Vamsi
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noIs GTRE trying to bring back the Kaveri Engine using BAE help?
noIs GTRE trying to bring back the Kaveri Engine using BAE help?
it's just screwdriveringThe specifics of the American offer become clearer.. somewhat!
Second Thoughts
The US has come back with its 2019 offer to jointly develop the AMCA jet engine with India shedding ‘export control’ concerns, , Magazine Issue 5 Nov 2022www.businessworld.in
Second Thoughts
The US has come back with its 2019 offer to jointly develop the AMCA jet engine with India shedding ‘export control’ concerns
View attachment 180503
The US has revived an offer to cooperate with India on the development of jet engine technology which could be used to power the Mk-2 variant of India’s futuristic Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).
General Electric (GE) of the US, one of the world’s leading manufacturers of jet engines, has submitted a proposal for the co-development of a 110 kN thrust engine with Indian agencies for the stealth fighter.
Technologies developed for a 116 kN thrust derivative of GE’s F414 engine will be the baseline in this offer of cooperation, Youngje Kim, GE Aviation’s vice-president for Asia-Pacific Region Military Systems Operation disclosed to BW Businessworld in an exclusive interview.
“All technologies previously asked for by the government of India will be offered,” Kim announced. India had earlier sought the core engine or hot section technology for jet engines under the India-US Defence Trade and Technology Initiative (DTTI) but was turned down.
Export control concerns
That effort failed after the US cited export control concerns in transferring this technology. A joint working group on jet engine technology under the DTTI framework was thereafter disbanded in October 2019.
The turnaround by the US now is total and coincides with two ongoing Indian fighter jet procurements from the global market and a take-off stage in indigenous development and production of potentially hundreds of fighter jets over the next two decades.
So, what drove the US capitulation? “The defence relationship with India is strategically important for the US. Things have changed,” said Kim, while indicating that cutting-edge capability of GE’s Jack Welch Technology Center at Bengaluru could be leveraged for the AMCA jet engine programme.
Industry watchers read the US about-turn as a bid to retain its lead in powering India’s indigenous fighter jet programme, a position it does not wish to cede to European engine makers. The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas is powered by the GE-F404 engine, which has an 85kN thrust. India’s Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA)’s plans for the LCA Tejas Mk-2, AMCA Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft and the Twin Engine Deck-Based Fighter (TEDBF) are also closely woven around the 98kN thrust GE-F414 engine. Several hundred of these aircraft will be produced.
Only when the AMCA programme matures to the Mk-2 level does the ADA envisage switching from a GE-F414 to an indigenous engine with a higher 110kn thrust. It is for the development of that engine that India is seeking foreign collaboration. The AMCA Mk-2 production timelines commence around 2035. ADA also plans powering subsequent batches of the 26-ton TEDBF with the same indigenous engine as the AMCA’s.
The revival of the GE bid to co-develop the AMCA engine coincides with the development of an "Enhanced Performance Engine" or "EPE" variant of the GE-F414 for the US Navy’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and EA-18G Growler fleet. The EPE includes a new core and a redesigned fan and compressor, taking up the thrust by 18 per cent to 116kN. This matches or exceeds the requirements for the AMCA Mk-2.
Sources also disclosed that the EPE will have the same dimensions as the original GE-F414 variant. Hence, no modifications will be required to the air frame for fitment or retro-fitment on the initial variants of the AMCA, the TEDBF and even the Tejas Mk-2. India, of course, doesn’t seek a hand-me-down solution but wants to gain knowhow and know why through this programme to design, develop and produce jet engines on its own in the future.
Deal in the making
GE’s progress has been steady. “We expect a contract for close to 100 F414-GE-INS6 very soon,” Kim said. This follows the recent government approval for the LCA Mk-2 programme. A $716-million contract was signed by the engine company with Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) in 2021 for 99 F404 engines as power plants for the 83 Mk 1A variants of the homegrown fighter ordered by the IAF in 2021. Earlier, at least 41 F404 engines were ordered between 2004 and 2007 for the first two squadrons of the LCA Mk 1.
Top military sources have confirmed to BW Businessworld that GE is being considered along with Safran of France and Rolls Royce of the UK for collaboration on the AMCA engine. These bids are being energetically supported by their respective governments.
“The options for a tie-up are open from among the three contenders. The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is the lead agency and a private Indian entity is also likely to be involved in the programme,” sources disclosed.
Industry is clear about the priorities. “The objective of this collaboration must be to develop capability to design and build engines on our own in future,” says industry veteran Commodore Anil Jai Singh (Retired). He also sees merit in standardising the engine inventory for military jets and wants economies of scale leveraged for better price. “If there’s a big inventory for GE engines, it makes sense sticking to it, if the condition for meaningful transfer of technology is met,” says Singh.
No, they are willing to part with technology except it is very very old and it is of no consequence to them anymore as they have better version of that technology. GE needs lot of cash in the coming years to compete with P & W. P & W have cutting edge jet engine technology in both civilian and military spheres and now they are working on the next generation. GE is lagging behind. Once F - 16 and F - 18 are retired as more F - 35's come online then GE's role as engine provider for USAF will drastically be reduced. All versions of F-35's which are going to be dominant aircraft in USAF will be equipped with P & W Engine. F-22 already have P & W Engine.it's just screwdrivering
No. They are willing to part with technology in a way that makes India's fifth generation aircraft dependent on Uncle. The critical things like alloys will come from there and we will integrate. If the contract is for , say 500 engines, then we will not be able to make the 501st engine on our own.No, they are willing to part with technology except it is very very old and it is of no consequence to them anymore as they have better version of that technology. GE needs lot of cash in the coming years to compete with P & W. P & W have cutting edge jet engine technology in both civilian and military spheres and now they are working on the next generation. GE is lagging behind. Once F - 16 and F - 18 are retired as more F - 35's come online then GE's role as engine provider for USAF will drastically be reduced. All versions of F-35's which are going to be dominant aircraft in USAF will be equipped with P & W Engine. F-22 already have P & W Engine.
And by the looks of it the coming 6th generation too will have P & W Engine. GE's role will severely going to be decreased in the coming years in the military sphere if things are going as they are now. GE will have to be contend with supplying engines only to passenger and cargo aircrafts.
That does means that High Altitude of Kavari is progressing well and might be possible come out with flying colours.The specifics of the American offer become clearer.. somewhat!
Second Thoughts
The US has come back with its 2019 offer to jointly develop the AMCA jet engine with India shedding ‘export control’ concerns, , Magazine Issue 5 Nov 2022www.businessworld.in
Second Thoughts
The US has come back with its 2019 offer to jointly develop the AMCA jet engine with India shedding ‘export control’ concerns
View attachment 180503
The US has revived an offer to cooperate with India on the development of jet engine technology which could be used to power the Mk-2 variant of India’s futuristic Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).
General Electric (GE) of the US, one of the world’s leading manufacturers of jet engines, has submitted a proposal for the co-development of a 110 kN thrust engine with Indian agencies for the stealth fighter.
Technologies developed for a 116 kN thrust derivative of GE’s F414 engine will be the baseline in this offer of cooperation, Youngje Kim, GE Aviation’s vice-president for Asia-Pacific Region Military Systems Operation disclosed to BW Businessworld in an exclusive interview.
“All technologies previously asked for by the government of India will be offered,” Kim announced. India had earlier sought the core engine or hot section technology for jet engines under the India-US Defence Trade and Technology Initiative (DTTI) but was turned down.
Export control concerns
That effort failed after the US cited export control concerns in transferring this technology. A joint working group on jet engine technology under the DTTI framework was thereafter disbanded in October 2019.
The turnaround by the US now is total and coincides with two ongoing Indian fighter jet procurements from the global market and a take-off stage in indigenous development and production of potentially hundreds of fighter jets over the next two decades.
So, what drove the US capitulation? “The defence relationship with India is strategically important for the US. Things have changed,” said Kim, while indicating that cutting-edge capability of GE’s Jack Welch Technology Center at Bengaluru could be leveraged for the AMCA jet engine programme.
Industry watchers read the US about-turn as a bid to retain its lead in powering India’s indigenous fighter jet programme, a position it does not wish to cede to European engine makers. The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas is powered by the GE-F404 engine, which has an 85kN thrust. India’s Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA)’s plans for the LCA Tejas Mk-2, AMCA Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft and the Twin Engine Deck-Based Fighter (TEDBF) are also closely woven around the 98kN thrust GE-F414 engine. Several hundred of these aircraft will be produced.
Only when the AMCA programme matures to the Mk-2 level does the ADA envisage switching from a GE-F414 to an indigenous engine with a higher 110kn thrust. It is for the development of that engine that India is seeking foreign collaboration. The AMCA Mk-2 production timelines commence around 2035. ADA also plans powering subsequent batches of the 26-ton TEDBF with the same indigenous engine as the AMCA’s.
The revival of the GE bid to co-develop the AMCA engine coincides with the development of an "Enhanced Performance Engine" or "EPE" variant of the GE-F414 for the US Navy’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and EA-18G Growler fleet. The EPE includes a new core and a redesigned fan and compressor, taking up the thrust by 18 per cent to 116kN. This matches or exceeds the requirements for the AMCA Mk-2.
Sources also disclosed that the EPE will have the same dimensions as the original GE-F414 variant. Hence, no modifications will be required to the air frame for fitment or retro-fitment on the initial variants of the AMCA, the TEDBF and even the Tejas Mk-2. India, of course, doesn’t seek a hand-me-down solution but wants to gain knowhow and know why through this programme to design, develop and produce jet engines on its own in the future.
Deal in the making
GE’s progress has been steady. “We expect a contract for close to 100 F414-GE-INS6 very soon,” Kim said. This follows the recent government approval for the LCA Mk-2 programme. A $716-million contract was signed by the engine company with Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) in 2021 for 99 F404 engines as power plants for the 83 Mk 1A variants of the homegrown fighter ordered by the IAF in 2021. Earlier, at least 41 F404 engines were ordered between 2004 and 2007 for the first two squadrons of the LCA Mk 1.
Top military sources have confirmed to BW Businessworld that GE is being considered along with Safran of France and Rolls Royce of the UK for collaboration on the AMCA engine. These bids are being energetically supported by their respective governments.
“The options for a tie-up are open from among the three contenders. The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is the lead agency and a private Indian entity is also likely to be involved in the programme,” sources disclosed.
Industry is clear about the priorities. “The objective of this collaboration must be to develop capability to design and build engines on our own in future,” says industry veteran Commodore Anil Jai Singh (Retired). He also sees merit in standardising the engine inventory for military jets and wants economies of scale leveraged for better price. “If there’s a big inventory for GE engines, it makes sense sticking to it, if the condition for meaningful transfer of technology is met,” says Singh.
But it's of no use incase of tejasThat does means that High Altitude of Kavari is progressing well and might be possible come out with flying colours.
Amricants has smelled the air.
Lets wait for the further news about Kavari.
Do fathom having capacity to build a Turbo Fan in class of GE-404But it's of no use incase of tejas
Only dry variant will see production for ghatak and for that they have lot of time I mean the induction is by 2030
No one is in hurry for Kaveri due to this reason
We can't derive a complete aero engine as it will be of no use due to being underpowered
Usa entering is bcoz they don't want our dependence on them to reduce especially in critical technologies and more importantly controlling our learning and keeping things in their hand
Anyways bro we don't have engines for mk1 or mk1a or mk2 or amca mk1 or amca mk2Do fathom having capacity to build a Turbo Fan in class of GE-404
It means A country has arrived at a threshold of Super Exclusive Technology.
Now everybody will offer their CURRENT LEVEL TECH to muzzle further refinement of this achievement. Just tangle the incumbent with COPY RIGHT and PATENT issues, hold it a "Screwdriver" and suffocate further development.
Its just matter of time all will come be it SAFFRON, GE or RR.
Ever fathom why they suddenly come out of their "selective amnesia", for a DEAD OFFER which they themselves buried 6 Feet under ??????
how is it a big step??Big step for India's AMCA programme as Rolls-Royce confirms export licence for combat engine technology transfer
The Intellectual Property (IP) for this technology will be developed and owned in India for the AMCA (Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft) programme
Ajeyo Basu April 07, 2023 15:10:45 IST
The combat engine technology transfer to India by Rolls-Royce will be for the purpose of combat engine development with a unique co-creation model Image Courtesy PTI
New Delhi: In a major boost for the Atmanirbhar Bharat initiative of the Indian government, Rolls-Royce has confirmed an export license from the UK government for combat engine technology transfer to India.
A report by Indian Defence Research Wing (IDRW) quoted officials from Rolls-Royce as saying that the combat engine technology transfer to India will be for the purpose of combat engine development with a unique co-creation model.
The Intellectual Property (IP) for this technology will be developed and owned in India for the AMCA (Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft) programme.
General Electric wants export licence for India
General Electric (GE), which is based in the US, has also requested the US government for an export licence that will fund the joint development of a combat engine for India’s AMCA programme.
General Electric (GE) has also gained backing for these programmes from several members of the US Congress. But the request is currently awaiting approval.
Rolls-Royce has claimed that even if India receives orders for the AMCA programme from other nations, General Electric (GE) will never permit India to retain Intellectual Property (IP) for the engine that it is offering to co-develop for India and will require GE and US administration clearance for export of this engine to other countries.
General Electric (GE) proposes to establish an engine subsidiary in India with a supply chain composed of companies from the private sector.
Technically, it is possible to produce everything totally domestically, but its local engine subsidiary will continue to have the ToT and other Intellectual Property (IP) rights.
Implications for India’s security scenario
The AMCA programme is intended to enable India to develop a fighter aircraft capable of taking on the PLA Air Force (PLAAF) of China. It is expected to counter the JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft of China, which is also used by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF).
The AMCA programme is expected to be a crucial step for India in the quest to develop a fifth generation fighter aircraft.
The Indian Air Force (IAF) is suffering from a worrying shortfall in the number of fighter squadrons and an indegenously developed fighter aircraft is expected to fill this gap.
Earlier this year, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) had announced the ‘metal cutting’ for the first prototype of the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).
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Updated Date: April 07, 2023 15:24:13 IST
Big step for India's AMCA programme as Rolls-Royce confirms export licence for combat engine technology transfer
The Intellectual Property (IP) for this technology will be developed and owned in India for the AMCA (Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft) programmewww.firstpost.com
Earlier their promises were hanging in thin air, now it is backed by the UK govt- so if a deal fructifies there will be no legislative delays/hurdles to cross from the tech donor country. Considering how turbojet tech is closely guarded- this is a big step indeed in terms of opening doors for us. Does it mean we should not mature Kaveri even further? Heck no! Use whatever we get from anywhere and move those learnings back to Kaveri.how is it a big step??
It's just screwdrivergiri
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