ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[ersakthivel]

Broadsword: Broadsword quiz... level "challenging". What is happening in this photo?

Broadsword said...
OKAY, FOLKS... CLEARLY THIS IS A LOST CAUSE! JUST ONE PERSON HAS COME ANYWHERE NEAR THE TRUTH... AND THAT IS ANANDAN (GOLD STAR HEREBY AWARDED TO HIM).

SO HERE IS THE CORRECT ANSWER: THIS AIRCRAFT --- PV1 --- IS BEING MODIFIED FOR THE ELECTRONIC WARFARE ROLE.

OLD SOLDIERS DO NOT DIE. THEY JUST START RADIATING...!

this is what he posted exactly after all the 95 people failed to guess what was happening on the PV-1.


I found the link from where I got the stuff.the above is the link.

So defcon You can rest assured that I am not posting bunkum and pure speculative lies .
I have no intention of misinforming the members and lying through the teeth or nose ,whatever.

So finally TEJAS is liberated from the blot called lesser powered radar , and the false stories that it is unfit to carry long range BVR.

 

[ersakthivel]

UFO sightings in Ladakh spook Army soldiers | idrw.org
what is this?

 

[charlyondfi]

... I never said that this is an "EW suite" being fitted on the LCA. I said that this was PV-1 being modified for an EW role...

With all due respect to your passion to LCA, I tend to say it's still a speculation & assumption too much to support LCA can count on itself for a full squadron to fire BVR missile, just with such a vague statement of "... PV-1 being modified for an EW role".

There are so many "EW role" in air warfare. I believe you know that.

Again, said, why not put all these potential or what you believe LCA can do in separate thread. Putting every clue of speculation is really too confusing for this thread. IMO

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I hope i didn't misunderstood, does ew here meant for dedicated EW bird ?

Also AFAIK LCA have to pass BVR role too and Debry was selected for LCA officially, Soon or latter it have to go for such tests there is no assumptions for that..

With all due respect to your passion to LCA, I tend to say it's still a speculation & assumption too much to support LCA can count on itself for a full squadron to fire BVR missile, just with such a vague statement of "... PV-1 being modified for an EW role".

There are so many "EW role" in air warfare. I believe you know that. IMO

 

[rahulrds1]

Not the point. You need to post links which prove that there are concrete plans to build EW LCA. Otherwise, everything that you say is just speculation.

Ministry of Defence,MOD-Government of India, Annual Report 2011-2012
"Electronic Warfare (EW) Suite for LCA Advanced EW suite for LCA is under development as a joint development programme between DRDO and M/s Elisra. The Suite consists of signal processor, transmitters and other LRU's. The system is being installed in LCA Tejas PV-I to evaluate the performance during flight. Aircraft is being integrated with EW system."

Advanced Systems Integration and Evaluation Organisation (ASIEO) of Bangalore developes the electronic warfare suite for LCA.

 

[p2prada]

People are getting confused between the terms Electronic Warfare (broad term) and Electronic Attack (part of Electronic Warfare). Even releasing chaff is Electronic Attack. Every fighter can do that. Hence every fighter is capable of Electronic Warfare.

Studying electronic signals is also Electronic Warfare and comes under the category of Electronic warfare support.

Protection from enemy jamming is called Electronic protection or ECCM.

It's like you throw a term called Electronic Warfare into a discussion and everything falls into place, even when basic terms are not known. That's plain dumb.

If you are looking at LCA performing a specialized role like Prowler or Growler, then it does not exist. If you are looking at LCA performing Electronic support and self protection, then it exists on every modern aircraft and is a minimum requirement for a modern 4 or 4.5th generation fighter. A modern but generic capability for electronic attack is being worked on for the LCA Mk2. LCA Mk1 will not be capable of ECM (jamming), it is not planned. LCA Mk2 will be capable of ECM in the self protection role.

ECM or in other words, jamming, has existed on many aircraft since the 80s.
One such example is the ASPJ.
AN/ALQ-165 Airborne Self Protection Jammer (ASPJ)

F-15, ALQ-135
AN/ALQ-135

As of today, only MKI is most probably planned to have "stand off capability" using the high powered SAP-14 pod in the IAF.

 

[ersakthivel]

With all due respect to your passion to LCA, I tend to say it's still a speculation & assumption too much to support LCA can count on itself for a full squadron to fire BVR missile, just with such a vague statement of "... PV-1 being modified for an EW role".

There are so many "EW role" in air warfare. I believe you know that.

Again, said, why not put all these potential or what you believe LCA can do in separate thread. Putting every clue of speculation is really too confusing for this thread. IMO

I never said that LCA is in squadron service with all these stuff already.

But once a higher powered 90+kn GE-414 engine goes into it ,remaining validation of parameters will be a routine.
It has gone through 2000 flight hours of testing already,with a lesser 80+kn powered Ge-404 engine.
The Ge-414 engine is already selected for the TEJAS.
SO once the validation of platform is complete ,all other weapon systems like ASEA or long range BVR will be integerated into it.
And EW support craft in the form of modified LCA or dedicated RAFALE will be availabe not only to LCA ,but all the fighters of IAF.

SO I see no point in separating these subsymtem assemblies to be discussed in another thread.

Since the nuclear tests and nuclear deal with US india is the only country in the world which is being offered top notch military hardware by RUSSIANS,AMERICANS,FRENCH,GERMANY AND BRITAIN.

SO if there are shortfalls in indigenous asea program the french can be approached.Since we buy meteor for rafale which is 40 percent EADS product, buying METEOR for LCA won't be difficult.

Unlike shy SUKHOI COMMANDERS of IAF,the RAFALE commanders won't hesitate to give BVR locks to LCA

 

[rahulrds1]

Ministry of Defence,MOD-Government of India, Annual Report 2011-2012

"The first fully modified Aircraft for Advanced EW suite for LCA is under development as a joint development programme between DRDO and M/s Elisra. The Suite consists of signal processor, transmitters and other LRU's. The system is being installed in LCA Tejas PV-I to evaluate the performance during flight. Aircraft is being integrated with EW system."

Advanced Systems Integration and Evaluation Organisation (ASIEO) of Bangalore developes the electronic warfare suite for LCA.

source: official ministry of defense website

 

[ersakthivel]

People are getting confused between the terms Electronic Warfare (broad term) and Electronic Attack (part of Electronic Warfare). Even releasing chaff is Electronic Attack. Every fighter can do that. Hence every fighter is capable of Electronic Warfare.

Studying electronic signals is also Electronic Warfare and comes under the category of Electronic warfare support.

Protection from enemy jamming is called Electronic protection or ECCM.

It's like you throw a term called Electronic Warfare into a discussion and everything falls into place, even when basic terms are not known. That's plain dumb.

If you are looking at LCA performing a specialized role like Prowler or Growler, then it does not exist. If you are looking at LCA performing Electronic support and self protection, then it exists on every modern aircraft and is a minimum requirement for a modern 4 or 4.5th generation fighter. A modern but generic capability for electronic attack is being worked on for the LCA Mk2. LCA Mk1 will not be capable of ECM (jamming), it is not planned. LCA Mk2 will be capable of ECM in the self protection role.

ECM or in other words, jamming, has existed on many aircraft since the 80s.
One such example is the ASPJ.
AN/ALQ-165 Airborne Self Protection Jammer (ASPJ)

F-15, ALQ-135
AN/ALQ-135

As of today, only MKI is most probably planned to have "stand off capability" using the high powered SAP-14 pod in the IAF.

Then what is this?
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2011/02/broadsword-quiz-level-difficult-what-is.html
the report specifically mentions EW role,not ECCM or ECM.
And it also says it is being modified.

Broadsword: Broadsword quiz... level "challenging". What is happening in this photo?

That's what I said that with higher powered GE-414 engine it will be as capable as anyother fighter.

If 120 kn EPE version which is being evaluated for grippen finds it's way in LCA then it wil take LCA to a whole new level.

And dedicated low RCS crafts like modified RAFALE can give much better aiming capabilities to LCA's long range BVRs.

Your statement that Grippen has a bigger nose cone dia than LCA is wrong.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2011/04/designers-insist-tejas-will-belie-all.html

Your opinion that LCA mk-2 is only a marginally improved version of mk-1 is wrong too as per the above link.

 

[ersakthivel]

And it is not a rule that only modified LCA ew aicraft alone must fly with lca.Any low RCS craft like a few rafales suitably equiped for EW role will do.

 

[ersakthivel]

Ministry of Defence,MOD-Government of India, Annual Report 2011-2012

"The first fully modified Aircraft for Advanced EW suite for LCA is under development as a joint development programme between DRDO and M/s Elisra. The Suite consists of signal processor, transmitters and other LRU's. The system is being installed in LCA Tejas PV-I to evaluate the performance during flight. Aircraft is being integrated with EW system."

Advanced Systems Integration and Evaluation Organisation (ASIEO) of Bangalore developes the electronic warfare suite for LCA.

source: official ministry of defense website

So that is an official confirmation of what I said was posted in BROADSWORD by AJAI SHUKLA.
he is a reputed defence analyst, and the one by rahulrds1 is official confirmation.

It says a FULLY MODIFIED PV-1 FOR THE PURPOSE.

SO OFFICIALLY IT EXISTS.

it does not say that ECM,ECCM is added on to the existing PV-1 as implied by a member in this page.

It says a fully modified aircraft with dedicated Ew suite for the purpose.

It is incredible how people refute even official information as non existant.

 

[ersakthivel]

"The Tejas Mark I will expand its performance envelope to its full capability by end-2012. And a major performance boost will come from the Tejas Mark II's new GE-414 engine, which we have signed a US $700 million (Rs 3,135 crore) contract to build here in India. The Mark II will outperform the Mark I by about 15 per cent in the key aspects of take-off run, rate of climb, acceleration, and turn rate. Most of this would come from the higher thrust of the GE-414 engine. Another 2-3 per cent benefit would come from better aerodynamics"¦ since we will re-engineer the fighter to accommodate the new engine. That overall 35-40 per cent improvement would make the LCA the world's premier light fighter," says Subramanyam.

the info is from the above link.

Broadsword: Designers insist Tejas will belie all sceptical questioning

So mark-2 is not a cosmetic improvement over mk-1 as it is alleged.It will have all round performance increments with higher fuel load for more range and higer weaponload along with some aerodynamic improvemens.

It also clearly says that present LCA is flying within the 85 percent of it's actual potential capacity for flight tests.

The reason is till the completion of spin tets which test an aircraft's performance in near stall speeds no one will pull the max Gs and MAX AOA ,because it may lead to stall,if not handled properly.

As ADA has no experience in this flight regimen .It has asked consultancy from EADS for this spin test, and other crucial tests, to speed up flight testing.

Once these tests are done ,then only FBW restrictions can be removed allowing the aircraft to reach it's full potential specs.

That is the norm in every flight test program.

So accusing LCA as falling short of specs is premature and factually wrong.And the accusation that the "purported performance shortfalls" are due to inefficient overweight design is even more wrong.

Since the aircrfat has performed as predicted in the opened up envelope and achieved IOC,there may not be any big deviation in rest of the remaining 15 percent flight envelope as same laws of aerodynamics apply everywhere.

 

[ersakthivel]

Tejas - Feature - The Light Combat Aircraft Story by Air Marshal MSD Wollen (Retd)

The author, Air Marshal M.S.D. Wollen (Retd) was the chairman of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited from September 1984 to March 1988

From this link.

Delay in commencement of Project Definition (PD) gave ADA time to marshal national resources (80 work centers spread over the country); to construct buildings, recruit personnel and create infra-structure; and to get a clearer perspective of the advanced technologies that could be indigenously developed and those that would need to be imported. The IAF's Air Staff Requirement, finalized in October 1985 is the base document for development.

THe IAF's Air Staff Requirement, finalized in October 1985, is posted here with the authentic link.

The LCA is tailless with a double-sweep delta wing. Its wing span is 8.2 m, length 13.2 m, height 4.4 m. TOW clean 8.500 kg, MTOW 12500kg. It will be super-sonic at all altitudes, max speed of M 1.5 at the tropopause. Specific excess power and g-over load data has not been published. Maximum sustained rate of turn will be 17 deg per sec and maximum attainable 30 deg per sec.

So this is the actual document provided to ADA on 1993 as ASR.
Now the LCA has 14 ton mtow.
It has crossed 22 degree AOA within 85 percent of it's potential capacity with an underpowered 80 kn engine.

It's present targeted top speed is 1.2 mach at sea level.
At ceiling limit it is 1.8 mach.

Once the JV with snecma produces 90 kn engine, almost all subsystems on it will be indegenised.

SO this achievement is far and above the original specs mandated in the original ASR.

It will have substantially more top speed,more fuel load,more range,more MTOW, more STR,higher AOA,and asea radar and long range BVRs in the mk-2 version ,which won't need as much time consuming flight tests as mk-1.

It would have one of the least RCS fighters in IAF as well.

So this is a signifiant indicator of the basic aerodynamic potential of the design.

If ADA chose some long fuselage ,with high wingloading short wing design in place of the cranked delta,fully relaxed stability,carefree handling FBW,and composite materials(which is chosen by all 5th gens),

all the above specs would have been pipe dreams.

So the LCA that now flies is a completely different aircraft than the mig-21 replacement it was touted to be.
Now it's specs are near grippen C/D if the flight envelope is opened fully with lesser wing loading than grippen.

The mk-2 speca will be even more close to the NG specs.

So equating it with T-50 and calling it as a trainer is simply,belittling the program

 

[ersakthivel]

the old targets set for ADA is

top speed -1.5 mach.
tow clean -8.5 ton
MTOW-12.5 ton.
STR-17 degree.
maximum attainable 30 deg per sec.(clarification neede as what is this max attainable)

Now the specs are

top speed-mach-1.8
tow clean-9.5 tons.
Mtow-14.5 tons.
STR-(to be known once the flight envelope is fully opened and will be much better in the 90 kn mk-2)
ITR-still not released
AOA-28 deg targeted(22 achieved with partially opened flight envelope,with lower powered GE-404 engine)

So people can judge where the lca is now .it is no way a replacement for the older mig-21 as it is was envisaged at the start of the project.

 

[Defcon 1]

Broadsword: Broadsword quiz... level "challenging". What is happening in this photo?



this is what he posted exactly after all the 95 people failed to guess what was happening on the PV-1.


I found the link from where I got the stuff.the above is the link.

So defcon You can rest assured that I am not posting bunkum and pure speculative lies .
I have no intention of misinforming the members and lying through the teeth or nose ,whatever.

So finally TEJAS is liberated from the blot called lesser powered radar , and the false stories that it is unfit to carry long range BVR.

So? Col Shukla only said that LCA PV-1 will be tested for electronic warfare and you assumed that IAF is planning a dedicated EW LCA to function like mini AWACS? And what is with the UFO post? Look, try to post links which prove that IAF has plans to manufacture mini AWACS LCA. If you cannot do it this and continue to speculate more, then there is no way I can carry on with this discussion.

EW is a very broad term. It is possible that PV-1 was just being modified for research purposes and nothing else. If you keep banking on such thin sources, you will find it hard to convince people.

 

[Abhi9]

Got a part of The video of tejas on other forum. It has no audio


Also found a video by hal


Hope you guys like it

 

[ersakthivel]

So? Col Shukla only said that LCA PV-1 will be tested for electronic warfare and you assumed that IAF is planning a dedicated EW LCA to function like mini AWACS? And what is with the UFO post? Look, try to post links which prove that IAF has plans to manufacture mini AWACS LCA. If you cannot do it this and continue to speculate more, then there is no way I can carry on with this discussion.

col shukla says that it is being modified for the ew role ,not tested,Ofcoure the UFO link has nothing to do with it,pardon me

EW is a very broad term. It is possible that PV-1 was just being modified for research purposes and nothing else. If you keep banking on such thin sources, you will find it hard to convince people.

The research done is surely not for some academic purpose,AJAI SHUKLA says that the lady in the second picture actually heads the project,and he has visited the facilities where it is going on ,and had access to the personnel who are doing it.
There is no need for research either as DRDO labs have developed EW related equipments already for the home grown AEWCS on embraer

How many dedicated ew aircrafts the IAF has?
Things like dedicated ew aircraft are borne out of indigenous research, and if a successful model emerges IAF accepts it and refines tactics for them.
The indigenous AEWCs on embraer has the capabilities developed by DRDO labs and IAF accepts it and refines tactics for them.
AND ARIHANT too has whatever tech level the country has ,the navy fields it and refines tactics for them.
Because no one is selling them in open market.


RAHULRDS provided clarification from MOD annual report.
I read it on broadword blog,so I posted.
AJAISHUKLA posts 100 percent authentic stuff compared to some really dubious arguments advanced here on this thread like,
That there is no modified PV-1 for ew role unless and untill I provide proof,
and grippen has a larger nose cone dia than LCA,
MK-2 is a marginal improvement only over mk-1,
mk-1 is more obsolete than mig-21(which is 4th gen with upgrades),
light fighters cannot fire long range BVRs,
light fighters need no asea radar,
that the lca cannot achieve the parameters set in 1980s,totally concealing the fact that the present LCA is far more capable than whatever is proposed as mig-21 replacement then,
IF it doesn't have canards ,it is inferior in design,
Only fighters with long fuselage and short wings are good at dog fighting(completely oblivious to the fact that most of the 5th gen birds are low wing loading larger wing deltas),
Wing loading is related to passenger aircraft,
LCA hasn't crossed 16 degree AOA,
LCAA hasn't gone past mach 1.4 ,
and subsonic only at sea level,
LCA can carry only 2 (realistic) 4(optimistic) BVRs in air to air role,( 4 bvr missiles weighs around 800 kg,4 WVRs weigh around 200 odd kgs,so it can fly with only 1 ton payload for air to air,completely forgettting that there is something called multiple launcher racks, that can load as many bvrs as a pylon weight rating can support,which is seen in RAFALE thread)
LCA has cranked delta as it alone can afford it.
120 KN GE-414-EPE is a paper tiger
and a small fighter like TEJAS doesnot need it(ofcourse keeping quiet when I point out with source that same weight class fighter like GRIPPEN is evaluating the same engine for it's NG version, as it has the same form fit as 404),

I would be glad if you question the above points raised in this thread by a respectable member with same insistence on authenticity and probity.

Stuff like this won't find a place in BROADSWORD as the guy is a retired colonel with a reputation to defend.

THANKS.

 

[Defcon 1]

How many dedicated ew aircrafts the IAF has?
Things like dedicated ew aircraft are borne out of indigenous research, and if a successful model emerges IAF accepts it and refines tactics for them.
The indigenous AEWCs on embraer has the capabilities developed by DRDO labs and IAF accepts it and refines tactics for them.
AND ARIHANT too has whatever tech level the country has ,the navy fields it and refines tactics for them.
Because no one is selling them in open market.


RAHULRDS provided clarification from MOD annual report.
I read it on broadword blog,so I posted.
AJAISHUKLA posts 100 percent authentic stuff compared to some really dubious arguments advanced here on this thread like,
That there is no modified PV-1 for ew role unless and untill I provide proof,
and grippen has a larger nose cone dia than LCA,
MK-2 is a marginal improvement only over mk-1,
mk-1 is more obsolete than mig-21(which is 4th gen with upgrades),
light fighters cannot fire long range BVRs,
light fighters need no asea radar,
that the lca cannot achieve the parameters set in 1980s,totally concealing the fact that the present LCA is far more capable than whatever is proposed as mig-21 replacement then,
IF it doesn't have canards ,it is inferior in design,
Only fighters with long fuselage and short wings are good at dog fighting(completely oblivious to the fact that most of the 5th gen birds are low wing loading larger wing deltas),
Wing loading is related to passenger aircraft,
LCA hasn't crossed 16 degree AOA,
LCAA hasn't gone past mach 1.4 ,
and subsonic only at sea level,
LCA can carry only 2 (realistic) 4(optimistic) BVRs in air to air role,( 4 bvr missiles weighs around 800 kg,4 WVRs weigh around 200 odd kgs,so it can fly with only 1 ton payload for air to air,completely forgettting that there is something called multiple launcher racks, that can load as many bvrs as a pylon weight rating can support,which is seen in RAFALE thread)
LCA has cranked delta as it alone can afford it.
120 KN GE-414-EPE is a paper tiger
and a small fighter like TEJAS doesnot need it(ofcourse keeping quiet when I point out with source that same weight class fighter like GRIPPEN is evaluating the same engine for it's NG version, as it has the same form fit as 404),

I would be glad if you question the above points raised in this thread by a respectable member with same insistence on authenticity and probity.

Stuff like this won't find a place in BROADSWORD as the guy is a retired colonel with a reputation to defend.

THANKS.

You do one thing. You tell me the name of a single person(except you of course) who is ready to believe that Mini AWACS is being developed for production. There is no point in repeating the same things. And yes, there is no modified AWACS LCA unless you provide proof. And you are terribly mistaken if you think that a random comment on a blog can be taken as proof. This is the practice of pakistanis on PDF. If you are gonna continue like this, you may as well try visiting that forum as it is filled by people who literally burn pages of discussions by relying on such sources. You cannot convince a single person on this forum using these lengthy posts and blabbering. This discussion is over from my side. I would appreciate it if you don't reply to this post as well.

The reason I don't question senior members is because they have credibility. You, on the other hand have destroyed whatever u had by showing me that you rely on such sources. Its simple, a weapon doesn't exists till we have some proof to confirm its existence. Mini AWACS LCA doesn't exists at this moment, bring me proof and I will believe you. Otherwise, you can keep on asking these question and no one will care about them.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

There is nothing call as 'Mini AWACS LCA ' but what is said Advance Internal EW suit..

 

[p2prada]

Stuff like this won't find a place in BROADSWORD as the guy is a retired colonel with a reputation to defend.

Therefore U-turn Karnal.