110kn class engine development

MonaLazy

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The specifics of the American offer become clearer.. somewhat!


Second Thoughts
The US has come back with its 2019 offer to jointly develop the AMCA jet engine with India shedding ‘export control’ concerns


1667646267984.png


The US has revived an offer to cooperate with India on the development of jet engine technology which could be used to power the Mk-2 variant of India’s futuristic Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

General Electric (GE) of the US, one of the world’s leading manufacturers of jet engines, has submitted a proposal for the co-development of a 110 kN thrust engine with Indian agencies for the stealth fighter.

Technologies developed for a 116 kN thrust derivative of GE’s F414 engine will be the baseline in this offer of cooperation, Youngje Kim, GE Aviation’s vice-president for Asia-Pacific Region Military Systems Operation disclosed to BW Businessworld in an exclusive interview.

“All technologies previously asked for by the government of India will be offered,” Kim announced. India had earlier sought the core engine or hot section technology for jet engines under the India-US Defence Trade and Technology Initiative (DTTI) but was turned down.

Export control concerns

That effort failed after the US cited export control concerns in transferring this technology. A joint working group on jet engine technology under the DTTI framework was thereafter disbanded in October 2019.

The turnaround by the US now is total and coincides with two ongoing Indian fighter jet procurements from the global market and a take-off stage in indigenous development and production of potentially hundreds of fighter jets over the next two decades.

So, what drove the US capitulation? “The defence relationship with India is strategically important for the US. Things have changed,” said Kim, while indicating that cutting-edge capability of GE’s Jack Welch Technology Center at Bengaluru could be leveraged for the AMCA jet engine programme.

Industry watchers read the US about-turn as a bid to retain its lead in powering India’s indigenous fighter jet programme, a position it does not wish to cede to European engine makers.
The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas is powered by the GE-F404 engine, which has an 85kN thrust. India’s Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA)’s plans for the LCA Tejas Mk-2, AMCA Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft and the Twin Engine Deck-Based Fighter (TEDBF) are also closely woven around the 98kN thrust GE-F414 engine. Several hundred of these aircraft will be produced.

Only when the AMCA programme matures to the Mk-2 level does the ADA envisage switching from a GE-F414 to an indigenous engine with a higher 110kn thrust. It is for the development of that engine that India is seeking foreign collaboration. The AMCA Mk-2 production timelines commence around 2035. ADA also plans powering subsequent batches of the 26-ton TEDBF with the same indigenous engine as the AMCA’s.

The revival of the GE bid to co-develop the AMCA engine coincides with the development of an "Enhanced Performance Engine" or "EPE" variant of the GE-F414 for the US Navy’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and EA-18G Growler fleet
. The EPE includes a new core and a redesigned fan and compressor, taking up the thrust by 18 per cent to 116kN. This matches or exceeds the requirements for the AMCA Mk-2.

Sources also disclosed that the EPE will have the same dimensions as the original GE-F414 variant. Hence, no modifications will be required to the air frame for fitment or retro-fitment on the initial variants of the AMCA, the TEDBF and even the Tejas Mk-2. India, of course, doesn’t seek a hand-me-down solution but wants to gain knowhow and know why through this programme to design, develop and produce jet engines on its own in the future.

Deal in the making


GE’s progress has been steady. “We expect a contract for close to 100 F414-GE-INS6 very soon,” Kim said. This follows the recent government approval for the LCA Mk-2 programme. A $716-million contract was signed by the engine company with Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) in 2021 for 99 F404 engines as power plants for the 83 Mk 1A variants of the homegrown fighter ordered by the IAF in 2021. Earlier, at least 41 F404 engines were ordered between 2004 and 2007 for the first two squadrons of the LCA Mk 1.

Top military sources have confirmed to BW Businessworld that GE is being considered along with Safran of France and Rolls Royce of the UK for collaboration on the AMCA engine. These bids are being energetically supported by their respective governments.

The options for a tie-up are open from among the three contenders. The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is the lead agency and a private Indian entity is also likely to be involved in the programme,” sources disclosed.

Industry is clear about the priorities. “The objective of this collaboration must be to develop capability to design and build engines on our own in future,” says industry veteran Commodore Anil Jai Singh (Retired). He also sees merit in standardising the engine inventory for military jets and wants economies of scale leveraged for better price. “If there’s a big inventory for GE engines, it makes sense sticking to it, if the condition for meaningful transfer of technology is met,” says Singh.
 

Vamsi

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The specifics of the American offer become clearer.. somewhat!


Second Thoughts
The US has come back with its 2019 offer to jointly develop the AMCA jet engine with India shedding ‘export control’ concerns


View attachment 180503

The US has revived an offer to cooperate with India on the development of jet engine technology which could be used to power the Mk-2 variant of India’s futuristic Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

General Electric (GE) of the US, one of the world’s leading manufacturers of jet engines, has submitted a proposal for the co-development of a 110 kN thrust engine with Indian agencies for the stealth fighter.

Technologies developed for a 116 kN thrust derivative of GE’s F414 engine will be the baseline in this offer of cooperation, Youngje Kim, GE Aviation’s vice-president for Asia-Pacific Region Military Systems Operation disclosed to BW Businessworld in an exclusive interview.

“All technologies previously asked for by the government of India will be offered,” Kim announced. India had earlier sought the core engine or hot section technology for jet engines under the India-US Defence Trade and Technology Initiative (DTTI) but was turned down.

Export control concerns

That effort failed after the US cited export control concerns in transferring this technology. A joint working group on jet engine technology under the DTTI framework was thereafter disbanded in October 2019.

The turnaround by the US now is total and coincides with two ongoing Indian fighter jet procurements from the global market and a take-off stage in indigenous development and production of potentially hundreds of fighter jets over the next two decades.

So, what drove the US capitulation? “The defence relationship with India is strategically important for the US. Things have changed,” said Kim, while indicating that cutting-edge capability of GE’s Jack Welch Technology Center at Bengaluru could be leveraged for the AMCA jet engine programme.

Industry watchers read the US about-turn as a bid to retain its lead in powering India’s indigenous fighter jet programme, a position it does not wish to cede to European engine makers.
The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas is powered by the GE-F404 engine, which has an 85kN thrust. India’s Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA)’s plans for the LCA Tejas Mk-2, AMCA Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft and the Twin Engine Deck-Based Fighter (TEDBF) are also closely woven around the 98kN thrust GE-F414 engine. Several hundred of these aircraft will be produced.

Only when the AMCA programme matures to the Mk-2 level does the ADA envisage switching from a GE-F414 to an indigenous engine with a higher 110kn thrust. It is for the development of that engine that India is seeking foreign collaboration. The AMCA Mk-2 production timelines commence around 2035. ADA also plans powering subsequent batches of the 26-ton TEDBF with the same indigenous engine as the AMCA’s.

The revival of the GE bid to co-develop the AMCA engine coincides with the development of an "Enhanced Performance Engine" or "EPE" variant of the GE-F414 for the US Navy’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and EA-18G Growler fleet
. The EPE includes a new core and a redesigned fan and compressor, taking up the thrust by 18 per cent to 116kN. This matches or exceeds the requirements for the AMCA Mk-2.

Sources also disclosed that the EPE will have the same dimensions as the original GE-F414 variant. Hence, no modifications will be required to the air frame for fitment or retro-fitment on the initial variants of the AMCA, the TEDBF and even the Tejas Mk-2. India, of course, doesn’t seek a hand-me-down solution but wants to gain knowhow and know why through this programme to design, develop and produce jet engines on its own in the future.

Deal in the making


GE’s progress has been steady. “We expect a contract for close to 100 F414-GE-INS6 very soon,” Kim said. This follows the recent government approval for the LCA Mk-2 programme. A $716-million contract was signed by the engine company with Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) in 2021 for 99 F404 engines as power plants for the 83 Mk 1A variants of the homegrown fighter ordered by the IAF in 2021. Earlier, at least 41 F404 engines were ordered between 2004 and 2007 for the first two squadrons of the LCA Mk 1.

Top military sources have confirmed to BW Businessworld that GE is being considered along with Safran of France and Rolls Royce of the UK for collaboration on the AMCA engine. These bids are being energetically supported by their respective governments.

The options for a tie-up are open from among the three contenders. The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is the lead agency and a private Indian entity is also likely to be involved in the programme,” sources disclosed.

Industry is clear about the priorities. “The objective of this collaboration must be to develop capability to design and build engines on our own in future,” says industry veteran Commodore Anil Jai Singh (Retired). He also sees merit in standardising the engine inventory for military jets and wants economies of scale leveraged for better price. “If there’s a big inventory for GE engines, it makes sense sticking to it, if the condition for meaningful transfer of technology is met,” says Singh.
it's just screwdrivering
 

Concard

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it's just screwdrivering
No, they are willing to part with technology except it is very very old and it is of no consequence to them anymore as they have better version of that technology. GE needs lot of cash in the coming years to compete with P & W. P & W have cutting edge jet engine technology in both civilian and military spheres and now they are working on the next generation. GE is lagging behind. Once F - 16 and F - 18 are retired as more F - 35's come online then GE's role as engine provider for USAF will drastically be reduced. All versions of F-35's which are going to be dominant aircraft in USAF will be equipped with P & W Engine. F-22 already have P & W Engine.

And by the looks of it the coming 6th generation too will have P & W Engine. GE's role will severely going to be decreased in the coming years in the military sphere if things are going as they are now. GE will have to be contend with supplying engines only to passenger and cargo aircrafts.
 

Javelin_Sam

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No, they are willing to part with technology except it is very very old and it is of no consequence to them anymore as they have better version of that technology. GE needs lot of cash in the coming years to compete with P & W. P & W have cutting edge jet engine technology in both civilian and military spheres and now they are working on the next generation. GE is lagging behind. Once F - 16 and F - 18 are retired as more F - 35's come online then GE's role as engine provider for USAF will drastically be reduced. All versions of F-35's which are going to be dominant aircraft in USAF will be equipped with P & W Engine. F-22 already have P & W Engine.

And by the looks of it the coming 6th generation too will have P & W Engine. GE's role will severely going to be decreased in the coming years in the military sphere if things are going as they are now. GE will have to be contend with supplying engines only to passenger and cargo aircrafts.
No. They are willing to part with technology in a way that makes India's fifth generation aircraft dependent on Uncle. The critical things like alloys will come from there and we will integrate. If the contract is for , say 500 engines, then we will not be able to make the 501st engine on our own.
Also the n number of alphabet soup agreements that we will have to sign and 'experts' stationed in IAF airbases to handle the 'niche' technology.
Heck even the French brothers were not spared when Uncle Sams Steam Catobar was integrated to CDG and CDG has Uncle's Navy experts on ship to take care of niche tech. Same with EMALS.
Parallelly Ashley Tellis' gyan on Indias nuclear weapon program and partnering in nuke sub tech last week at a time when second Arihant boomer is about to be commissioned and news of k15/k4/k6 test firings. Uncle is scratching its head to sneak in and hijack into Indias weapons program in the name of quad and interroperability and strategic partners. The whole world is witnessing what is the fate of strategic partners in EU and Nato. Hope Indraprastham will stay away from all this 'Transfer of Technology'
 

Ugra Bhairav

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The specifics of the American offer become clearer.. somewhat!


Second Thoughts
The US has come back with its 2019 offer to jointly develop the AMCA jet engine with India shedding ‘export control’ concerns


View attachment 180503

The US has revived an offer to cooperate with India on the development of jet engine technology which could be used to power the Mk-2 variant of India’s futuristic Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

General Electric (GE) of the US, one of the world’s leading manufacturers of jet engines, has submitted a proposal for the co-development of a 110 kN thrust engine with Indian agencies for the stealth fighter.

Technologies developed for a 116 kN thrust derivative of GE’s F414 engine will be the baseline in this offer of cooperation, Youngje Kim, GE Aviation’s vice-president for Asia-Pacific Region Military Systems Operation disclosed to BW Businessworld in an exclusive interview.

“All technologies previously asked for by the government of India will be offered,” Kim announced. India had earlier sought the core engine or hot section technology for jet engines under the India-US Defence Trade and Technology Initiative (DTTI) but was turned down.

Export control concerns

That effort failed after the US cited export control concerns in transferring this technology. A joint working group on jet engine technology under the DTTI framework was thereafter disbanded in October 2019.

The turnaround by the US now is total and coincides with two ongoing Indian fighter jet procurements from the global market and a take-off stage in indigenous development and production of potentially hundreds of fighter jets over the next two decades.

So, what drove the US capitulation? “The defence relationship with India is strategically important for the US. Things have changed,” said Kim, while indicating that cutting-edge capability of GE’s Jack Welch Technology Center at Bengaluru could be leveraged for the AMCA jet engine programme.

Industry watchers read the US about-turn as a bid to retain its lead in powering India’s indigenous fighter jet programme, a position it does not wish to cede to European engine makers.
The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas is powered by the GE-F404 engine, which has an 85kN thrust. India’s Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA)’s plans for the LCA Tejas Mk-2, AMCA Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft and the Twin Engine Deck-Based Fighter (TEDBF) are also closely woven around the 98kN thrust GE-F414 engine. Several hundred of these aircraft will be produced.

Only when the AMCA programme matures to the Mk-2 level does the ADA envisage switching from a GE-F414 to an indigenous engine with a higher 110kn thrust. It is for the development of that engine that India is seeking foreign collaboration. The AMCA Mk-2 production timelines commence around 2035. ADA also plans powering subsequent batches of the 26-ton TEDBF with the same indigenous engine as the AMCA’s.

The revival of the GE bid to co-develop the AMCA engine coincides with the development of an "Enhanced Performance Engine" or "EPE" variant of the GE-F414 for the US Navy’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and EA-18G Growler fleet
. The EPE includes a new core and a redesigned fan and compressor, taking up the thrust by 18 per cent to 116kN. This matches or exceeds the requirements for the AMCA Mk-2.

Sources also disclosed that the EPE will have the same dimensions as the original GE-F414 variant. Hence, no modifications will be required to the air frame for fitment or retro-fitment on the initial variants of the AMCA, the TEDBF and even the Tejas Mk-2. India, of course, doesn’t seek a hand-me-down solution but wants to gain knowhow and know why through this programme to design, develop and produce jet engines on its own in the future.

Deal in the making


GE’s progress has been steady. “We expect a contract for close to 100 F414-GE-INS6 very soon,” Kim said. This follows the recent government approval for the LCA Mk-2 programme. A $716-million contract was signed by the engine company with Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) in 2021 for 99 F404 engines as power plants for the 83 Mk 1A variants of the homegrown fighter ordered by the IAF in 2021. Earlier, at least 41 F404 engines were ordered between 2004 and 2007 for the first two squadrons of the LCA Mk 1.

Top military sources have confirmed to BW Businessworld that GE is being considered along with Safran of France and Rolls Royce of the UK for collaboration on the AMCA engine. These bids are being energetically supported by their respective governments.

The options for a tie-up are open from among the three contenders. The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is the lead agency and a private Indian entity is also likely to be involved in the programme,” sources disclosed.

Industry is clear about the priorities. “The objective of this collaboration must be to develop capability to design and build engines on our own in future,” says industry veteran Commodore Anil Jai Singh (Retired). He also sees merit in standardising the engine inventory for military jets and wants economies of scale leveraged for better price. “If there’s a big inventory for GE engines, it makes sense sticking to it, if the condition for meaningful transfer of technology is met,” says Singh.
That does means that High Altitude of Kavari is progressing well and might be possible come out with flying colours.

Amricants has smelled the air.

Lets wait for the further news about Kavari.
 

jai jaganath

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That does means that High Altitude of Kavari is progressing well and might be possible come out with flying colours.

Amricants has smelled the air.

Lets wait for the further news about Kavari.
But it's of no use incase of tejas
Only dry variant will see production for ghatak and for that they have lot of time I mean the induction is by 2030
No one is in hurry for Kaveri due to this reason
We can't derive a complete aero engine as it will be of no use due to being underpowered
Usa entering is bcoz they don't want our dependence on them to reduce especially in critical technologies and more importantly controlling our learning and keeping things in their hand
 

Ugra Bhairav

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But it's of no use incase of tejas
Only dry variant will see production for ghatak and for that they have lot of time I mean the induction is by 2030
No one is in hurry for Kaveri due to this reason
We can't derive a complete aero engine as it will be of no use due to being underpowered
Usa entering is bcoz they don't want our dependence on them to reduce especially in critical technologies and more importantly controlling our learning and keeping things in their hand
Do fathom having capacity to build a Turbo Fan in class of GE-404

It means A country has arrived at a threshold of Super Exclusive Technology.

Now everybody will offer their CURRENT LEVEL TECH to muzzle further refinement of this achievement. Just tangle the incumbent with COPY RIGHT and PATENT issues, hold it a "Screwdriver" and suffocate further development.

Its just matter of time all will come be it SAFFRON, GE or RR.

Ever fathom why they suddenly come out of their "selective amnesia", for a DEAD OFFER which they themselves buried 6 Feet under ??????
 

jai jaganath

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Do fathom having capacity to build a Turbo Fan in class of GE-404

It means A country has arrived at a threshold of Super Exclusive Technology.

Now everybody will offer their CURRENT LEVEL TECH to muzzle further refinement of this achievement. Just tangle the incumbent with COPY RIGHT and PATENT issues, hold it a "Screwdriver" and suffocate further development.

Its just matter of time all will come be it SAFFRON, GE or RR.

Ever fathom why they suddenly come out of their "selective amnesia", for a DEAD OFFER which they themselves buried 6 Feet under ??????
Anyways bro we don't have engines for mk1 or mk1a or mk2 or amca mk1 or amca mk2
I mean inn terms of capability even with afterburner current can't give performance or thrust similar to ge-404 and after that serviceability maintainability need to be improved as we are new here
So we need foreign support atleast for amca mk2 or 110 kn as others are being imported and will be
If we need indigenous engine foreign collaboration is the only option but it's job on negotiators that how much juice could they squeeze from them as its very critical technology
But moral is we need foreign collaboration as our capability needs too much of time to develope along with uncertainty
 

MonaLazy

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Slightly OT, but Safran has been at work at the cutting edge of future jet engine tech- esp making more efficient engines of the future-


On why efficiency is so important


1674652436831.png
 

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