ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[ersakthivel]

After fatal crash, IAF grounds 100 MiG-27s - Indian Express

AFter fatal crashes and insurmountable problems in R-29 engines IAF is grounding the entire fleet of 100 MiG-27s.

With 100 such aircrafts in it's stables , daily risking the life of every pilot who flies on it,it is incredulous for IAF to criticize LCA MK-I as obsolete.

All five squadrons of the ground attack fighter, deployed primarily in the western and eastern sectors, have been confined to the ground since the February 16 crash in which a Squadron Leader was killed.

India had procured 120 of the fighter aircraft from Russia in the late 1980s and had started production in India at the Nashik HAL factory. The IAF has lost close to 35 of the aircraft to accidents in the past two decades.

With the grounding, the MiG-27 aircraft will not take part in the mega Vayushakti exercise that has been planned for this Sunday.

Till the crash last week, the MiG-27 had been planned as one of the main attractions of the major exercise that will witness more than 100 aircraft in the skies performing multiple operations, including precision-guided bombing and mock aerial combat. The MiG-27 will now be the only fighter in the IAF's inventory not to take part in the exercise.

He added that the second crash last week, in which a MiG-21 went down, was due to a sudden loss of engine power but investigations on the cause were still on.

Some people here who are shedding crocodile tears for the life of INDIAN FIGHTER PILOTS should stand up and say something about ,how such faulty engined aircrafts entered the IAF?

Whetehr they all matched the IAF's ASR? where they put through IOC-1,IOC-2,then FOC?

And whether they encountered harsh criticism from IAF top brass?

why were issue relating to R-29 could not be sorted out?

And what are the status of current MIG-21 bison engine?

Then why are they criticizing LCA mk-I as MIG-21++?

With these kind of engine tech will flight global ,Austin still stand by his claim that MIG-21 Upgraded has made them 4TH GEN much better than LCA?

The mig -21 engines too will have the same tech levels of R-29 engines.

Now do you know why the KAVERY development was spearheaded?

Since western nations won't give us engine tech because we are in USSR camp,what are the options for ADA?

Now you can pretty much understand that why ADA didnot consider any russian engine of that time for LCA?

Will airwarfare experts like P2PRADA answer this post? Will they still maintain that MIG-21 Bisons upgraded are 4th gen? superior than
90+ kn GE engine
full digital FCS ,
tailless cranked delta,
low wingloading,
3.5 ton weapon carrying LCA mk-1 from ADA ,
whose weight can be further reduced with composites according to CEMILAC report by DR. S.K.JEBAKUMAR
which can be upgraded further to fly by light FCS ,electrical actuaors of the tech from AMCA
along with AESA?

 

[Defcon 1]

@Ersakthivel

In my previous post, I asked you to prove three things:

1. IAF has a specific doctrine of using AWACS along with LCA in all operations.
2. LCA's RCS is as low as you claim it to be.
3. That IAF's consent is not required for inducting LCA MKIII

You did not prove any of those things, instead you gave ambiguous replies in an evasive gesture, and that was right before you shamelessly retracted from your ignorant comment about MKI being a Strike fighter. Look man, I understand that the only reason you come on this forum is to show how knowledgeable you are, which as it turns out, you are not. Fortunately for me, I don't come here to get an ego boost. If all that matters to you is winning an argument, I will yield happily. Because I am allergic to BS and I can't you making stories out of thin air. This discussion is over. Do not reply to this post.

And yes, I stand by my claim that IAF has ordered only 40 LCA MK1. The additional 20 are of MkII version.

Live long and Prosper.

 

[p2prada]

And yes, I stand by my claim that IAF has ordered only 40 LCA MK1. The additional 20 are of MkII version.

Live long and Prosper.

20 IOC Mk1s were ordered in 2005 and a follow on 20 was ordered for FOC in 2009. People confused this second order of 20 to be the Mk2. As of today, IAF has not placed an order for LCA Mk2, but has an interest in ordering 83 Mk2s.

So, 40 concrete orders followed by 83 yet to be ordered aircraft. That's 123 aircraft in 6 squadrons by, hopefully, 2022.

The Navy has placed an order for 6 Mk2s in comparison.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

LCA MK-1 is Multi-role 4gen fighter..

Fighter mainly work with Ground radar control during interception whose range is from 400km to 1000kms, AWACS is used with fighter in very different environment such as strike missions, beyond the range of ground radars where AWACS are needed, AESA AWACS also provide EW capability to strike force or interception teams..

 

[Defcon 1]

20 IOC Mk1s were ordered in 2005 and a follow on 20 was ordered for FOC in 2009. People confused this second order of 20 to be the Mk2. As of today, IAF has not placed an order for LCA Mk2, but has an interest in ordering 83 Mk2s.

So, 40 concrete orders followed by 83 yet to be ordered aircraft. That's 123 aircraft in 6 squadrons by, hopefully, 2022.

The Navy has placed an order for 6 Mk2s in comparison.

Thanks for the correction.

LCA MK-1 is Multi-role 4gen fighter..

Fighter mainly work with Ground radar control during interception whose range is from 400km to 1000kms, AWACS is used with fighter in very different environment such as strike missions, beyond the range of ground radars where AWACS are needed, AESA AWACS also provide EW capability to strike force or interception teams..

My point is that it is not necessary that LCA will always have AWACS cover. If that was the case, LCA could do without radar and would have very bad radar. The radar should be good enough to match other fighters even without AWACS cover.

 

[ersakthivel]

@Ersakthivel

In my previous post, I asked you to prove three things:

1. IAF has a specific doctrine of using AWACS along with LCA in all operations.
2. LCA's RCS is as low as you claim it to be.
3. That IAF's consent is not required for inducting LCA MKIII

You did not prove any of those things, instead you gave ambiguous replies in an evasive gesture, and that was right before you shamelessly retracted from your ignorant comment about MKI being a Strike fighter. Look man, I understand that the only reason you come on this forum is to show how knowledgeable you are, which as it turns out, you are not. Fortunately for me, I don't come here to get an ego boost. If all that matters to you is winning an argument, I will yield happily. Because I am allergic to BS and I can't you making stories out of thin air. This discussion is over. Do not reply to this post.

And yes, I stand by my claim that IAF has ordered only 40 LCA MK1. The additional 20 are of MkII version.

Live long and Prosper.

DEAR defcon,
]I have no intention of taking factual discussions to personal accusations. Even though it adds some vigour to the debate.It demeans the forum.
SO unless provoked I don't play this game , which I hate.

1.AS I said earlier AWACS guards airspace.
Even if IAF doesn't uses awcas with LCA LCA mk-1 PV-1 prototype is being modified for ew warfare.SO that will do for LCA.Go google out find it.

And fighters fly in mixed group to maximize their strength.

If you go to details regarding red flag exercise, you can see under the guise of SUKHOI's jamming even using training frequencies,the mig -21s sneaked in to score kills on UASF. why do people do exercise like this. If they want don't want to do it in real life?

Be cool and think about. If there is any mistake in it , post it and I will acknowledge.

I always consider the other guy as intelligent if not more than me in any conversation unless the other guy starts accusing me personally..

2. I am no authority on LCA's RCS. YOU quoted toan saying that RCS of grippen is half of mirage.

P2 prada said that RCS of LCA is third of mirage according to ADA official.

The RAFALE makers say it has an RCS a tenth of MIRAGE.

(The poor Mirage gets badgered as no one is there to defend it.)

But both grippen and RAFAle predates LCA design by 10 years.

Both claim the same techniques of radar bouncing,contouring, shaping the jutting angles,using RAMS to spike the RCS.

ADA also claims the same tech. Kunal posted a detail link on the subject of the ADA tech.

Dr KOTA HARINARAYAN said LCA TEJAS has the smallest RCS of any fighter other than very LO stealth.
It is physically also the smallest.

It does not have canards.
It's intake is shaped as Y duct to hide the compressor blade.
And it has no tails.Vertical stabilizer like tail does not return high RCS in frontal direction as it id plane is perpendicular to the oncomming RADAR waves.
So have your own conclusions in this regard.
Or please post what are the extra special RCS reduction methods used by RAFALE and GRIPPEN over LCA.
i too will be delighted to know it as it will help ADA in designing MK-II.
Or please point out the pit falls of ADA's RCS reduction tech.

3.Today AWACS is introduced to IAF ,what is the IAF ASR for that?
I don't wish that no one will push LCA into IAF's throat as an incomplete product.
If it is comparable and as good as any other fighter within it's unrefuelled range, it will be IAF's job to explain why they are refusing it.


Also please read the the following passage and answer the questions at last.
Re: ADA Tejas (LCA) - III

After fatal crash, IAF grounds 100 MiG-27s - Indian Express

AFter fatal crashes and insurmountable problems in R-29 engines IAF is grounding the entire fleet of 100 MiG-27s.

With 100 such aircrafts in it's stables , daily risking the life of every pilot who flies on it,it is incredulous for IAF to criticize LCA MK-I as obsolete.

All five squadrons of the ground attack fighter, deployed primarily in the western and eastern sectors, have been confined to the ground since the February 16 crash in which a Squadron Leader was killed.

India had procured 120 of the fighter aircraft from Russia in the late 1980s and had started production in India at the Nashik HAL factory. The IAF has lost close to 35 of the aircraft to accidents in the past two decades.

With the grounding, the MiG-27 aircraft will not take part in the mega Vayushakti exercise that has been planned for this Sunday.

Till the crash last week, the MiG-27 had been planned as one of the main attractions of the major exercise that will witness more than 100 aircraft in the skies performing multiple operations, including precision-guided bombing and mock aerial combat. The MiG-27 will now be the only fighter in the IAF's inventory not to take part in the exercise.

He added that the second crash last week, in which a MiG-21 went down, was due to a sudden loss of engine power but investigations on the cause were still on.

Some people here who are shedding crocodile tears for the life of INDIAN FIGHTER PILOTS should stand up and say something about ,how such faulty engined aircrafts entered the IAF?

Whetehr they all matched the IAF's ASR? where they put through IOC-1,IOC-2,then FOC?

And whether they encountered harsh criticism from IAF top brass?

why were issue relating to R-29 could not be sorted out?

And what are the status of current MIG-21 bison engine?

Then why are they criticizing LCA mk-I as MIG-21++?

With these kind of engine tech will flight global ,Austin still stand by his claim that MIG-21 Upgraded has made them 4TH GEN much better than LCA?

The mig -21 engines too will have the same tech levels of R-29 engines.

Now do you know why the KAVERY development was spearheaded?

Since western nations won't give us engine tech because we are in USSR camp,what are the options for ADA?

Now you can pretty much understand that why ADA didnot consider any russian engine of that time for LCA?

Will airwarfare experts like P2PRADA answer this post? Will they still maintain that MIG-21 Bisons upgraded are 4th gen? superior than
90+ kn GE engine
full digital FCS ,
tailless cranked delta,
low wingloading,
3.5 ton weapon carrying LCA mk-1 from ADA ,
whose weight can be further reduced with composites according to CEMILAC report by DR. S.K.JEBAKUMAR
which can be upgraded further to fly by light FCS ,electrical actuaors of the tech from AMCA
along with AESA?

I never intend to take things to personal level. Please go through my entire post and point out where I offended you. Evem if there is one instance I am ready to appologize.
Internet is a boundless universe of borderless knowledge.
This marvel was denied to all our previous generations.
Now we are using it in a knowledgable way .
We don't have to pick our personal fights here.

may defcon1 too live long and prosper. I wish nothing else.

 

[ersakthivel]

Thanks for the correction.



My point is that it is not necessary that LCA will always have AWACS cover. If that was the case, LCA could do without radar and would have very bad radar. The radar should be good enough to match other fighters even without AWACS cover.

Then why are americans and NATO allies ordering 1700 F-35 single engined fighters when they have twin engined F-22.

WHy did US make F-16 till last year and still have then in the airforce when they have F-15 eagle twin engined, which will have more powerful radar.
Bigger fighters with bigger radar will have bigger radar signature and bigger IR signature. So a mix is always preferable both operationally and economically.

Also numbers are so important for any aorforce.
In airwar once ew parity is there it is the number of fighters that are going to determine the winner.
A smaller fighter can be engineered to decent specs and if they go in pair against a bigger single twin engined fighter, who will have the advantage?
Also it is astonishing that you have already concluded that Aesa radar on LCA to be obsolete!!!
WIll you say the sane for F-35 and F-16 and GRIPPEN?
No one even knows how much power TEJAS mk-II will give it to ASEA.
And if lengthened nose cone with much bigger radom dia, if swash plate type of grippen is adopted there is a scope for huge boost if IAF is interested.

 

[p2prada]

My point is that it is not necessary that LCA will always have AWACS cover. If that was the case, LCA could do without radar and would have very bad radar. The radar should be good enough to match other fighters even without AWACS cover.

AEWC are used for airwarfare, for strike it depends on how good the enemy radar and EW is. Or else AEWC will be too close to the enemy.

As the name itself indicates, AEW is an Early warning system, like satellites which detect missile launches. Expecting it to fight wars just shows how poorly educated people can be when talking about things they don't understand.

If AWACS cover is guaranteed, then LCA does not even need a radar. Let's forget the fact that you need X band to actually seek out and destroy targets. LCA can use it's so called "low" RCS without carrying any missiles to sneak in closer and simply get into dog fights, WW2 style, regardless of the fact that the newer aircraft will have superior maneuverability while carrying missiles.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

My point is that it is not necessary that LCA will always have AWACS cover. If that was the case, LCA could do without radar and would have very bad radar. The radar should be good enough to match other fighters even without AWACS cover.

You are again mixing Light fighter with Heavy fighter, this is not how IAF work..

A Light fighter have its advantages over Heavy fighter and visa-verse, IAF doctrine allows Light, Medium and Heavy and all have there parts to play..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

One Should See ' War Of attrition ' In long Run both in peace as well as War, Light fighter are much better than Heavy / Medium fighter, In on going continues operations..

 

[ersakthivel]

AEWC are used for airwarfare, for strike it depends on how good the enemy radar and EW is. Or else AEWC will be too close to the enemy.

As the name itself indicates, AEW is an Early warning system, like satellites which detect missile launches. Expecting it to fight wars just shows how poorly educated people can be when talking about things they don't understand.

If AWACS cover is guaranteed, then LCA does not even need a radar. Let's forget the fact that you need X band to actually seek out and destroy targets. LCA can use it's so called "low" RCS without carrying any missiles to sneak in closer and simply get into dog fights, WW2 style, regardless of the fact that the newer aircraft will have superior maneuverability while carrying missiles..

Once AWACS points out the general direction of enemy fighters the dedicated ew crafts accompanying LCA will do a MUCH MUCH better job of guiding the BVRs of 10 or 20 LCAs that fly along with it , than any twin engined fighter. SO we don't need AWACS or sukhoi for LCA to be effective. "PERIOD".

This was demonstrated by IAF in red flag exercise.

Also in practice all fancy BVRs have not more than effective range of 50 or 60 kms against evasive action taking , ew equipped modern fighters.
If you fire the BVR at 200 km range you are actually wasting it against modern fighters if they dive low and evade with ew counter neasues.

People should accept this and stop at it some point..

Also it is astonishing that you have already concluded that Aesa radar on LCA to be obsolete!!!

[/B][/U]
No one even knows how much power TEJAS mk-II will give it to ASEA.

And if lengthened nose cone with much bigger radom dia, if swash plate type of grippen is adopted there is a scope for huge boost if IAF is interested.

If not then people should atleast have the decency to create a TWIN ENGINE vs SINGLE ENGINE THREAD and move this discussion there.

This has nothing to do with efficacy of LCA.

MODS: attention please

 

[rahulrds1]

N-LCA testing , Navy's ski-jump facility in Goa,
(I think.......)

15.376091,73.817157 (google map)

 

[p2prada]

Light fighters have no place in any major air force. The richest forces of the time, both US and USSR discarded light aircraft once 4th gen aircraft came into the picture.

The USAF never inducted the F-5s(USN, USMC and export) while the Soviets did not even develop the Mig-33.

The only reason why Air forces have to settle for heavy and medium aircraft is because of operation costs during peace time. If air forces had to settle for one single aircraft, then they would all have universally gone for a heavy force structure. France moved to the heavier Rafale and the plans are to replace all their older aircraft with it.

The British went for a medium air superiority fighter, EF(Eagle equivalent in empty weight, but terrible fuel load), and a heavy strike fighter, Tornado. They discarded lighter aircraft like Jaguar.

As for the US, it is a bit different. The F-22 is a heavy aircraft, but is in the Flanker category. The F-35 is a medium fighter but technically it is in the F-15/Su-27 category, except for the smaller radar and lower engine power.

The F-35 is a 13.5 ton aircraft which is similar to the F-15(13 tons empty and 6 tons fuel), and it's fuel load is like Flankers(9.5 tons) at 8.3 tons. So, while the USAF requirement pushed F-22(19 tons) into the Flanker weight(18.5 tons) category, the F-35(13.5 tons) was pushed to the F-15 weight(13 tons) category. So, overall the USAF is not losing out on anything. Technically speaking both F-22 and F-35 are heavy fighters. Heck F-35 is heavier than the F-15, many people completely miss that. It merely forms the light component, which is required to be cheaper to maintain and fly. The F-35's only disadvantage is the lesser thrust, but it is enough to fly better than the F-16 at medium and lower altitudes.

 

[ersakthivel]

AEWC are used for airwarfare, for strike it depends on how good the enemy radar and EW is. Or else AEWC will be too close to the enemy.

As the name itself indicates, AEW is an Early warning system, like satellites which detect missile launches. Expecting it to fight wars just shows how poorly educated people can be when talking about things they don't understand.

If AWACS cover is guaranteed, then LCA does not even need a radar. Let's forget the fact that you need X band to actually seek out and destroy targets. LCA can use it's so called "low" RCS without carrying any missiles to sneak in closer and simply get into dog fights, WW2 style, regardless of the fact that the newer aircraft will have superior maneuverability while carrying missiles.

There is powerful X band radar on LCAA and the modified LCA ew craft that will accompany the LCA fighter group.

So this concern of p2prada is already adressed by ADA.

 

[ersakthivel]

Light fighters have no place in any major air force. The richest forces of the time, both US and USSR discarded light aircraft once 4th gen aircraft came into the picture.

The USAF never inducted the F-5s(USN, USMC and export) while the Soviets did not even develop the Mig-33.

The only reason why Air forces have to settle for heavy and medium aircraft is because of operation costs during peace time. If air forces had to settle for one single aircraft, then they would all have universally gone for a heavy force structure. France moved to the heavier Rafale and the plans are to replace all their older aircraft with it.

The British went for a medium air superiority fighter, EF(Eagle equivalent in empty weight, but terrible fuel load), and a heavy strike fighter, Tornado. They discarded lighter aircraft like Jaguar.

As for the US, it is a bit different. The F-22 is a heavy aircraft, but is in the Flanker category. The F-35 is a medium fighter but technically it is in the F-15/Su-27 category, except for the smaller radar and lower engine power.

The F-35 is a 13.5 ton aircraft which is similar to the F-15(13 tons empty and 6 tons fuel), and it's fuel load is like Flankers(9.5 tons) at 8.3 tons. So, while the USAF requirement pushed F-22(19 tons) into the Flanker weight(18.5 tons) category, the F-35(13.5 tons) was pushed to the F-15 weight(13 tons) category. So, overall the USAF is not losing out on anything. Technically speaking both F-22 and F-35 are heavy fighters. Heck F-35 is heavier than the F-15, many people completely miss that. It merely forms the light component, which is required to be cheaper to maintain and fly. The F-35's only disadvantage is the lesser thrust, but it is enough to fly better than the F-16 at medium and lower altitudes.

I whole heartedly support the argument.

Since tejas has come up to grippen NG(which participated in MMRCA as medium fighter.) level with the Mk-II specs,

So LCA which began as a mig replacement with 1.5 ton weapon load has now passed 12th standard and completed Under grads and acquired doctorate in the form of MK-II and become a medium fighter.

the government must set up two more production lines for tejas and start producing them immediately.

Since mk-I is upgradable to the level of mk-II IAF should immediately order more nos of mk-I after the all important spin recovery tests are over.

ANd we should junk all these light fighters like MIG-21s and MIG-27s immediately.

I appreciate the concern shown by P2PRADA in this regard.

I whole heartedly second it.

JAIHIND

 

[pankaj nema]

The Retirement of ANTIQUE pieces such as Mig 21 and Mig 27 after 2017
has certainly given a boost to the modern LCA mk1 and LCA mk2

 

[ersakthivel]

The Retirement of ANTIQUE pieces such as Mig 21 and Mig 27 after 2017
has certainly given a boost to the modern LCA mk1 and LCA mk2

After fatal crash, IAF grounds 100 MiG-27s - Indian Express

AFter fatal crashes and insurmountable problems in R-29 engines IAF is grounding the entire fleet of 100 MiG-27s.

With 100s of such aircrafts in it's stables , daily risking the life of every pilot who flies on it,it is incredulous for IAF to criticize LCA MK-I as obsolete knowing fully well it's upgradability..


Since tejas MK-II has come up to grippen NG(which participated in MMRCA as medium fighter.) level with the Mk-II specs.And grippen is winning contracs in switzerland with a single modified fighter and the first developmental fllight somewhere in 2013 with no concrete shedule and paucity of funds .Grippen is also held in high regard by IAF and allowed to particpate in mrca.Nobodyin IAF asked where is asea and where is IOC-1,2,,3,4 and FOC.Note acm naik went to sweeden and flew grippen and appreciated it.Even though he criticized LCA as MiG 21 ++

So LCA which began as a mig replacement with 1.5 ton weapon load has now passed 12th standard in IOC version and completed Under grads in FOC Mk-I and acquired doctorate in the form of MK-II and become a medium fighter with 5 ton weapon capacity and 120 kn engine exactly following the developmental path of grippen.

the government must set up two more production lines for tejas and start producing them immediately,like the production of F-16 just 3 years from it's first flight..

Since mk-I is upgradable to the level of mk-II and further to with all the tech of AMCA, IAF should immediately order more nos of mk-I after the all important spin recovery tests are over.

ANd we should junk all these light fighters like MIG-21s and MIG-27s immediately and replace them with Mk-I and MK-II as it will give valuable tatics honing time for pilots..

 

[ersakthivel]

We are spending billions upgrading mirages.
WE ARE SPENDING BILLIONS TO BUY 42 NEW SUKHOIS AND UPGRADE THEM TO SUPER SUKHOIS.
The MIG-29s too will be upgraded.
they will all be flying for another 30 years.
SO we should not follow different yardstick on LCA .It is capable of performing all the roles of JAGs and MIg-21,27 perfectly well with twice their combat loads and twice their performance.
SO we should produce LCAs that are upgradable and replace these jags and mog-21,27 that wont give needed performance even after upgradation.

 

[Defcon 1]

First Combat Drill With Tejas In 3 Months

India's indigenous Light Combat Aircraft Tejas will be put to play in its first ever combat exercise in February 2013. The IAF's Iron Fist exercise over Rajasthan's Pokhran range will see a pair of Tejas limited series production fighters fly, drop bombs and perhaps fire weapons alongside IAF Su-30s, Mirage-2000s and MiG-21s. The type is scheduled to achieve the second phase of its troubled initial operational clearance (IOC-2) by September 2013.

In separate information made available today by the IAF chief, the air force's four MiG-27 squadrons will be retired by 2016-17, while two MiG-21 Type 96 squadrons currently committed to fast jet training will revert to full operational duties next year as the BAE Hawk fleet fully integrates with the IAF lead-in training syllabus. By 2020, the upgraded MiG-29 Fulcrum will be the only MiG series aircraft left in IAF service (the Indian Navy will operate its MiG-29Ks well beyond 2020).

Livefist: First Combat Drill With Tejas In 3 Months

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: FOC & IOC-1/2 on MOD report..

FOC & IOC-1/2 on MOD report..

According to 2011 report when IOC-1 was given, It was well known that IOC-2 will be given latter..

----------------------------------------------------------

This is according to 2012 MOD report, LCA will be fully operational by End of 2012, IOC-2 have little significance as per report..

Posted this few pages back..

Extracted from MOD annual reports..