes MMRCA decision for a review which will mean further delays and if that happens I d rather have an AMCA instead of a 4.5 gen Rafael! In the meanwhile put Tejas Mk II and MKI's in the mix!!

AMCA won't arrive in time to replace the Mig-27s. If Rafale is cancelled then it is impossible to achieve 42 squadrons by 2022 even with more MKIs and LCAs. The Russians themselves have ordered Su-30SMs, so the Irkut production line is not free. It won't be free until 2022 as they will soon be ordering another 30 SMs. Our MKI production line won't be free until 2018-19. MKI and LCA are required to replace Mig-21s so that will take time, well beyond 2020 for LCA. So, there's not much we can do with MKIs anyway while LCA is needed for direct squadron replacement of Mig-21s.

You can say that we will fall short by at least 4, if not 6 squadrons, the number that is to be inducted in the MRCA deal, if Rafale is canceled. So, it is not a viable move. The options clause is just a bonus and would take care of any delays in either LCA or FGFA programs. With the two year delay with FGFA, the options clause becomes more important.

So, now you know why all the current projects are important for IAF. We can't dismiss one for the other.

 

[ersakthivel]

Dear Kunal Biswas

Thanks for the education and I really appreciate it!

I am not debunking the dire need for Tejas and am a strong supporter of Tejas. I feel sad whenever I see Migs' flying over head (I live in Jodhpur) and the day Tejas dons the blue grey of IAF I will be mighty happy but I still ask what is going to replace the Jags and the Bahadurs for deep strikes?? Irrespective of the fact that Tejas is not only cost effective but also technologically promising for future. I understand the reason why IAF wants Rafael but at the price the french are demanding and they way they are deethering I think they are digging a hole for themselves!
Dont be surprised if a non UPA govt takes MMRCA decision for a review which will mean further delays and if that happens I d rather have an AMCA instead of a 4.5 gen Rafael! In the meanwhile put Tejas Mk II and MKI's in the mix!!

You should A.K.Antony's statement at IOC-2 which simply states that tejas is good enough to replace all Mig variants in IAF.

The tejas mk-1 can replace both the mig-21 and 27 along with jaguar . It is more versatile than mig-29 and equal to upgraded mirage-2000 is what is universally accepted.

So if configured with proper external weapon load and external fuel tank along with optimum number of fighters for the strike or air to air mission it can do the job perfectly well.

You should see it dropping dumb bombs with accuracy in chitradurga trials.

The idea that deltas can not perform the role of tree top level intrusion below enemy ground radar stations due to buffeting belongs in the pre RSS fly by wire age. In the fly by wire RSS compound delta age fighters of same config like RAFALE are called omni role meaning they can do all the roles with no problems.


SO you don't see any straight wing Jag types tailored to only CAS strikers on the drawing board of any fighter design bureau .

All the new fighters that enter service are some sort of canard delta or compound delta. because fly by wire tech makes piloting these deltas at low level with same ease as that of CAS Jag types.

Especially with the proliferation of shoulder fired SAMs fighters that don't have high ITRs (most important attribute of deltas ) like JAGS and mig-27 will have a very hard time surviving , because of the very low availability of lead time and their inability to to do a high instantaneous turn like the deltas.

tejas mk-2 will take the specs to even better levels with a ton more weapon load, So there is no need for Jags and Bahadurs.It will carry the ground bombing loads of jags along with Mig-21 loads of air to air missiles in a single platform.

Time on station is a matter of fuel fraction, i.e weight of the fuel on board/weight of the fighter. SO the amount of fuel carried is irrelevant.

Tejas mk-1 which has a ferry range of 1750 km on internal fuel alone can compare well with F-16 and tejas mk-2 can do even better.

Question is not that of UPA or non UPA govt.

MMRCA deal was purused when there was no certainity on Tejas . Now even the time lines of tejas mk-2 can be guessed with some confidence. So what needs to be evaluated is whether the deal justifies the huge cost involved, that too being exactly a 4.5 th gen fighter like Tejas - mk-2.

because Grippen NG is winning many competitions , when it competes against RAFALE.

DO you think the sweedish airforce will buy hundreds of RAFALE in a 20 plus billion dollar deal when they have the grippen NG which is many times economical than RAFALE. Never.


TEjas mk-2 is going to be an equivalent of grippen NG with so little difference between them, then where is the need for RAFALE in IAF?

Another thing to note is none of the airforces that chose Grippen NG over RAFALE citing cost have 270 SU-30 MKI heavy fighters and had the possibility of introducing FGFA with in a decade.

Those su-30 MKIs are going to be upgraded to Super sukhoi levels soon.

Then where is the special need for RAFALE in IAF alone? Strange logic.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Migs had there time, Now we have something which suits our need specifically and design according to our needs, It is understandable that MKI are heavy fighters and good for offensive roles so does defensive and fall under certain catagory ..

But it is beyond my understanding to have a large force of heavy fighters at high expense both unit and operational cost and that too depend on import, To fight against a foe who have well oiled National defense industry which can keep up with casualties unlike ours and has a bigger budget for defense..

================

The catagory of deep strike now belong to MKI`s due to there range and combat payload, But again Nations who have there own long range cruise missiles wont use manned options unless in unique situations like Rafale operating over Libya under total absence of Libyan airforce and SAMs ..

My view of the conflict is focused on mainly China not Pakistan ..

Dear Kunal Biswas

Thanks for the education and I really appreciate it!

I am not debunking the dire need for Tejas and am a strong supporter of Tejas. I feel sad whenever I see Migs' flying over head (I live in Jodhpur) and the day Tejas dons the blue grey of IAF I will be mighty happy but I still ask what is going to replace the Jags and the Bahadurs for deep strikes?? Irrespective of the fact that Tejas is not only cost effective but also technologically promising for future. I understand the reason why IAF wants Rafael but at the price the french are demanding and they way they are deethering I think they are digging a hole for themselves!
Dont be surprised if a non UPA govt takes MMRCA decision for a review which will mean further delays and if that happens I d rather have an AMCA instead of a 4.5 gen Rafael! In the meanwhile put Tejas Mk II and MKI's in the mix!!

 

[ersakthivel]

The current plan for LCA is to replace all Mig-21 variants.

Wrong, Read Antony's statement in IOC-2. Tejas mk-1 is capable of replacing everything other than Mig-29s and Su-30 MKis is what is mentioned in Ajai shukla's blog which detailed the capability after IOC-2.

The only way for IAF to reach its sanctioned squadron strength is by scrapping RAFALE deal and setting up a production line capable of producing 20 plus Tejas fighters every year.

RAFALE will simply eat away most of the resources in a 20 plus billion dollar deal leading to slow staggered production and IAF never reaching the requires strength with cutting edge 4.5th gen tech.

In a two front war it is going to be hundreds and hundreds of tejas mk-2s paired with upgraded super Sukhois that can stop the high in number enemy fleet of heavy flankers,Just a hundred odd RAFALEs are not going to make any significant difference in that scenario.Since RAFALE has same radar antenna dia of tejas mk-2 there is no edge even in air to air mode.

We can have more than 400 Tejas mk-2 fighters for the same cost of 126 RAFALEs .thrice the squadron strength for the same budget with fighters customized to our own needs with three times more ASEA radars and EW suits in the air.

Once BVR salvos are over higher numbers are very crucial in close air combat.

However good on specs one RAFALE can never cope with three tejas mk-2 fighters in a close combat in a 1:3 scenario.

Tejas mk-2 is going to have 3 tons ground strike munition load along with 2 tons air to air missile loads along with cutting edge ASEA radar and sophisticated EW suits. So it can fill the role of most of the fighters in IAF leaving aside su-30 MKI

 

[Punya Pratap]

Thanks p2prada, very insightful of you and I entirely agree with your observations.
By the way how many Shamshers do we have to replace (125 by wiki source) and I also read the interview of Avinash Chander who said they have finalised the design of AMCA !! Should we look forward to 2022 and I am sure Shamshers will last longer now with the Honeywells and Darin III upgrades lined up.

 

[pankaj nema]

Tejas Mk 1 will replace only Mig 21

WHY ? Because We are making only 40 MK1 planes

So 40 Tejas MK 1 will replace 40 Mig 21 FL

 

[Punya Pratap]

Good one Ersakthivel!! :thumb:

 

[Punya Pratap]

I sometimes think that had HAL and ADA been more proactive and stuck to their schedules we would have been a world class air force!!
MK I will replace 21 FL but I d really love to see Mk II replace the Bisons + Shamshers and the Bahadurs!!!

 

[rvjpheonix]

I have doubt for the gurus. Why do we need more aircraft for deep strike role than the 270 mki's we are procuring? Historically IAF has only attackd militiary bases or nerve targets. The Tejas can carry 2 500 kg bombs. Isn't that enough for most missions atleast on the western front like taking out supply lines, roads or taking out a runway? For the rest we have the mki's. Also cant we integrate the popeye like the gripen or kh series on the tejas? Also what heaviest bomb can tejas take?

 

[Twinblade]

Why do we need more aircraft for deep strike role than the 270 mki's we are procuring? Historically IAF has only attackd militiary bases or nerve targets. The Tejas can carry 2 500 kg bombs. Isn't that enough for most missions atleast on the western front like taking out supply lines, roads or taking out a runway? For the rest we have the mki's. Also cant we integrate the popeye like the gripen or kh series on the tejas? Also what heaviest bomb can tejas take?

All aircraft being procured today are multirole and are classed by IAF as light, medium and heavy and not by role (deep strike, air superiority etc). The heaviest hard points on Tejas are rated at 1200 kg. The long range of MKIs is supposed to supposed to give us capabilities over long distances of Indian ocean and Tibet. Long range also translates into plenty of endurance at short range for the bomb truck role. Back in Kargil, we didn't have enough aircraft equipped with laser targeting, nor a decent stock of LGB. Today we have both. A kargil like misadventure today would see precision bombing right away. Tejas is supposed to receive crystal maze/popeye (unconfirmed) and Kh series of missiles (unconfirmed).

 

[bennedose]

I think a lot of people forget that "multirole" in this day and age means having the avionics and capability to switch from air defence to attack by simply selecting the software and possibly a quick (few minutes) replacement of LRU's (Line Replaceable Units).

If you look at 2nd and 3rd gen fighters - they would not easily switch from one role to the other, simply because an air interception radar was no good for ground targeting, and Laser ranging or ground radar could not be used in the anti-air role. Besides there was not necessarily and easy way to change pylons or payload.

Hence, in 1971, the MiG 21 with an air interception radar was used for ground attack using the Mark 1 eyeball. Hunters had guns and rockets/bombs, but no radar. The Su-7 had no chance of doing any air defence.

With modern avionics an aircraft can be truly multirole - and can "swing its role" from defence to attack in a matter of minutes. The Tejas demonstarted just this capability in iron fist by both dropping an LGB as well as firing an AAM. That is why Tejas is "swing role" or "multirole". This has nothing to do with range/endurance. The IAF has attacked Pakistan with Vampires, Mysteres and Hunters and MiG 21s and have even used Gnats for escorts. Just ask Google chacha for the ranges/endurance of these aircraft - or simply buy and read Jagan Mohan's earlier book about the 1965 air war

 

[CuriousBen]

Mate this is not political thread. So please do not spoil it. We have plenty AAP miracle promotional threads. You may also open new thread as DFI gives one liberty to have new thread for specific discussions in political forum.

Let me clarify that I am not any political entho or supporter. You should read the messages properly before deriving the conclusions
Your statement of spoiling is outright wrong and not acceptable, discouraging. Others in the forum have used unacceptable foul language at times, and I have not done anything as such, neither have I presisted with any continues ranting of anything. Rather the decorum is maintained.

other hand, your statement cements the chalta hai attitude about corruption and loss to exchequer and what can i do attitude it seems , so carry on with it.
The impression from your spolit statement is ,since discussing money /corruption ( accordingly political) is ecomonics and not a technical defence booster , you view that economical discussion of the tejas spoil the forum.

My views are simple.

now tradtionally we indians have been good spectators and good at debating.The wealth of information in this forum should be put to better use in a national awakening sense whereby india could save on bilions of dollars.
for your gods sake , saving at least 10 billion dollars might get us 2 additional vikramadityas to say thel east.

So wheres the politics involved ?