ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[p2prada]

The type is scheduled to achieve the second phase of its troubled initial operational clearance (IOC-2) by September 2013.

Hmm, now that's a full one year away.

The previous date was "by March" just one month ago.
I am not surprised, obviously.

 

[ersakthivel]

These dates don't mean a thing.The F-16 was inducted with in 3 years of it's initial flight.If IAF is really concerned with decreasing fleeet numbers it should firm up orderrs so that 200 GE engines are ordered.Upto now the aircraft has closely followed the design parameters inflight testing.


It will continue to do so till FOC.First the IAF should ask MOD to lobby with US to get 120 kn GE 4141 EPE engine for mk-II.I'm sure if such a huge volume of orders are given The americans will surely oblige.Giving 20+20+83 like orders won't do.

If IAF has any doubts about the aircraft it can ask it's test pilots who are involved with the aircraft for the past 10 years about any insurmountable problems.Whether it follows in design parameters through out the flight test programme or there are any issues regarding it's safety of flight and how it behaved within it's partially opened flight envelope.

Or it can ask an international team of experts to go through for independant evaluation of LCA much like third party evaluation of ARJUN.

While continuing with risky fighters like MIG-21 and MIG-27, knowing fully well their dubiuos engine tech , for decades IAF is really splitting it's hair on a brand new fighter tech with worlds most reliable GE engine.out of the 950+MIGS inducted 450 plus have crashed before the end of their service life.

In the past 4 years alone 68 IAF fighters are lost most of them MIGs17 IAF pilots have lost their life.IAF keeps on ordering rafales and sukhois and updates JAgs and MIG-29s. But when it comes to LCA there is a huge mind block. They have an unshakable belief that something will always go wrong.

There is no big drag issue at all.People arguing with CEMILAC report by S>K>JEBAKUMAR which says there is a sudden increase n coss section between x=5000 mm to x=6000 mm should realize all delta canrds like

grippen,J-10,and J-20 and RAFALE will have even worser sudden increase in cross section than LCA at the point of canard s starting.
Much worse is the fact after the end point of canadrs on the fuselage there will be come drop in cross section against whitcomb's rule.

These aircrafts are all flying fine with no drag issue. SO there will be no problem with tejas mk-II if 100kn or 120 kn engine is given.
Firming up 200 orders for tejas will do a world of good for both IAF,HAL and the future of indian aerospace industry.These tejas fighters will be upgradable with AMCA engine and missiles and fly by light tech with ring laser gyros and all electrical actuators.

Also expecting HAL to make SUKHOI,PAKFA,RAFALE,ALH,LCA all simultaneously and churn them out is faster is also unrealistic.
If possible GOI should ask some more rafales to be produced in france and speed up sukhoi and LCA production in HAL.
The LCA mk-1 and II can share the same production line as there will be marginal differences only.

Nothing much is learnt by HAL in license producing 1000s of mig-21s,27s,29s and sukhois.Now sukhoi is produced from raw material stage in HAl. The KORAPUT ,KANPUR factory is producing engines from raw material stage.

BUt still we have not learnt anything regarding single crystal birds tech for KAVERI engine. SO not a world of knowledge will seep through for HAL by license producing RAFALE.
MOD should ask HAL to speed up the LCA production by setting up another line.

 

[ersakthivel]

only validation of existing parameters and spin recovery tests are needed to be done.No major re engineering is on the cards for IOC-2.ADA has already said that LSP -7 is closest to the production model..

 

[ersakthivel]

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Tejas@10: Are we a Nation who don't care for our heroes?

If you go to this link and read the interview of KOTA HARINARAYAA",THE MAKER OF TEJAS WE CAN ALL SEE HOW WE TREAT OUR HEROES.

how the program was about to be closed after a delgation of MPs visited the ADA facilities with the view of closing the program?

And How RATAN TATA intervened and saved the program being closed?.Not many would hav e known how ADA was treated with disbelief and disrespect from the start.
People who are questioning why TEJAS is late and tom tooming it is 30 years late should read this stuff before making comments.


Light Combat Aircraft [LCA] Tejas: the people & their pursuit (weekend reading) - AA Me, IN.


Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: 3. Surviving Sanctions only to become World-Beaters: Tracking the fly-by-wire FCS story from ADE (Part-III-A)
Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: World-Beaters: The fly-by-wire FCS will take India to new heights (Part-III-B)
Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: World-Beaters: The fly-by-wire FCS will take India to new heights (Part-III-B)



The above two links give authentic info about LCA's flyby wire tech, people worked under what conditions to achiev it.
In 1993 the fly by wire team had 4 designers and four testers and the demeaning working condition they were working in.
"WORKING IN A REMOTE BUILDING LITTERED WITH SNAKES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

WHILE government poured thousands of crores on decrepit russian fighters,
just 8 guys were fearing snakes in 1993.They were the FCS team!!!!!!!!!!!

There were snakes and no one is allowed to be iinside the premises after 6.00 P.M.
Once ABDUL KALAM during a visit personaly encountered snakes and then only thins changed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Here people are saying billions of dollars were poured into tejas by 1993 and every one in ADA is incompetent,while 8 people of fly by wire team were fielding snakes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This was how the program was treated by IAF and MOD.

This link gives deep info all original ,(not somebody's imagination) reports about tejas.

 

[ersakthivel]

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Tejas Pilots' Hall of Fame: Meet the stars who touched the skies with glory; IOC for LCA today
these are all the test pilots who flew LCA.Before making ignorant comments like MIG-21+++ ,IAF could have asked these guys how reliable the LCA was.

Sure these guys risked their lifes in 2000 flights(not higher compared to the risks taken by 450+ odd mig pilots I think,Infact these guys could have lost their lives on migs.So in IAF unlike other forces a test pilot's job is less risky than normal pilots job!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
People who keep quarelling it is ywt to get IOC can ask these guys ehat are it's short commings.

REAL HEROES of LCA TEJAS who made it apilot's aircraft, instead of denigrating the LCA before the whole world as MIG-21++, ACM NAIK could have asked these guys who were instrumental in the project.
When every one was crying shut LCA,shut LCA,these men risked their lives daily to put it in the air and even KOTA HARINARAYANA acknowledges that these IAF test pilots are the real heroes of the program.SO one part of IAF is criticising the program like anything and these guys were braving their lives to make it a reality.

 

[ersakthivel]

In the interview with fly by wire team guys some have reported even prospective brides vanished once they heard the name LCA ruining their marriage prospects.
Every one including their friends criticized them for staying on. ANd stayed on they did and completed this first fighter for the nation which is as world clawss any othre single engined fighters.

 

[rahulrds1]

Information about GE-414-EPE(120 KN) engine, which can be used for Navy-LCA production model as Form/Fit with 414-400 engine.
(PDF from boeing.com,
www.boeing.com/AeroIndia2011/pdf/Aero_India_Super_Hornet_Briefing.pdf )

"¢ 120 KN(26,400 pounds, giving it an almost 11:1 thrust/weight ratio)
"¢ Form/Fit with 414-400 engine

"¢ No airframe changes

"¢ 20% Additional thrust

"¢ X2 Combat acceleration improvement
"¢ Significant air dominance capability increase
"¢ Offensive and defensive

"¢ Improved fuel burn
"¢ Aircraft interfaces remain identical
"¢ Based on a core demonstrated in multiple engine tests
"¢ 1% reduction in fuel burn
"¢ Improved coatings and cooling
"¢ Improved efficiency 3D Aero design
"¢ Higher airflow fan


www_boeing.com/AeroIndia2011/pdf/Aero_India_Super_Hornet_Briefing.pdf

 

[p2prada]

The engines ordered for the LCA Mk2 are the F-414-INS6. It is a ~100KN engine, or delivering 22000lbs of thrust according to the graph. The F-414 EPE is not even off the drawing board yet.

In the very pdf that rahul has posted, page 15 shows that EPE's technology has been validated with only around $80Million spent on it. EPE has been offered for Super Hornet customers who want to buy the "International" version. I suppose they are waiting for an export customer before starting development of the EPE. However Sweden may be interested in the EPE for the Gripen NG. So, we may see the EPE if Sweden decides on it.

In page 16 you will see F-414-INS6 being placed at the same level as the F-414-400 and the F-414 EDE(without the 15% increase in thrust).

 

[ersakthivel]

If the F-35 program is delayed EPE will go into sure hornets as upgrades.And if export order for hornets or for the engine is received in high numbers it will go into production.That is what the GE chief's comments.EPE's tech is already validated. It is just an upgrade over 414.Nothing bars IAF and MOD to lobby with US government through Indian govt for the engines .If IAF gives order for 200 LCA mk-Ii and GOI places order for 200 EPEs then engine can be a reality in LCA.

In the same PDF it says two dmonstration engine tests were done in 2004 and 2006 nd another sheduled for 2010.

1.6 successfull prototypes are already built
2.9 in production and operation
3.17 engines successfully delivered,with same tech level maturity delivered as sheduled.
SO it is no paper tiger as someone in the forum has suggested.

So if we don't give orders for this engine which has the same external dimensions as 414 IN then it is not GE's fault.Only ours.

Sweeden is also considering this engine for their GRIPPEN NG.So technically nothing bars this engine on LCA,ItIf it is not put in LCA the only reason will be

1.The IAF and MOD through Indian govt hasn't put enough pressure on US,by ordering the LCA in high numbers like 200.

2.The GE chief is willing to give the highest thrust variant of the Ge-414 series to india.If we don't press for it ,then whose mistake is it?

3.Strangely IAF which went to town to throw spanner on the works of GTRE-SNECMA jv saying it wont give enough thrust for LCA is keeping a stony silence on it.


Already the ge chief has said that onces sufficient orders are received we will start production.
ADA can use this engine as a second choice or back up for AMCA in case there is problem in future engine development for AMCA engine.

But every one is keeping silent untill now.

 

[ersakthivel]

Through out this thread many members ,(mainly P2PRADA)forcefully argued since LCA is not a twin engined heavy aircraft ,with a bigger radar
it has no chance of carrying a longer range BVR.

And there were many posts that long range missiles are developed with a particular fighter in mind, so that a single engine, small radar fighter cannot fire a long range BVR fired by twin engine heavy fighter.

They cited many examples in USAF to counter my argument that "if a pylon has strength enough to carry a 300 kg missile LCA can carry it and fire it with the help of EW craft accompanying it".

The grippen is going to get METEOR long range BVRs first, which is going to be used by RAFALE and EUROFIGHTER.

GRIPPEN radar has almost half the range of EUROFIGHTER.


Now grippen which is almost in the same class and has a nose cone way smaller than the LCA tejas's radar is going to be the first fighter to get it.

How do people justify their arguments now?How is grippen with a smaller nose cone than LCA tejas will use the METEOR effectively?
Will if fire the missile via datalink provided by SAAB errie eye AEW craft or not?

Then why can't LCA do the same

PLEASE ANSWER

This is what Dr.SOMNATH posted on know your rafale thread ,an official pree release from MBDA.

Re: Know Your 'Rafale'

Delivery Nears For MBDA's New Missile

July 10, 2012
Long shrouded in official secrecy, the MBDA Meteor is now here. Development testing is complete, and customers are getting ready to take delivery of this game-changing missile.

For Europe's fighters it promises a capability without peer in air-to-air combat. MBDA's Meteor beyond visual range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) could become the discriminator in 21st-century air warfare, with the world divided between those who have it and those who do not.

The ramjet-powered Meteor delivers a combination of speed, range and lethality that is unmatched by any other fighter weapon in service – or in development. By the end of this year MBDA will be delivering the first real weapons that will go on to be carried by the Saab Gripen, Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale. Everyone else is playing catch-up.

It is a little over six years since MBDA fired the first Meteor. Since then MBDA has undertaken 21 test firings to complete the development program, and now the European firm is building the first production missiles. In the coming weeks MBDA will deliver the Meteor final performance statement to the international program office that will show that the missile is "fully compliant from a lethality and kinematic point of view," says Meteor chief engineer and project head Andy Bradford. "A very, very positive performance statement will be going to the partner nations."

"To support a particular customer milestone toward the end of this year we've already delivered ground handling training missiles which are required by the various authorities to practice with before they handle live ordnance," says Bradford. "The initial production of Meteor forebodies has started in Lostock [UK]. They then go through a build process that takes them to a short missile level with all their electronic and sensor subsystems, but no warhead or propulsion system. We test that, put it through a very stringent environmental screening process and then deliver to Henlow [UK], where eventually the warhead and engine are integrated."

"We are on schedule for deliveries to the UK toward the end of this year, and we have five of the partner nations on contract, so we have a significant production run ahead of us – and I think there is some real export interest starting to brew."

Germany is the last of the partner nations still to sign a Meteor production contract but, says Bradford, "the German discussions are very well advanced and we expect Germany to be on contract with us before the end of this year."

One contractual item still to be resolved is a full integration plan for the Eurofighter Typhoon. The UK is the Meteor program lead and the Typhoon was supposed to be the first aircraft equipped with the new missile. The UK has an ambition to be operational with Meteor in 2015, but that requires a level of integration work that is not yet under way.

Says Bradford, "At the moment, we have an enabling contract, in advance of the main integration program, which is de-risking that program." If that main contract is signed, then the Typhoon will gain Meteor capability around 2015-16, says MBDA.





The first operational Meteor air force will be Sweden. "We will deliver missiles to Saab this summer, which will be used for Gripen firings in the first half of next year for their own integration program," Bradford says. "We have a production schedule agreed with Sweden, and that integration program through FMV and Saab backs into the Swedish timeframe, which is about 2014." In fact, FMV has talked about having Meteor operational on the Gripen by 2013.

France is working to a longer-term requirement than the other European nations, with an in-service date for Dassault's Rafale expected around 2018.

"On Rafale we have a requirement for when French production deliveries will start," says Bradford. "We are just completing the first phase of Rafale integration and the next phase will follow next year. That continues for two or three years with a number of firings from Rafale, and we will finish well in advance of the required French delivery program."

Delivery Nears For MBDA's New Missile

 

[ersakthivel]

in today's indian express article by RITU SHARMA newspaper IAF chief BROWNE said that LCA is about to participate in the exercise.
He also said DRDO is yet to sign the engine contract with GE for the engine.
SO contract for 100 kn engine is not signed it seems. Only selection made.
So we can utilize GE chief statement that they can deliver the highest variant GE engine for LCA i.e 120 Kn EPE

 

[SATISH]

Why would DRDO sign a contract with the GE musn't it be the HAL?

 

[p2prada]

Developer signs the deal because they need the engine to flight test it. The manufacturer will sign a separate deal with ADA to transfer the engines to their control during manufacturing.

Even the previous contract for F-404s was signed between ADA and GE.

 

[ersakthivel]

So if the IAf insists on EPE 0f 120 kn for lca mk-II ,then it can ask MOD to ask the GE for Ge-414-EPE.WHoever signs the contract is immaterial,I think with 120 KN thrust TEJAS will be as good as rafale in TWR and top speeds and in many parameters within it's load carrying capacity and unrefuelled range, a shot in the arm for depleting sqn strength of IAf and it will have very good export potential coupled with ASTRA mk-I and Mk-II missiles and asea radar in future.

It will usher in the modern aviation era for india.

Also with this excess thrust of 120 kn it's stealth version in mk_III will be a raelity.

SInce grippen is the first fighter to receive the long range meteor missile LCA too can carry 200 km + BVRs in future.

Since tejas LCA is already designed with reduced RCS in mind and huge wing area in relation to fuselage adding conformal weapon bays wil be easy, and since it already has Y duct intake sheilding the engine face no serpentine intakes will be neccassary.

And it can be done in double quick time, and may enter service just 5 or 6 years after J-20,giving a huge morale boost for IAF.It will be the only airforce in the world that will receive 3 5th gen fighters PAKFA,LCA mk-III,AMCA in the same order within 2030, paving it's transformation into true 5th gen airforce, on par with china.

So instead of criticizing ADA for no end people in the decision making positions should seize the oppurtunity to consolidate the gains of LCA tejas program into future 5th gen program.

 

[ersakthivel]

Hi bachchu yadav,
what are your thoughts on EPE of 120 kn for tejas?
Do you think it is possible?

 

[ersakthivel]

Radar-fitted Tejas this year - Page 8 - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums

Radar-fitted Tejas this year - Page 9 - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums

Some very interesting discussions on tejas sea level topspeeds and why there are no supposed drag issues in tejas from discussions in the above thread.



Tejas' non-peak performance at sea-level was found unsatisfactory.
the dry thrust of the F2J3 engines is used.
the F2J3 has a dry thrust of only 48 kN, as compared to 54 kN of Gripen-C's RM12 engine.
This 12% lesser thrust is 'solely' responsible for the Tejas' low non-peak performance at sea-level at Arakkonam.



Even with a modest AAM load the MiG-29 can reach no more than Mach 1,1 at sea-level for a very short time in full burner at best. So the practical value for an armed MiG-29 is ~Mach 1,1 at best. In max dry it is ~Mach 0,9 at best.
About that there is not much difference between the state of the art fighters.

figures as shown at ILA 2008, It clears all wrong speculation about the empty weight increase for the LCA.

image

Empty Weight: 5685 kg
Max. Takeoff weight: 13500 kg
Internal: 2485 kg (fuel)
External: 2812 kg (fuel)

AT empty equipped with all fluids loaded, it will come around 6.5 tons or so. ADA says that some telemetry equipment removals and avionics display re engineering will knock off another 750 kgd.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

SP's Aviation, October 2012, IAF modernisation :

 

[acetophenol]

How many hours can Tejas stay air borne?

MOD Edit: Try to capitalize proper nouns. Be extra careful with opening posts.

 

[acetophenol]

pls reply,its a question i am seeking answer for a lng time

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Range is given as 3000 km. Endurance must be a function of cruising speed and range. Max speed is 1 990 - 2 376 km/h.

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