ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[Kunal Biswas]

The message goes to all..

If one wish to open new thread for off-topic, he is welcome to do so..

 

[tony4562]

Follow Rules..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

IAF team at HAL for speedy completion of projects

IAF has been lobbying to have one of its men at helm at the HAL to improve coordination and working efficiency between the two as several critical projects like the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT), Fifth-Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) are running behind schedule.

However, the Ministry of Defence did not heed to this demand and instead went ahead with the time tested formula by appointing a Chief selected by the Public Enterprise Selection Board (PESB).

:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::

 

[ersakthivel]

I have no intention of discussing anything other than LCA in this thread.Lca is a fighter platform designed with certain objectives in mind.It is not a jamesbond or brucee lee who kill all their enemies single handedly in the climax.It is a fighter in a supporting role to fly in a mixed group of awacs and sukhhois and a team player.

It can do some ground attack roles also. On the first day of the war when enemy fighter swarms enter the airspace 200 or so lcas under command of awacs and sukhoi and PAKFAs is very essential for launching volleys of long range BVR.

And when the other big fighters are tied up in other roles LCA can do point defence duties guarding the fighter bases and sam sites and radars.

Totally concealing this fact P2PRADA repeatedly says in this thread that

LCA will be eaten for breakfast,lunch and dinner by 5TH gen fighters.It is an illogical argument.It is like using you laptop for weather forecast.Super computer does weather do weather forecast.Your laptop downloads it from super computer and allows you to make use of it. That was why I kept on arguing that other systems like IRST and , long wave length radars are for that job. And lca's job is to get target info from them and launch missiles only. Otherwise I would not have discussed about stealth and anti stealth in this thread. I know pretty well that this thread is not for that purpose. So it is good that members like kunal biswas intervened .

As long as people discuss what are the goals set for LCA? what has been achieved?what is the shortfall? And how will affect india's security I am glad to follow that.There is no need to import outlandish arguments like 5th gen Fighters will kill all LCA and LCA is obsolete against twin engined craft.LCA has a design purpose in the mind of the IAF, and ADA. Whether that purpose had been served or not is the concern and should be the point of discussion.
Thanks.

 

[ersakthivel]

The thrust-to-weight ratio and wing loading are the two most important parameters in determining the performance of an aircraft.[1] For example, the thrust-to-weight ratio of a combat aircraft is a good indicator of the manoeuvrability of the aircraft.

http://www.lca-tejas.org/history.html
This site quotes a TWR(thrust to weight ratio) of 1.07for LCAA tejas -mk-1.This is from where wiki quotes its TWR for LCA MK-I. The twr along with low wingloading and AOA all three combine to make the aircraft agile and nimble.
There is no point in trying to determine the agility of the aircraft by the TWR alone.It is the combiation of all three factors along with the weapon load for the misssion and for what altitudes and missions an aircraft is designed for.

According to this site carbon composites make up more than 45% of lca airframe. The composites result in reduction of 40% of total parts. Reduces a high number of rivets. Makes the airframe more rigid and increases the life of the airframe.

Measures of Fighter Capability

Measures of Fighter Capability
The above sight also gives some interesting insights into fighter capabilities.Even though it gives the upperhand to big fighters in a small fighter vs big fighters comparision, this conclusion is based on the higher wing loading of smaller fighters of the time like F-16.But even here the LCA TEJAS with lower wingloading will score higher.

Even though the site suggests that biggger fighter has the initiative it states that within unfueled range a smaller fighter can hold it's own against bigger fighter within it's unrefuelled range provided all things being equal. It firmly states that no amount of avionics can defeat the basic facts of physics. So a low wing loading tejas cannot be written off that easily, since in close combat the number of fighters are another important function that determine the out come

It also says hat a modern ESM fitted to a fighter can also be used for offensive for bvr launch

 

[p2prada]

It is not a jamesbond or brucee lee who kill all their enemies single handedly in the climax.

The requirement is for jamesbond and brucee lee.

On the first day of the war when enemy fighter swarms enter the airspace 200 or so lcas under command of awacs and sukhoi and PAKFAs is very essential for launching volleys of long range BVR.

Hmm, let's see.

200 LCAs = 400 BVR missiles or even 800 BVR missiles.

270 MKI = 2160 BVR missiles
200 Rafale = 1600 BVR missiles
250 PAKFA = 1500 BVR missiles(stealth) or 3000-4000 BVR missiles(non stealth)

So, what do I choose?

LCA will be eaten for breakfast,lunch and dinner by 5TH gen fighters.It is an illogical argument.It is like using you laptop for weather forecast.Super computer does weather do weather forecast.Your laptop downloads it from super computer and allows you to make use of it. That was why I kept on arguing that other systems like IRST and , long wave length radars are for that job. And lca's job is to get target info from them and launch missiles only. Otherwise I would not have discussed about stealth and anti stealth in this thread. I know pretty well that this thread is not for that purpose.

Nonsense.

As long as people discuss what are the goals set for LCA?

Not achieved.

what has been achieved?

A flying Bus.

what is the shortfall?

Everything.

And how will affect india's security I am glad to follow that.

A flying bus does nothing. LCA is a bygone story. A certain number will be acquired in order to support the industry. That's all.

There is no need to import outlandish arguments like 5th gen Fighters will kill all LCA

Everyone of them and the LCA's won't even know it. Heck Rafales kill Mirage-2000s back to Kingdom come. LCA Mk1 is inferior to Mirage-2000, go figure.

and LCA is obsolete against twin engined craft.

Obvious.

LCA has a design purpose in the mind of the IAF, and ADA. Whether that purpose had been served or not is the concern and should be the point of discussion.

That design purpose was supposed to have been achieved 5 to 10 years ago, not 5 to 10 years from now. LCA no longer has a place in the military. Museum and exhibitions, yes.

Learn from other militaries. Learn how junk was discarded regardless of nationalism and patriotism. Sweden's first military jet was junked in just 6 years.

Thanks.

You are welcome.

 

[p2prada]

Measures of Fighter Capability
Even though the site suggests that biggger fighter has the initiative it states that within unfueled range a smaller fighter can hold it's own against bigger fighter within it's unrefuelled range provided all things being equal. It firmly states that no amount of avionics can defeat the basic facts of physics. So a low wing loading tejas cannot be written off that easily, since in close combat the number of fighters are another important function that determine the out come

I don't think you understand the author's article. ridiculing small fighters. The only area he gave small fighters parity is within unrefueled range.

Also, what makes you think "provided all things being equal" is even close to the truth. At smaller ranges, bigger fighters carry more fuel, have more power, carry more equipment, carry more missiles and have greater survivability. How is all of this equal?

The author is talking about equality when something like the MKI is carrying 2 BVR and 2 WVR, like the LCA, is carrying around 2 tons of fuel(instead of 5-9 tons), is using only training signals for radar, not jamming enemy radar and the pilot is blind folded. That's equal to LCA.

 

[ersakthivel]

I don't think you understand the author's article. He is ridiculing small fighters. The only area he gave small fighters parity is within unrefueled range. Every where else it falls short. Btw, he is talking about EF-2000 and F-16 Block 60 as a small fighter, not LCA. He is making a case for F-22 inductions in the RAAF.

Also, what makes you think "provided all things being equal" is even close to the truth. At smaller ranges, bigger fighters carry more fuel, have more power, carry more equipment, carry more missiles and have greater survivability. How is all of this equal?

The author is talking about equality when something like the MKI is carrying 2 BVR and 2 WVR, like the LCA, is carrying around 2 tons of fuel(instead of 5-9 tons), is using only training signals for radar, not jamming enemy radar and the pilot is blind folded. That's equal to LCA.

Ridiculing smaller fighters with HIGER WING LOADING NOTLOWER WING LOADING.
Bigger fighters would need that for long range,not LCA


From now on I am not going for a while .So you and Twinblade are free to post all "FACTS" as you kept on posting for the past 208 pages.

Let other members argue with you.


In the link I mentioner above Dr.CARLO KOPP explicitly mentions that " IRST tracking is now mature enough to acquire lock on in within visual range despite the weather disturbances" i.e 40 kms with todays technological capability.If I say anything like LCA fighter group will avail this facility and can launch heat seeking lock on after launch BVR in the direction of tracking radar, you will say this is just a pray and spray tactics.

Then if I go on and on it will become a stealth Vs anti stealth debate and MOD will ask the debate to be shifted to another thread. I cant blame him, with a persistence so intense you two guys will take turn and deny everything I post.

I have posted all my defense of LCA and what it will do in these 180 posts I have made.They are on record. All our discussions are on record.Any members or visitors can go on and read them at leisure. No one has to sit in judgement of LCA. It will fly and it's future is assured. There will be enough sane people to induct into IAF.There are more than 400 planes in IAF that are inferior to these Mk-1s and it will not destroy IAF.

Then mk-2 with biggger engines will come in and every unreasonable critic one will keep quiet.

Just one thing you keep in mind when you argue against the induction of 40 LCA MK-1.You are directly endangering the life and wellbeing of 40 IAF pilots in their MIG-21s.

So GOOD BYE for now

 

[p2prada]

Ridiculing smaller fighters with HIGER WING LOADING NOTLOWER WING LOADING.

Is that all you got from his article? Did you not notice he mentions thrust to weight figures too? Blind?

Bigger fighters would need that for long range,not LCA

Again, not much. So, what low wing loading advantage were you talking off?

Let's not forget that the LCA has the highest drag with 3 drop tanks ..

The only time LCA will have low wing loading is when it carries only 4 BVR +2 WVR missiles, but this still comes with higher drag penalty and the time on station is only 30-45 minutes

 

[p2prada]

In the link I mentioner above Dr.CARLO KOPP explicitly mentions that " IRST tracking is now mature enough to acquire lock on in within visual range despite the weather disturbances" i.e 40 kms with todays technological capability.

Give me a link saying WVR is 40Km. From what I know WVR is less than 18Km. As a matter of fact, Kopp is talking about IRST locks at very small ranges of 500m to 10Km where WVR missiles are actually used.

Just one thing you keep in mind when you argue against the induction of 40 LCA MK-1.You are directly endangering the life and wellbeing of 40 IAF pilots in their MIG-21s.

Mig-21s are being replaced by Su-30MKI, not LCAs.

LCA Mk1s are not being placed in Mig-21 dominated areas near the border. They are being placed in Sulur, so they are replacing NOTHING. The Mk1s will fly there until retirement comes and they will get a nice send off function.

The 40 pilots on the Mig-21 Bisons are fine. The crash rate for Bisons is acceptable compared to the older versions. What LCA killed are the 1000 other pilots flying older version of Mig-21s which LCA should have replaced.

 

[venkat]

IAF team at HAL for speedy completion of projects



:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::

You are absolutely right kunal!!!! HAL is a design cum production enterprise. it can not be run by ppl who run air taxi services,HR personnel,finance directors and other non technical ppl. The decision making process is so crucial it always creates a life and death situation. one good move takes the project to heavens and one wrong one takes the project to hell along with the ppl working on it. HAL is no maggie noodles affair and the man at the helms should be a dynamic technocrat, a motivator and a visionary, which kalam sahab can only fit in!!!!

 

[p2prada]

You are absolutely right kunal!!!! HAL is a design cum production enterprise. it can not be run by ppl who run air taxi services,HR personnel,finance directors and other non technical ppl. The decision making process is so crucial it always creates a life and death situation. one good move takes the project to heavens and one wrong one takes the project to hell along with the ppl working on it. HAL is no maggie noodles affair and the man at the helms should be a dynamic technocrat, a motivator and a visionary, which kalam sahab can only fit in!!!!

Yeah. HAL is too big for IAF to handle by themselves. What they can do is incorporate IAF personnel for technical audits so that they are close to the R&D sections of HAL and watch the progress instead of being involved in the administrative setup(something they are not trained for). In case HAL overshoot's deadlines, the IAF personnel can decide on accepting the new deadline, settle for foreign consultancy or just import that technology.

With IAF being part of the loop, things will be a lot smoother.

I think this is already being done?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

All MIG-21 pilots are not going on MKI..

Both are flown by different category pilots in terms of skill and experience..

-------------------------------------------------

Indian Gov support for National defense Organization is clearly shows in the budget they give to these agency for there work, Also the average pay grade..

LCA was suppose to induct long time back, Due to lack of vision and lack of motivation & Will power LCA programe is in this stage now..

 

[p2prada]

There were 250-300 Mig-21s flying in early 2000s and a lot more a little before that. Along with 120 Bisons which are still flying.

Many pilots retired and many pilots moved to MKIs. There were no new inductions during the period apart from 150+ MKIs and 37 jaguars.

150+ MKIs would mean a mix of newly recruited pilots and old Mig-21 pilots. Let's not forget there are 2 pilots on MKI.

Currently there are 200 Mig-21s in the force, with 80 grounded(to be phased out this year) and ~120 Mig-21 Bisons still flying. 80 pilots would have seen retirement, grounded or moved to MKI squadrons or training centres.

IAF says currently they have a shortage of pilots. Which means all pilots have aircraft in IAF.

So, over 200 Mig-21s have been phased out during the time MKIs came in. Hence it is logical that the 200 pilots either retired or moved to MKIs considering this aircraft was the only major induction this decade.

By the time Bison phase out starts(2014), the LCA Mk1 will still be a year away from squadron induction(2015). But that's only 20 aircraft, followed by another 20 aircraft in the 2 years after that. By the time 40 LCAs are inducted(2016-17) all 120 Bisons will be phased out(2017). Where will the majority of these Bison pilots go?

Some pilots are moved to LCA, the rest would be moved to new MKIs along with the new trainers we are inducting. At this period we will see a dip in both squadron strength and pilot requirement.

As of today, majority of the pilots leaving Mig-21s found place in MKIs. No other fighter jet.

All of the Mig-21s that were phased out have all been replaced with MKIs. When I say all, I mean all. The Mig-21 numbers are too many for MKI alone to replace, hence the reason why we will have a major squadron shortfall.

Mig-27, there is no specific date given, but the pilots on these aircraft will be converted to Rafales and/or MKIs. Only 40 Mig-27s are expected to fly until 2025 out of some 100 today.

 

[ersakthivel]

Give me a link saying WVR is 40Km. From what I know WVR is less than 18Km. As a matter of fact, Kopp is talking about IRST locks at very small ranges of 500m to 10Km where WVR missiles are actually used.



Mig-21s are being replaced by Su-30MKI, not LCAs.

LCA Mk1s are not being placed in Mig-21 dominated areas near the border. They are being placed in Sulur, so they are replacing NOTHING. The Mk1s will fly there until retirement comes and they will get a nice send off function.

The 40 pilots on the Mig-21 Bisons are fine. The crash rate for Bisons is acceptable compared to the older versions. What LCA killed are the 1000 other pilots flying older version of Mig-21s which LCA should have replaced.

After another 10 years on BISON's what is the worth of their experience when the BISONs are phased out at last?
If they switch to MK-I atleast their 10 year tactics and combat experience in TEJAS will be scalable to MK-II,Otherwise they are wasting time in MIG-21 BISONS, Am I right?

You cannot say no, because in this same thread the main reason you advanced for JAG's upgradation and continuence is that the valuable of experience of jag pilots will be lost.

So you are the head of IAF's replacement division perhaps?

Whatever be the km number ,do you accept that with present day tech we can have missile lock for LCA's heat seeking missile on any 5th gen fighter at a18 km distance according to CARLO KOPP. is that okay with you or you will contradict carlo kopp?

 

[EzioAltaïr]

Whatever be the km number ,do you accept that with present day tech we can have missile lock for LCA's heat seeking missile on any 5th gen fighter at a18 km distance according to CARLO KOPP. is that okay with you or you will contradict carlo kopp?

What's the point of locking on to thee guy when he's 18km away? He can lock on to Tejas 80km away, because it's not stealthy.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Some are true assumptions and some are false...

with 80 grounded(to be phased out this year) and ~120 Mig-21 Bisons still flying. 80 pilots would have seen retirement, grounded or moved to MKI squadrons or training centres.

So,over 200 Mig-21s have been phased out during the time MKIs came in. Hence it is logical that the 200 pilots either retired or moved to MKIs considering this aircraft was the only major induction this decade.

Some pilots are moved to LCA, the rest would be moved to new MKIs along with the new trainers we are inducting. At this period we will see a dip in both squadron strength and pilot requirement.

What is false and Questionable :

120 Mig-21 are not flying..

200 Mig-21 of what kind phased out and when ? which older MIG-21 squadrons received new MKIs ?

How many Pilots moved to LCA and what squadrons is now flying LCA ?

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LCA is not stealth but hard to detect coz its small and it use ECM Suit to evade from detection..

To avoid detection, Stealth is not the only measure..

What's the point of locking on to thee guy when he's 18km away? He can lock on to Tejas 80km away, because it's not stealthy.

LCA radar can scan 150+ kms and with BVR it too can lock on its target..

Depend on its BVR which can be of 100km or more or just 80km..

 

[EzioAltaïr]

How many Pilots moved to LCA and what squadrons is now flying LCA ?

As of now, only No. 45 Squadron (not flying already, but will be flying in a while. 45 was a MiG 21 squadron, until recently when they became the first to get the Tejas.

One more squadron to be inducted by 2015. IAF ordered 40 aircraft, 20 per squadron.

 

[ersakthivel]

LCA Mk1s are not being placed in Mig-21 dominated areas near the border. They are being placed in Sulur, so they are replacing NOTHING. The Mk1s will fly there until retirement comes and they will get a nice send off function.

The 40 pilots on the Mig-21 Bisons are fine. The crash rate for Bisons is acceptable compared to the older versions. What LCA killed are the 1000 other pilots flying older version of Mig-21s which LCA should have replaced.

TEJAS is the same as that of any other fighter plane.I have posted ADA,s official timeline stating that funds for proof of concept was released on 1993 only.

You can place tejas any where , You are even contradicting that ACM who famously said LCAA is just a mig-21++, AND it will become LCA only after FOC

 

[ersakthivel]

What's the point of locking on to thee guy when he's 18km away? He can lock on to Tejas 80km away, because it's not stealthy.

First gentle man Mr P2PRADA denies even that. So if you guys accept a lock can be had 18 km away ,I will explain how LCA will fire a BVR 80 km away.But first of all we have to start a debate atleast. SO that's why I am asking prada about it?