22 fighter aircraft, including 10 MiG-21s, crashed since 2011

Ganesh2691

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New Delhi: In the last three years, 22 fighter aircraft, including 10 MiG-21 planes, and 18 helicopters of the armed forces have crashed in which 49 people including 44 defence personnel were killed, Lok Sabha was informed today.

"From 2011-12 to 2012-13 and current year, 22 fighter aircraft including 10 MiG-21s and 18 helicopters of armed forces have crashed," Defence Minister AK Antony said in a written reply in Lok Sabha.

In these accidents, apart from the loss of aircraft, 44 defence personnel and five civilians lost their lives, he said.

Replying to another query, the Defence Minister said the government has plans of operating the MiG-21 Bison aircraft till 2025.

"The upgraded version of MiG 21-Bis known as the Bison, is planned to be operational beyond 2019 up to 2025. MiG Bis is planned to be decommissioned in 2018 as originally scheduled," Antony said.

On the investigation into the VIP chopper deal, he said the CBI had earlier frozen the accounts of former IAF chief SP Tyagi and his relatives.

"However, subsequently all the bank accounts have been de-frozen as per a court order, imposing certain conditions on the bank account holders," he said.

On the ceasefire violations by Pakistan, Antony said in the last six months, there have been 33 such cases in which one Indian soldier has died while three have been injured.

He said in June alone, 11 such ceasefire violation incidents have been reported.
On the devastation caused by the floods in Uttarakhand, the Minister said around 48.3 kms of roads in stretches of strategic importance with BRO have been washed out.

The roads of strategic importance have been built along the China border, he added.

http://www.firstpost.com/india/22-f...ng-10-mig-21s-crashed-since-2011-1011563.html
 

Singh

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Its criminal on the part of Govt to allow Mig-21s to fly.
Buy some second hand M2Ks, or buy some Gripens, or loan some crafts.
 

bennedose

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I was honoured to be asked to review the book "50 years of the MiG 21" by the author Air Marshal Rajkumar. Please allow me to post an excerpt from the review

Another thing that comes out very clearly in the book is that everyone who flew the MiG 21 loved her and considered the aircraft to be a safe and well behaved thoroughbred in which they could beat any other high performance aircraft in combat. Considering that these words have come from at least two people who later became chief of air staff, this information cannot be dismissed lightly as it has been in the lay media who have played an ignorant and unfair role in painting the MiG 21 as an unsafe aircraft.

On the role of the lay media in giving a needless bad reputation to the MiG 21, Air Marshal Satish Inamdar (later vice chief of air staff) writes with some angst saying
  • "It hurts like hell..this public perception was criminally unfair and contagiously demoralizing both within the air force and outside" . Former CAS AM Tipnis notes that the MiG 21 was used as a trainer (due to the absence of a viable advanced jet trainer. In a moving piece, Tipnis writes, "The MiG 21 has taken hundreds of pilots onto her lap, taught them, challenged their skills, done their bidding, executed their tasks, brought them indescribable joys, carried them though their occassional crassness and and alas, sometimes succumbed to her own frailty, or to her rider's ineptness. How many of the privileged few, who have tasted the ecstasy of the blue yonder with this trusted mate, have felt they had their maker's final call, but had it adjourned to another day through the blessed stubbornness of our beloved lady to protect her own?"
Late Wing Co Suresh, one of the pilots of Longewala, and who has a Sabre kill to his credit and who later converted to the MiG 21 wrote an article for the magazine "Indian Aviation" that is mirrored at the following link
BHARAT RAKSHAK MONITOR: Volume 5(1)

Here is a short excerpt from the article
MiG-21, although a high demand aircraft, is docile and has no aerodynamic vices. It has excellent handling characteristics and has served to provide very valuable flying experience to a large number of IAF pilots. Some like the previous and the present CAS swear by the aircraft. It is the docility of the aircraft that not only generates a good bit of confidence but also encourages forays into exceeding the limits of the stipulated flight envelope. In air combat maneuvers, many inexperienced pilots have got into trouble without realizing it. At high angles of attack, the induced drag increases sharply and unless the angle of attack is quickly reduced, the aircraft develops a high rate of descent, which cannot be arrested with the power available (even with reheat). Added to this, there is no protest from the aircraft like severe shudder, wing rocking. etc, prevalent in other types of aircraft. This gives a feeling of well-being and a number of pilots did not recognize the danger in time to take recovery action or eject.
 

ladder

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Induct Tejas in current form , Will save lives ..
Even inducting Tejas in current form will take the replacement time of Bis version to 2018 and Bison variant to well beyond 2018.

The article gives the probable time 2025. Only the time 2025 can be squeezed by 2-3 years by inducting Tejas in current form.
 

sob

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Its criminal on the part of Govt to allow Mig-21s to fly.
Buy some second hand M2Ks, or buy some Gripens, or loan some crafts.
I have been advocating buying the 2nd hand M2000 from UAE. It adds muscle ot the IAF immediately and also allows them to retire the Mig 21s.
 

Ash

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How does this attrition rate compare against crashes of other airforces?

" Buy some second hand M2Ks, or buy some Gripens, or loan some crafts" .India should approach South Africa to buy their Grippens as the South African Airforce cannot afford to keep these planes in the air and as a result these planes are being kept in storage.
 

sob

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How does this attrition rate compare against crashes of other airforces?

" Buy some second hand M2Ks, or buy some Gripens, or loan some crafts" .India should approach South Africa to buy their Grippens as the South African Airforce cannot afford to keep these planes in the air and as a result these planes are being kept in storage.
the advantage of buying 2nd hand M2K is that you have a pool of pilots who have flying time on these aircrafts, spares is not a big issue so logistically it makes a perfect match.
 

ladder

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I have been advocating buying the 2nd hand M2000 from UAE. It adds muscle ot the IAF immediately and also allows them to retire the Mig 21s.
There was negotiation for buying UAE M-2000 but that fell apart because of price quoted by them. Isn't that true?
 

TrueSpirit

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There was negotiation for buying UAE M-2000 but that fell apart because of price quoted by them. Isn't that true?
This is the reason I heard: Failed commercial negotiations & some naysaying on behalf of Dassault (something to do with production line closing).

However, I understand that spare-part supply should continue long after the prod. line is closed as per the contract with the original buyer.
 

sob

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I do not know what was the reason but the underlying facts are very clear

1. We need to retire Mig 21s at the earliest. Bisons can go on for some time but the older variants need to be packed.

2. Rafael will not be coming in for at least 3-4 years, and getting the numbers will take time.

3. For whatever reason LCA is also off by 3-4 year time frame or maybe more. Also we do not know what is the level of preparedness at HAL for the assembly line.

SU 30 MKI is coming in but that does not solve the problem.
 

bennedose

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How does this attrition rate compare against crashes of other airforces?

" Buy some second hand M2Ks, or buy some Gripens, or loan some crafts" .India should approach South Africa to buy their Grippens as the South African Airforce cannot afford to keep these planes in the air and as a result these planes are being kept in storage.

There is a problem with one-on-one comparisons with other air forces for the following two reasons

1. The IAF flies in some of the harshest flying conditions on earth, and temperature and altitude variations that almost no other air force faces.
2. The IAF _flies_a_lot_. One way of stopping crashes altogether is to not fly at all.

Another thing that is not appreciated is the fact that the IAF does not induct aircraft like a rich man buys cars - simply to add to his collection. The IAF inducts aircraft like a top notch football team manager selects top players - as a person who is both capable, and one who can integrate and work seamlessly with all the other team members.

Simply buying aircraft does not cut it. Believe it or not - Pakistan has, in the past, simply bought/inducted aircraft without te capability of fitting them in as a team. Some of Pakistan's'AWACS purchases were like this. Nothing is acquired by the IAF if it cannot be fitted in with existing doctrines and requirements. No blind purchases
 
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bennedose

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Let me add one more point.

Why do you not find bees in an anthill? Because ants live in the anthill and not bees.

The meaning of this remark is that the largest number of IAF crashes have been of a type that the IAF uses most and has in the largest numbers. At one time half the air force was MiG 21 so nearly half the accidents were MiG 21. In fact Mig 23s and MiG 27s were crashing a lot more, but nobody noticed.

But I do feel that twin engines are safer. i would be happy to see Rafale coming in, followed by increasing numbers of Tejas which appears to be safe like the Mirage. It is a fact that fighter flying is associated with risks. That is why or fighter pilots are the best there are and they are precious. We must help and protect them but we must also understand the truth. If pilots say the MiG 21 is good we must not simply dismiss that as nonsense and accept what the media (who may be getting paid by someone suspicious) might say.
 

vishwaprasad

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Wow!!! only 22....more should have been crashed....

Indian citizens life is anyway cheap in India...be it civilions or our brave pilots or soldiers....we are the country where neighbouring country soldiers come and easily kill our soildiers and go back and guess what??? our so called PURE NATURED defense minister Antony says that terrorists came in the uniform of PAKI army and killed them.....I feel sorry for this country for being in the hands of such hopeless people....

Still Rafale deal signature is not even on horizon....

A single letter from any tom dick and harry makes this Antony to either hold the deal or cancel it....where his pureness now when time has come to answer enemy???

I wonder why is he even a defense minister??? He is better in Himalaya in the form of some monk....

And what to say abt our respected PM MMS....He will as usual keep quite and in mind sing a song... KUCH TOH LOG KAHENGE...LOGO KA KAAM HAI KAHNA...CHODO IN BEKAR KI BATON KO, KAHI BITA NA JAAYE RAINA....
 

mikhail

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Wow!!! only 22....more should have been crashed....

Indian citizens life is anyway cheap in India...be it civilions or our brave pilots or soldiers....we are the country where neighbouring country soldiers come and easily kill our soildiers and go back and guess what??? our so called PURE NATURED defense minister Antony says that terrorists came in the uniform of PAKI army and killed them.....I feel sorry for this country for being in the hands of such hopeless people....

Still Rafale deal signature is not even on horizon....

A single letter from any tom dick and harry makes this Antony to either hold the deal or cancel it....where his pureness now when time has come to answer enemy???

I wonder why is he even a defense minister??? He is better in Himalaya in the form of some monk....

And what to say abt our respected PM MMS....He will as usual keep quite and in mind sing a song... KUCH TOH LOG KAHENGE...LOGO KA KAAM HAI KAHNA...CHODO IN BEKAR KI BATON KO, KAHI BITA NA JAAYE RAINA....
mate,don't get angry on our Govt. as the reality is that the training of the IAF pilots is several notch below than that of the NATO standard due to the chronic shortage of all types of trainers(basic,intermediate and advance).it was only recently that the IAF started to induct the Hawk AJT aircrafts to its inventory which can be used both as an intermediate and an advanced jet and only a couple of months back IAF started to induct sizable numbers of Pilatus P-7 basic trainers in its inventory.before these inductions the IAF pilots used to train their basic courses in HAL HPT-32(Deepak) turboprop aircraft which were more than 30 years old and for their intermediate course the IAF used the Kiran HJT-16 which is more than 40 years old,then they used to train their advance flying courses directly in the Mig-21 supersonic fighters which was completely wrong as the descending speed of a basic Mig-21 aircraft is more than 3 times higher than that of an AJT aircraft.so many of the rookie pilots made the mistake of calculating the necessary speed reduction during their descend and hence most of them crashed their aircraft.so this is one of the reasons why the IAF had a crash rate which is many times higher than the accepted crash rate of NATO.
secondly,most of the aircraft in the current IAF inventory are of Soviet origin and we all know that the soviet designed airframes have a much shorter lifespan than that of their western counterparts.the soviets knew this and hence used to fly their aircraft for a maximum of 100-150 hrs in a year.but on the other hand the IAF maintains the strict NATO standard of flying atleast 200+ hrs a year for every aircraft and hence most of these soviet airframes get wear off due to this excessive flying hrs as they were not built for this.
so this is another major reason why the crash rate of the IAF is much higher than any of its western counterpart.Period!
 

bennedose

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Mikhail the MiG 21 has an airframe life of 2500 hours. The Su 30 has an airframe life of 6000 hours. Which soviet aircraft has an airframe life of 150 hours?

The IAF does not fly beyond airframe life hours and the performance in red Flag and other exercises do not support your contention of "a notch below NATO". I would like to see a few references, or please simply state that you are posting an opinion/guesswork
 

t_co

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Mikhail the MiG 21 has an airframe life of 2500 hours. The Su 30 has an airframe life of 6000 hours. Which soviet aircraft has an airframe life of 150 hours?

The IAF does not fly beyond airframe life hours and the performance in red Flag and other exercises do not support your contention of "a notch below NATO". I would like to see a few references, or please simply state that you are posting an opinion/guesswork
You're confusing 150 hours per year with 2500 hours total, across the entire life of the airframe.

If you're flying 150 hours per year, then it takes 17 years to burn off 2500 hours. If you're flying 200 hours per year, it takes only 12 years. The average Mig 21 airframe in the IAF is over 20 years old.
 

sob

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Mikhail the MiG 21 has an airframe life of 2500 hours. The Su 30 has an airframe life of 6000 hours. Which soviet aircraft has an airframe life of 150 hours?

The IAF does not fly beyond airframe life hours and the performance in red Flag and other exercises do not support your contention of "a notch below NATO". I would like to see a few references, or please simply state that you are posting an opinion/guesswork
There are critical components which have to be checked thoroughly every 150 or 200 hours and changed between 400 to 500 hours depending on the results of the 1st inspection.
 

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