110kn class engine development

MonaLazy

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The USAF is ahead of the rest of the world in zeroth order, first order and even second order in terms jet engine technology development. Here comes the newest concept technology in the town, rotating detonation engine. It has given an R&D contract to P&W

In zero'th order, by which I mean contemporary low bypass jet engine technology it is already heads and shoulder ahead of the rest of the world and is still working on improving it for its current 4th generation fighter and bomber fleet.

In the 1st order, even while it is working on this upgrade, it has already worked with GE and successfully prototyped the Adaptive Cycle engine that will become part of the F-35 fleet by the end of the decade. So not just ahead but already developed the next gen of propulsion.

And now even when the next gen ADVET engine is under advanced stages of commercialization, it has already embarked on concept evaluation research & development of the next generation of propulsion technologies with the rotational detonation concept.

By not just moving one step ahead but increasing its pace of tech discovery and development US gets to control the paradigm of the tech in this domain for the next 30 - 50 years and dictate and control the direction, pace and nature of the tech from a dominant position.

Now, us the rest of the world, naturally get attuned to the idea that Adaptive cycle engine is the next gen and Rotation detonation is the tech gen after that. We never get a chance to explore newer paradigms on our own. We are already brought into this framework where the US

has first mover advantage as well as early mastery over the tech. Knowing the rest of the world's end users (armed forces and civilian), having no original conceptual capability of their own they would be forced to pursue this cycle, tune their tech upgrade & warfare strategies

around what the USAF has set. This will also make the armed forces push their local MICs to "make what the US has achieved in this tech" rather than being able to expolit any original capabilities that the respective nations' MICs may have. Pretty smart move.

To cut it short, by virtue of USAF being two steps ahead in the tech curve, it is able to determine the brochure specs and hence the GSQR of platforms that will be demanded by worldwide armies 2 decades down the line. Cause it has determined what the next tech is going to be.


Pratt & Whitney Wins Air Force Rotating-Detonation Engine Work

1646554908820.png




:shock:
 

Super Flanker

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What are we exactly looking at? Sometimes we say we need a 110 KN Engine and sometimes we say that we need a 125 KN engine and so on?

Like please someone clear the confusion here for me please. Thank you in advance.
 

RoaringTigerHiddenDragon

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The USAF is ahead of the rest of the world in zeroth order, first order and even second order in terms jet engine technology development. Here comes the newest concept technology in the town, rotating detonation engine. It has given an R&D contract to P&W

In zero'th order, by which I mean contemporary low bypass jet engine technology it is already heads and shoulder ahead of the rest of the world and is still working on improving it for its current 4th generation fighter and bomber fleet.

In the 1st order, even while it is working on this upgrade, it has already worked with GE and successfully prototyped the Adaptive Cycle engine that will become part of the F-35 fleet by the end of the decade. So not just ahead but already developed the next gen of propulsion.

And now even when the next gen ADVET engine is under advanced stages of commercialization, it has already embarked on concept evaluation research & development of the next generation of propulsion technologies with the rotational detonation concept.

By not just moving one step ahead but increasing its pace of tech discovery and development US gets to control the paradigm of the tech in this domain for the next 30 - 50 years and dictate and control the direction, pace and nature of the tech from a dominant position.

Now, us the rest of the world, naturally get attuned to the idea that Adaptive cycle engine is the next gen and Rotation detonation is the tech gen after that. We never get a chance to explore newer paradigms on our own. We are already brought into this framework where the US

has first mover advantage as well as early mastery over the tech. Knowing the rest of the world's end users (armed forces and civilian), having no original conceptual capability of their own they would be forced to pursue this cycle, tune their tech upgrade & warfare strategies

around what the USAF has set. This will also make the armed forces push their local MICs to "make what the US has achieved in this tech" rather than being able to expolit any original capabilities that the respective nations' MICs may have. Pretty smart move.

To cut it short, by virtue of USAF being two steps ahead in the tech curve, it is able to determine the brochure specs and hence the GSQR of platforms that will be demanded by worldwide armies 2 decades down the line. Cause it has determined what the next tech is going to be.


Pratt & Whitney Wins Air Force Rotating-Detonation Engine Work

View attachment 142194



:shock:
In the highest, very expensive technology no one can beat the US. Simply because the US can throw billions of dollars at R&D that no one else can. The US companies’ technology is behind almost all the top 100 super computers in the world as well. Anything ultra expensive like space launches, space telescopes etc, the US is so far ahead that only European countries by all getting together can slightly match. Of course EU is no threat to the US. China is the only other country that is currently outspending the US and EU in certain technologies and have some great tech in certain areas but still far from anywhere near developing the super expensive critical technology the US can. Soviet Union tried and matched the US for a long time but that process bled them heavily to the point of disintegration. So, it is no joke. The US is very, very good at throwing large amounts of money to build some amazing machines. If Russia and China join they could compete against the US to some degree and develop some critical technology like civilian aircraft engines. India, Israel and Japan if they really join can also produce some amazing tech. Let’s see.
 

[email protected]

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What are we exactly looking at? Sometimes we say we need a 110 KN Engine and sometimes we say that we need a 125 KN engine and so on?

Like please someone clear the confusion here for me please. Thank you in advance.
DRDO want to kill multiple birds with one stone. A 125 kN thrust engine will power AMCA MK2, TEDBF, LCA MK2 making them supercruise capable; as well as replace the Al-31 of Su-30mk1 as part of super-sukhoi programme.
 

Super Flanker

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For Supercruise we need more dry thrust not wet one.

Let's see what they will finally come up with by 2040. :)
How exactly would you define the Term "Super Cruise" though? Commonly Most people Define super Cruise as the ability to Travel at More than the speed of sound (Mach 1+ etc).

For example, the Federation of American Scientists defined supercruise as "the ability to cruise at speeds of one and a half times the speed of sound or greater without the use of afterburner for extended periods in combat configuration". So the Definition is a bit confusing to me.
20220220_142106.jpg
 

Super Flanker

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DRDO want to kill multiple birds with one stone. A 125 kN thrust engine will power AMCA MK2, TEDBF, LCA MK2 making them supercruise capable; as well as replace the Al-31 of Su-30mk1 as part of super-sukhoi programme.
What Makes you think that under Super Sukhoi Upgrade, the Engines of the SU-30 MKI will he replaced? I mean the current Saturn AL-31 engines used to power the MKI fleet is Still having lot of life in them still left.

And if I assume that in a Hypothetical scenario that we will indeed use a new 125KN engine in our Su-30 MKIs, than will the 125 KN Engine have Thrust vectoring Capability?
 

Flying Dagger

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How exactly would you define the Term "Super Cruise" though? Commonly Most people Define super Cruise as the ability to Travel at More than the speed of sound (Mach 1+ etc).

For example, the Federation of American Scientists defined supercruise as "the ability to cruise at speeds of one and a half times the speed of sound or greater without the use of afterburner for extended periods in combat configuration". So the Definition is a bit confusing to me.
View attachment 142393

There is no set bench mark for all the parameters for now.

But effective weapon payload fuel onboard and still able to maintain mach 1.2-1.4 + is the ideal .

That make sure better fuel efficiency less IR signature and energy available for dogfights.

In normal flight most aircraft will go subsonic.
 

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What Makes you think that under Super Sukhoi Upgrade, the Engines of the SU-30 MKI will he replaced? I mean the current Saturn AL-31 engines used to power the MKI fleet is Still having lot of life in them still left.

And if I assume that in a Hypothetical scenario that we will indeed use a new 125KN engine in our Su-30 MKIs, than will the 125 KN Engine have Thrust vectoring Capability?
The super-sukhoi programme will be done in phases. Once the operational life of the Al-31 engines expires, it will need a replacement.
Russsia has offered Al-41, but IAF has not shown any interest in that.
 

Super Flanker

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The super-sukhoi programme will be done in phases. Once the operational life of the Al-31 engines expires, it will need a replacement.
Russsia has offered Al-41, but IAF has not shown any interest in that.
Ok so let me assume that Indian Airforce does infact go for this new "125 KN" engine, my doubt is whether Indian Airforce will want the new 125 KN Engine with Thrust vectoring?

AL-31 engine of SU-30 MKI helped it in performing better and more Tighter manouveres due to Thrust vectoring.
 

Flying Dagger

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IAF will opt for IDZ 30 version adapted for flankers later . Indian engine is still far of reality and adapting it for Sukhoi is another step to walk.

First priority is Radar Avionics IRST upgrade weapon package upgrade.


For weapon package if we opt for Indian radar we will get Derby ER/Python

Meteor possibly and MICA RF

MICA IR ASRAAM

And all Russian missiles along with Indian .

I think we should immediately opt for 40-60 Sukhoi with Russian package upgrade and retire them by 2040.


And rest with Indian package slowly.

Later Engine can be integrated too.


TVC can be added to Indian engine whenever operational we may be able to do so ourselves or with Russian or other partner help.
 

Tshering22

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If IDRW is to be believed...

They don't know yet who the foreign consultant will be, but the project outline is set. & only 3 years for the first 8 engines! Are we that close or is it too ambitious?? It hints that all the v0 parts are already available with DRDO/consultant.

7 years (2029-30) to finish the program and 9 years for first serially produced engines (2031-32)- isn't that late? If AMCA Mk2 has to roll out by 2035 only 3-4 years of engine availability whereas for the simpler Mk2 GE specialists will be down by mid year to help with the integration and the plane will be ready by 2026-7, which means 4-5 years of overlap.

The report also mentions a flying test bed will be prepared for the program which will put 6 such engines through their paces.

Judging by the mannerisms of our respective leaders & the direction in which USA and India are headed, chances are that Safran will emerge as a partner more than GE. Let's wait for the announcement.

Personally though, I'd love to see What GTRE and RR could pull together. RR engines are beasts.
 

no smoking

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How exactly would you define the Term "Super Cruise" though? Commonly Most people Define super Cruise as the ability to Travel at More than the speed of sound (Mach 1+ etc).

For example, the Federation of American Scientists defined supercruise as "the ability to cruise at speeds of one and a half times the speed of sound or greater without the use of afterburner for extended periods in combat configuration". So the Definition is a bit confusing to me.
Travelling at a supersonic speed is not enough. Any modern fighter jet can do that.
You need to sustain that speed for at least 20+ minutes. (Generally >30 minutes)
 

Spitfire9

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I don't know much but I believe that drag rises in the transonic region. How far above mach 1 does drag start to reduce? I ask because if cruising on dry thrust at M1.05 burns a lot more fuel than cruising at M0.95, what is the advantage apart from getting to the target about 10% more quickly?
 

no smoking

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what is the advantage apart from getting to the target about 10% more quickly?
For the attackers, that means your enemy has 10% less response time which in turn increase your chance of break into the defense network and also increase your chance of escape in your returning journey.

For the defenders, that means you can manage the targets spreading in multiple area better which means less jets are required to defense the same size of sky battlefield.
 

Dark Sorrow

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What are we exactly looking at? Sometimes we say we need a 110 KN Engine and sometimes we say that we need a 125 KN engine and so on?

Like please someone clear the confusion here for me please. Thank you in advance.
Their is a serious policy paralysis w.r.t. to engine.
We are trying to develop a single engine that would suite all our aircraft Tejas Mk. 1A, Tejas Mk. 2, TEDBF, AMCA, etc. This approach will definitely cause problems.
The reason we get different rating every-time is because a different aircraft requires engine of different rating. Media in India has habit to report out of context and don't mention the rating of engine w.r.t. to aircraft when some official are quoting the engine ratings.
 

Javelin_Sam

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Their is a serious policy paralysis w.r.t. to engine.
We are trying to develop a single engine that would suite all our aircraft Tejas Mk. 1A, Tejas Mk. 2, TEDBF, AMCA, etc. This approach will definitely cause problems.
The reason we get different rating every-time is because a different aircraft requires engine of different rating. Media in India has habit to report out of context and don't mention the rating of engine w.r.t. to aircraft when some official are quoting the engine ratings.
No official sources have said that this one engine will go into everything from mk1a to AMCA to Super-Sukhoi. It's some stupid You-tube and twitter handles and ofcourse some great handles here in this forum that says nonsense like these. An engine mating process to an already designed aircraft is much more than thrust numbers and dimension. Only AMKA mk1, mk2 and TEDBF given that they are still in design phase can take this engine. Such an engine having dimensions of F414 but close to 80 KN in dry thrust will be nothing but ultra uber stuff second only to American PWs in F-35 and F-22. It will be expensive as hell to produce. So Tejas mk1a and Tejas mk2 getting this engine is all still wetdreams.
 

Hari Sud

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Now is best time to negotiate with France to get technological help to build 125kn engine. The world is caught in shooting war in Ukraine and also a bunch of sanctions which will affect everybody including France. Whatever they could not discuss previously will be discussed now and agreed to. The 125kn engine technology is one of them.

Moreover with Sanctions US proved itself to be unreliable in business dealings hence has to be a second choice. They subjected india to sanctions in 1999, even impounded the LCA which was in US for wind testing, hence cannot be trusted.
 

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