2002 Gujarat violence: Godhra, Riots and Verdict

Soham

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Very well put. So lets leave this idea of religious discussion here... and do something more cheerful.
 

Vinod2070

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Well, Gujarat is a shame for the nation but I am disgusted with this Setalvad woman.

I saw her once in a TV debate where there was an argument going on between an Indian analyst and a Pakistani military person. Admittedly the Indian member went a little overboard in criticizing Pakistan and the Pakistani general (I think some Gen. Talat) was quite reasonable but when it came time for this Setalvadto speak, she was much more pro-Pakistan than Talat! She even said that Pakistan was created in the name of Islam (Pakistan ka matlab kya and such shyt). She was almost wistful and tried to berate the Indian analyst while justifying some atrocious incident in Palkistan on the basis that Pakistan is an Islamic state.
 

Flint

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Vinod I'm inclined to give Ms Setalvad the benefit of the doubt. Taking on the system in India is more than a man's job.
 

Flint

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How do you know that she is not part of the system ??
Well one can never be cent-percent sure but from what I've read, I think that she is not, and after all I have no choice but to rely on what I read because I cannot meet her in person or hire an investigating team to examine her :p
 

ahmedsid

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I feel that she is better than any Politician any day, even though she likes the attention. I dont care as long as she has helped bring justice to a wronged person. If she is guilty of wrongdoing, then Let them also try Modiji for Giving the rioters a free run. Oh, I forgot! Lack of Evidence! God Speed.
 

S.A.T.A

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This perhaps is the greatest tragedy of the India law enforcement and prosecution machinery,that we need NGO's activists like Setalvad to drive home the importance of delivering actionable justice to victims of communal flareups(which is often treated as different from conventional crimes)....that should have been the job for the law enforcement agencies of the state and the center.

Like somebody said,it wasn't an easy job and resource exhausting one at that.If the state fails to perform what is expected to do,then the civil society will take up the cudgels with its attendant agendas.....

One of the reasons why the Gujarat govt was accused of collusion with rioters is the way it stymied proper investigation into the riots and bring the perpetrators to justice,forcing even the SC to issue an damning indictment to the Modi govt to properly investigate the riots case or quit office.

There would have been no need for Setalvad's if the state had carried out its constitutional responsibility
 

Vinod2070

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Yes, the justice system in India is broken. Nothing ever happens to these so called "wll connected" goons and politicians.

And strangely this is never even an issue in any elections! No one wants to fix it as there are strong vested interests.
 

Yusuf

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Thats why an independent police free from the interference of the politicians is required. Thats the first step in resolving our justice system. In Gujarat, the police were told to keep away till the time rioters had a field day, and then they vanished.
Similarly the CBI should be allowed to do its job. It should not be a tool in the hands of the central government.
If these agencies are allowed to work without political interference, first thing is that these politicians wont perpetrate the crime knowing full well that their connections and money will not buy them their freedom.
 

Daredevil

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Thats why an independent police free from the interference of the politicians is required. Thats the first step in resolving our justice system. In Gujarat, the police were told to keep away till the time rioters had a field day, and then they vanished.
Similarly the CBI should be allowed to do its job. It should not be a tool in the hands of the central government.
If these agencies are allowed to work without political interference, first thing is that these politicians wont perpetrate the crime knowing full well that their connections and money will not buy them their freedom.
I think police should have autonomy and should be free from interference from the politicians for unbiased investigations into any kind of crimes. Just look at election commission as an example, they are doing a great job for past few elections and yes autonomy does wonders.
 

thakur_ritesh

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i believe this is where the report on police reforms needs to be implemented which had tried to address the issue of nexus between the police and the politicians, and also how to make the police setup corruption free but one of the biggest opponents to the implementation of that report has been the state govts as that would weaken their control on the police.
 

mehwish92

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my relatives were also victims of the riots. luckily they were not harmed though; only part of their house caught on fire.

It was such a horrible experience. We were in Delhi at the time, and my aunt from Ahmedabad phoned us (worried for their lives and not knowing what else to do). All we could hear were loud screams in the back.

Since then, theyve moved to Delhi.

We need a proper system that can deal with this kind of stuff effectively. Nobody deserves this.


People, also, need to stop taking advantage of such tragedies for their own benefit.
 

NikSha

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People, also, need to stop taking advantage of such tragedies for their own benefit.
I don't know if you've noticed but we have a government at the centre which is hell-bent on dividing the nation playing caste politics. Congress is back in power because of progress India made under them, but the first thing they did after getting elected was to make sure that the quotas in the private sector are initialized this time around.

Bottomline, riots like these will happen again, thanks to your friendly neighbourhood politician. They know that keeping people divided is the best way to rule over them. British knew it, and now, so do our politicians.
 

mehwish92

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I don't know if you've noticed but we have a government at the centre which is hell-bent on dividing the nation playing caste politics. Congress is back in power because of progress India made under them, but the first thing they did after getting elected was to make sure that the quotas in the private sector are initialized this time around.

Bottomline, riots like these will happen again, thanks to your friendly neighbourhood politician. They know that keeping people divided is the best way to rule over them. British knew it, and now, so do our politicians.
Isn't the congress also implementing a law which will help in preventing riots in the future? I don't know much details about that, but I did read an article about it.

And if you're talking about the reservations and quotas dividing Indians, then I guess you can go either way with that argument. We need to do SOMETHING to help the lower sects of society to come up. However doing this at the cost of the middle class isn't a good idea either.

I personally do not support the reservation policy, nor do I reject it.

But I do think that in the long term, it will help.
 

NikSha

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Isn't the congress also implementing a law which will help in preventing riots in the future? I don't know much details about that, but I did read an article about it.
Heh.. unless they came up with a mind control device from the future, no law can stop riots. Definitely not in India.. :p


And if you're talking about the reservations and quotas dividing Indians, then I guess you can go either way with that argument. We need to do SOMETHING to help the lower sects of society to come up. However doing this at the cost of the middle class isn't a good idea either.
I always wonder, how exaclty is handing out free posts/seats to the people from "lower sects of society" (most people are just dying to get themselves into that category cause of such freebies btw) helping them OR the post they are in especially when they reach there not based on skills but cause of quotas?

Do you think someone like Mayawati should be a PM cause she is a dalit or because of skills? I mean if we are all about helping the lower sects, let's make her PM, will definitely add a new layer of polish to the "India shining" campaign. :113:
 

Rage

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The Pioneer: "Referring to another instance that exposed the Citizens for Justice and Peace’s much ‘trumpeted’ charges, Rohtagi said the SIT investigation found untrue allegation about a gangrape of a pregnant woman Kauser Bano, whose stomach was allegedly pierced by a sword and her foetus killed."
I find this statement from the article somewhat unnerving in light of the fact that there exist an actual affirmation, voluntary disclosure and sub rosa testimony captured on clandestine video as to the (no less self-avowed) involvement of one of the main accused Babu Bajrangi in that very, precise act. I will not post the video here because I find it unfitting of gracing this forum. But I will PM a link to anyone who asks me for it and it is available on youtube and, alongwith a slew of other (mainly Tehelka) videos of attestations - even unasked for corroborations and supplementary information of further heinous acts committed by the rioters.

There have been several articles subsequently rubbishing these sub rosa depositions as "cooked up" primarily on the basis of 'incongruous news reports' (as if they somehow expected the journalism post the Godhra riots to be "tutored" or coordinated). Divergent, sometimes even contradictory, reporting always exists- particularly in the immediate aftermath or concurrently at the scene of a flare-up (and associated confusion). Disparate news reports are not sufficient premise to discount actual testimonies given by several accused (even if they were made in a state of post-anabolic, rapine euphoria) - and especially when these coordinate even more with allegations and charges leveled.

It is important also to remember the extent of this article. While it has now come to light that the Special Investigations Team (SIT) has credible reason, guaged from cyclostyled affidavits, to doubt the authenticity of some two dozen submissions, it does not detract from the fact that there are hundreds of other genuine victims of the riots. Nor does it detract from the fact that other political parties - including the Congress, which if anything, has been even more guilty in the past of inciting riots - are equally culpable for their involvement in inciting and catalyzing communal violence --- and that these must be brought to book.
 

Known_Unknown

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Reservation I think should be handled as a state subject, not a central government subject. The problem with setting uniform state-irrelevant quotas for the lower castes is that they ignore ground realities. In states like UP, Bihar and Rajasthan, caste discrimination/violence is more prevalent than in Maharashtra or Karnataka. Hence, in those states, the lower castes should have higher percentage of reserved seats than in Maharashtra or Karnataka. Caste based reservation is supposed to help the lower castes overcome caste discrimination. Hence in places where there is less caste discrimination, the reservations should be less caste based and more based on the financial situation of the applicant.

But then again, caste politics has become an inseparable part of India, and no government, whether the Congress or the BJP can afford to abolish these reservations for fear of a backlash in the next election.
 

mehwish92

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^^^^^^ that is my biggest worry:

caste-based reservations are only beneficial if used for a certain period of time. By implementing reservations & quotas, we may be helping the lower sects of society to come up, but we are compromising on talent and skill.

once it's time to get rid of the reservations policy, there will be an uprise against this move, and thus we'll be stuck with reservations forever...

plus there is alot of misuse of reservation policy. we need to modify this to make sure this doesn't happen. For example there are some rich dalits who can easily take advantage of this.


A MUCH smarter thing would have been to not base the reservation policy on the caste system -- after all, don't we consider caste system illegal?


The reservation system should be based solely on income groups.
 

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