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Your naivete knows no bounds, friend. I hope that when you meet the real world, the shock is not too much.https://mises.org/library/mises-secession
Mises on Secession
A nation, therefore, has no right to say to a province: You belong to me, I want to take you. A province consists of its inhabitants. If anybody has a right to be heard in this case it is these inhabitants. Boundary disputes should be settled by plebiscite. (Omnipotent Government, p. 90)
No people and no part of a people shall be held against its will in a political association that it does not want. (Nation, State, and Economy, p. 34)
Liberalism knows no conquests, no annexations; just as it is indifferent towards the state itself, so the problem of the size of the state is unimportant to it. It forces no one against his will into the structure of the state. Whoever wants to emigrate is not held back. When a part of the people of the state wants to drop out of the union, liberalism does not hinder it from doing so. Colonies that want to become independent need only do so. The nation as an organic entity can be neither increased nor reduced by changes in states; the world as a whole can neither win nor lose from them. (Nation, State, and Economy, pp. 39–40)
The size of a states territory therefore does not matter. (Nation, State, and Economy, p. 82)
The right of self-determination in regard to the question of membership in a state thus means: whenever the inhabitants of a particular territory, whether it be a single village, a whole district, or a series of adjacent districts, make it known, by a freely conducted plebiscite, that they no longer wish to remain united to the state to which they belong at the time, but wish either to form an independent state or to attach themselves to some other state, their wishes are to be respected and complied with. This is the only feasible and effective way of preventing revolutions and civil and international wars. (Liberalism, p. 109)
If it were in any way possible to grant this right of self-determination to every individual person, it would have to be done. (Liberalism, pp. 109–10)
The situation of having to belong to a state to which one does not wish to belong is no less onerous if it is the result of an election than if one must endure it as the consequence of a military conquest. (Liberalism, p. 119)
It makes no difference where the frontiers of a country are drawn. Nobody has a special material interest in enlarging the territory of the state in which he lives; nobody suffers loss if a part of this area is separated from the state. It is also immaterial whether all parts of the states territory are in direct geographical connection, or whether they are separated by a piece of land belonging to another state. It is of no economic importance whether the country has a frontage on the ocean or not. In such a world the people of every village or district could decide by plebiscite to which state they wanted to belong. (Omnipotent Government, p. 92)
If a section of the population say that they want to separate then thats their choice as long as they don't want to kill or displace the minorities of those that don't want secession then they can right well do as they please. If you think the borders are some kind of god entity to be worshipped then good for you but you can't stop people from renouncing their political association with an entity that they don't want in their area. Your "real world" is just your opinion of how you want other people to live I say you go out into the world and see it for yourself because I already have and its a depressing shithole filled with second handers and worn out opinions. Unless you can understand concepts like states rights as a defence against federalism and renouncing your beliefs in coercive associations and oriental despotism and so forth your really in no place to question me. Go read a book.Nya nya nya nya nya
What if you don't want enemies to come to your gates?If a section of the population say that they want to separate then thats their choice as long as they don't want to kill or displace the minorities of those that don't want secession then they can right well do as they please. If you think the borders are some kind of god entity to be worshipped then good for you but you can't stop people from renouncing their political association with an entity that they don't want in their area. Your "real world" is just your opinion of how you want other people to live I say you go out into the world and see it for yourself because I already have and its a depressing shithole filled with second handers and worn out opinions. Unless you can understand concepts like states rights as a defence against federalism and renouncing your beliefs in coercive associations and oriental despotism and so forth your really in no place to question me. Go read a book.
Yeah sure.What if you don't want enemies to come to your gates?
Pray tell what political rights and who is being suppressed? I assume that you know how political rights are suppressed in the first place. Its not about the rights that you have its about how they are taken away from you that makes them matter like hell to those who are affected.A group of people (or state) can decide to suppress people so as to build buffer in between. In real world people will do what benefits them. Taking away few political rights is not so huge!!
I an ideal world, yes people should have the right to self determination and decide where they want to live. But in the real world, people are stupid and can't be trusted to make the determination. The Muslims in Kashsmir would create another Syria, the status quo isn't perfect but I don't know what is@Project Dharma Your opinion sir. As the only other person who would probably understand.
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You don't understand real-politik! Depends on the end goal of the political entity.Pray tell what political rights and who is being suppressed? I assume that you know how political rights are suppressed in the first place. Its not about the rights that you have its about how they are taken away from you that makes them matter like hell to those who are affected.
Very radical libertarian plan here , looking only at point 5 . The meganations are not going to be very cooperative ! Last time some American states tried to split, it led to the bloodiest war in American History. When Chechenya tried it, it led to massive destruction of Grozny. India isn't very keen about the idea of seeing parts of the Union going away . And I do not need to mention Chinese susceptibility about Tibet and Xinjiang .
An International Small Nation Convention
[...]
Among the possible actions which it might pursue are:
- Launch an international campaign challenging the influence and authority of the meganations of the world.
- Begin withdrawing support from failed international megainstitutions such as the UN, WTO, World Bank, IMF, European Union, and NATO.
- Initiate the process of designing more participatory, more democratic alternatives to the failed behemoths.
- Design a process which an aspiring small nation might follow in order to achieve self-determination and recognition by the global community.
- Create a Small Nations’ Alliance (SNA) to encourage (1) the nonviolent breakup of meganations such as the United States, China, Russia, and India; (2) the peaceful coexistence of a community of small, sustainable, cooperative, democratic, socially responsible, egalitarian, nonviolent, ecofriendly nations; and (3) the independence of small breakaway states such as Quebec, Scotland, Tibet, and Vermont
1. No borders aren't a god-entity, just like "political", "human" or whatever rights.If a section of the population say that they want to separate then thats their choice as long as they don't want to kill or displace the minorities of those that don't want secession then they can right well do as they please. 1. If you think the borders are some kind of god entity to be worshipped then good for you but you 2. can't stop people from renouncing their political association with an entity that they don't want in their area.
Is it true the "best we will ever have" EU is in trouble?My practical position : the very large unions like European Union are the best form of political association we will ever have.
The EU is in big trouble ... so big it can indeed collapse in 2017 if either Italy or France succumb to anti-european parties. The good thing is that if EU wants to survive and emerge from the crisis as a winner it has to make big reforms. Better economic and fiscal policies, better executive management, better security and defence integration. Can it be done ? I ' d say it is now or never . If the motor roars again (French German cooperation) , there will be an extraordinary impetus after 2017 : new Schengen, fiscal integration, defence policy, fusion of intelligence services maybe. I have big hopes ... maybe we can also have a working European social security with a unique ID and minimal rights for all.Is it true the "best we will ever have" EU is in trouble?
Just curious.
The social contract isn't god either.1. No borders aren't a god-entity, just like "political", "human" or whatever rights.
2. Why not?? What if concentration camps or as the US called it Internment camps (for the Japanese-american citizens) are built to eliminate these people. That should stop those people. This method is used by china for centuries.
Or what if like the US we use propaganda to keep people's faith in the govt. That would work too right?
BTW did you mean "I am timur hear me roar"
"Real politik" is just a pretense for fat cat beauracrats and money grabbing tax collecters in the godless capital to have their way with land and people from far off places that they don't own legitimately.You don't understand real-politik! Depends on the end goal of the political entity.
US might whine about political/human rights in Iran while keeping mouth shut about SA!
what about new hampshire secessionI an ideal world, yes people should have the right to self determination and decide where they want to live. But in the real world, people are stupid and can't be trusted to make the determination. The Muslims in Kashsmir would create another Syria, the status quo isn't perfect but I don't know what is