11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 injured

[kseeker]

Meerut: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 injured-India News - IBNLive Mobile

Meerut: A clash between officers and jawans of the 10 Sikh Light Infantry Unit has left three people injured including 2 officers and one jawan.
It is being said that the incident happened during a boxing match which led to an altercation between the jawans and officers.

A court of enquiry has been ordered and a disciplinary action is likely to be taken soon.
Sikh Light Infantry is the parent regiment of current Army Chief General Bikram Singh.

What's going on

 

[pankaj nema]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Jawans and Officers were in Dussehra mood

 

[sayareakd]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

boxing match has resulted into this................

 

[kseeker]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Clashes between Officers and Jawans is not a good sign for the IA and it's integrity.

Is this clash a result of of growing stress and frustrations among defence forces ?

Military discipline is vanishing gradually in Indian Defence forces ?

And why is this news even came out in the general media in the first place ?

@Ray @Decklander @pkroyal @pmaitra @Kunal Biswas - your thoughts please...

 

[maomao]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Sad state of affairs in our armed forces these days!

Off Topic: I believe if the current situation goes on and Con-gress survives another 10 years in power, our armed forces will be turned into beat constables and chowkidars by the coterie and as Nehru had wished!

A lackey armed forces is what is good for secularism and secular forces in India!

 

[Singh]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Whoa, Sikh LI is supposed to send another COAS.

 

[Blackwater]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Quality of jawans has low these days. officers should also not bring their wives to their fwd bases posting

 

[Decklander]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

To me it appears that jawans fought after the boxing bout and officers got hurt while trying to separate them. let us wait for the full news. Officers are barred from boxing games with jawans. I was a boxing blue in NDA but never boxed again for this very reason.

 

[Ray]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Clashes between Officers and Jawans is not a good sign for the IA and it's integrity.

Is this clash a result of of growing stress and frustrations among defence forces ?

Military discipline is vanishing gradually in Indian Defence forces ?

And why is this news even came out in the general media in the first place ?

@Ray @Decklander @pkroyal @pmaitra @Kunal Biswas - your thoughts please...

Now check this out.

I have given facts. I have given you the causes of stress.

And you have not been able to spell out anything factual even though you claim you have written a thesis on the subject!

The issue is not decry the Army unless you present facts, and if you present facts, you will be justified.

If you don't. then it is merely a rant of the disgruntled!
Ray ↑
There are multiple issues dogging the army, which are the causes of stress :-
1. From your time of commissioning (1966/67 ? ) approx five decades have passed, troops in Infantry are not of the ' angootha chap " variety.
2. With better education, there is a huge rise in aspiration among troops.
3. All of our recruits no longer come from purely rural areas, they come from semi urban nuclear families also. there is little or no support of the joint family in the village.
4. Officer is not the " Mai baap / ann data " as troops gave us that status when I joined in 1981, at least in my regiment. they thought the pay I was disbursing on pay day was from some fund which the " Sahib Bahadur's" controlled. Now it comes directly to their bank account.
5. Earlier when a " jawan's" child was sick a post card was sent to him by his wife / family which took about ten days to arrive at a far flung post. By then it would be assumed that the child has recovered. Today we are technology driven, the jawan's wife gives him a call on his mobile , probably when he is on sentry duty, cursing him as she has no one from the family to assist her in taking some one sick at home to the hospital, as she is staying in a semi urban area as a nuclear family to meet the educational needs of her children.
6. Today's world that includes you, me and everyone is a trifle more materialistic than what it was 50 years back.( Do I need to give statistics ??)
people in society ask for their rights, when not given due to various reasons, they sulk / agitate / get depressed. Our troops come from the same
society.
More on this later, as I got to take the Dog for a walk!
DO YOU BY ANY STRETCH OF IMAGINATION IMPLY WE GO BACK TO THE STONE AGE, OR COME IN BULLOCK CARTS AFTER LEAVE , WE LIVE IN A WORLD WITH 24 HOUR TELEVISION , OUR TROOPS ARE UNTRAINED ( IN MIND ), UNCOUTH & SEMI EDUCATED PEOPLE , THEY INTERPRET IMAGES THAT FLASH ACROSS THEIR TV SCREENS IN THEIR OWN WAY ,TRYING TO MAKE SOME SENSE OUT OF THIS INFORMATION OVERLOAD, CAN YOU CONTROL THE TELEVISION CHANNELS AND THE INDIRECT EFFECT OF ADS & TRIGGERING OF BUYING IMPULSE FOR GOOD LIVING AND LIFE STYLE, DOES TV ONLY ENTERTAIN / INFORM ?? OR RAISE ASPIRATION WHICH WILL MAKE A SPARTAN VULNERABLE TO
INDUCEMENT ?? QUESTION WITH NO READY MADE ANSWERS ?? OUR 11 LAKH PLUS ARMY IS GRAPPLING WITH THIS AND MUCH MORE IN TERMS OF MAN MANAGEMENT.

Generalisation and clichés do not support a discussion.

There are multiple issues dogging the army, which are the causes of stress :-
1. From your time of commissioning (1966/67 ? ) approx five decades have passed, troops in Infantry are not of the 'angootha chap " variety.
2. With better education, there is a huge rise in aspiration among troops.
3. All of our recruits no longer come from purely rural areas, they come from semi urban nuclear families also. there is little or no support of the joint family in the village.
4. Officer is not the " Mai baap / ann data " as troops gave us that status when I joined in 1981, at least in my regiment. they thought the pay I was disbursing on pay day was from some fund which the " Sahib Bahadur's" controlled. Now it comes directly to their bank account.
Troops were not angootha chhaps, even if your worn out clichés of apologists are taken to be the Gospel that spanned the years I was in the Army. When I commanded the unit, it was way in the fag of 80s and beginning of the 90s. Surely, they were not what you so colourfully attribute to as angootha chhaps!

I assure, education had visited them, there were the urbanites and they did have aspirations and ambitions, as you have it today.

May I assure you that the joint family system started breaking up when the Zamindari system was abolished and accelerated to vanishing from the time Land Ceiling came into being.

It is an exaggeration to take it that when you joined in 1981 the troops thought that their pay was coming from a fund controlled by the 'Sahib Bahadur'. When I joined decades before you did, they knew where there pay was coming from and that was the PAO! I am not too sure about your Regiment's ways, but I will ask Lt Gen Ashoke 'Tarzan' Kapoor of your Regiment when I meet him this year at our Course's Golden Jubilee get together at the NDA. I have served along with 5 SIKH LI twice, once when it was commanded by Lt Col (later Lt Gen) Chatterjee in 25 Div and then at Chamkot, commanded by a very fine Sikh Officer who was my Instructor in CIJW and US returned. Also at Kanpur, 12 SIKH LI at Kanpur commanded by Lt Col Mangat was from our Brigade and was located adjacent to my Company Lines. My own Company Commander Lt Col RS Vishwen went to Sikh LI. I would disagree with you if you feel that SIKH LI chaps felt that their pay came out of some fund that was of the 'Sahib Bahadur'. Before the money that they did not draw was left in their account with the PAO and which they withdrew while going on leave, now it is with the bank!

In fact, I found the SIKH LI chaps cleverer than my boys. To indicate so, I recall an incident when 12 SIKH LI was having their Annual Adm Inspection. They had flinched things from my Company Stores to make up their deficiencies, but were good enough to return it to the CQMH after the inspection along with a plate of pakoras and invited the CQMH and some more to join them for Barakhana that was being organised for a successful Adm Insp. That is another example to rubbish/debunk another old women's tale that the SIKH LI chaps are 'dicey Joes'. In fact, they are a fine set. And they are most innovative and enterprising. Hardly, the angootha chhaps!

5. Earlier when a " jawan's" child was sick a post card was sent to him by his wife / family which took about ten days to arrive at a far flung post. By then it would be assumed that the child has recovered. Today we are technology driven, the jawan's wife gives him a call on his mobile , probably when he is on sentry duty, cursing him as she has no one from the family to assist her in taking some one sick at home to the hospital, as she is staying in a semi urban area as a nuclear family to meet the educational needs of her children.
6. Today's world that includes you, me and everyone is a trifle more materialistic than what it was 50 years back.( Do I need to give statistics ??)
people in society ask for their rights, when not given due to various reasons, they sulk / agitate / get depressed. Our troops come from the same society.
I wonder how many jawans who go to field area leave or afford to leave their wives in a rented tenement in a city or village, far away from their homes or the military. Today, there are Separated Family Quarters (SFQ) in all military stations and Regimental Centres with KVs for education of their children.

Every SFQ is like a mini township with all the facilities within the complex. There is the MI Room with an Ambulance, the kirana shops, other shops, a truck comes to do the round with vegetable (and they are cheaper than the market, since it is got from the wholesale market), school buses to take the children to school and bring them back, CSD outlet, MES maintenance team, for electricity and infrastructure problem, sentries, and the rounds by the Monthly Station Officers Wives visit to the SFQ to interact with the wives to know of the issues that vex them. Therefore, to feel that a wife rings up on a mobile to chide that why is the soldier not there to take the child to hospital, though possible, is but the exception than a rule.

I would find it odd that a jawan does not take the advantage of the SFQ and the KV Schools for education of their children and instead leave his wife in a city in a rented room, all on her own, to fend for herself and her children!

It is correct that today materialism has crept in. Nothing wrong or unusual. However, the issue is that there is a difference between materialism and greed.

There is a difference between materialism and greed. This difference is being lost sight of in the contemporary Army society as a fallout of the general Indian society. Today's, newspaper indicates that prize crook Lt Gen Sahni ex DG ASC has been dismissed but saved from being cashiered by the Army Tribunal. He is the type who is a disgrace to the military since he could not differentiate materialism from greed! I would attribute this lack of character to poor grooming by his seniors.

I would like to assure you that the basic necessities and aspirations are within the reach of all ranks, commensurate to their pay. There is the CSD where you can buy white goods, and then there is the EMI that is always there by a variety of financial organisations and the banks. It is true that one cannot buy a Lamborghini on the pay or even the EMI, but today's officers can sure buy say, a Skoda and the PBOR a Maruti or Nano. In fact, should you visit a unit at PT you would find a whole lot of scooters, cars and what have you. In my time, it was a Hind or an Atlas cycle and that too, of the officers.

The moral is – aspiration, materialism, is all very good, but one has to learn to cut one's clothes as per the cloth.

That comes about my close interaction amongst each other and with his command. Fancily, it is called Man Management!

As far as demanding of right is concerned, when you give it to him before he asks or explain to him like a rational being that it is difficult, no one is a fool not to realise the situation.

Now, what does a soldier want – pay, leave, food.

Where the problem lies is that one leaves it to the PAO and the computer. Check your pension, you will find anomalies. Likewise, the Company Commander must be on the ball and check that all the DO IIs have been accounted for. One of the allowances that is missed out is the road mileage for troops who are up in the hills. Must check that and inform the trooper. He will know you care for him! Tell him and encourage him to avail LTA. Now, that some come under IT, teach him tax planning. In short, involve yourself with your men. Sadly, few officers have the inclination or the time! There likes the disconnect.

Leave. Plan it and announce the same to the company, after getting their choice, so that each knows when he is to do and so can plan ahead. Let leave not be a game of chance or a result of buttering up the senior JCO on his district affiliation with the JCO.

Casual Leave. Explain to the troops the distribution of strength commensurate to the operational requirement. Indicate the figures essential to meet the same. Indicate the number required for Adm duties. Indicate the figures for Course and TD. Let them join in, in feeling that they are not just 'working hands' and zombies. Then have a 'Leave Committee' composed of all ranks. Let them realise how difficult it is to balance operational requirements and leave. Soon, they will give up and leave it to you. But still consult them, as if they matter! Make people feel important and useful!

Food. A very sore point with all. Ensure the cooks have a relief. They are also human. Train non cooks to be replacement. Ensure that the chappatis are not uncooked on the rims. Ensure that the spices are available and there is no overdose to make it unpalatable. Reject substandard vegetable and take it up with the CO. Ensure that the meat is delivered as per the scale and that the liver etc are not taken away by the JCOs' Mess and also ensure that the liver etc after cooking is not consumed solely by NCOs. It might take away 'quality time' from your family, but once things settle down and they know you are capable of a 'surprise' visit, the skulduggery will be less. And the important lesson that will be driven home is that You Care. If there still some gaps, they will know that it is not because you did not try!

DO YOU BY ANY STRETCH OF IMAGINATION IMPLY WE GO BACK TO THE STONE AGE, OR COME IN BULLOCK CARTS AFTER LEAVE , WE LIVE IN A WORLD WITH 24 HOUR TELEVISION , OUR TROOPS ARE UNTRAINED ( IN MIND ), UNCOUTH & SEMI EDUCATED PEOPLE , THEY INTERPRET IMAGES THAT FLASH ACROSS THEIR TV SCREENS IN THEIR OWN WAY ,TRYING TO MAKE SOME SENSE OUT OF THIS INFORMATION OVERLOAD, CAN YOU CONTROL THE TELEVISION CHANNELS AND THE INDIRECT EFFECT OF ADS & TRIGGERING OF BUYING IMPULSE FOR GOOD LIVING AND LIFE STYLE, DOES TV ONLY ENTERTAIN / INFORM ?? OR RAISE ASPIRATION WHICH WILL MAKE A SPARTAN VULNERABLE TO
INDUCEMENT ?? QUESTION WITH NO READY MADE ANSWERS ?? OUR 11 LAKH PLUS ARMY IS GRAPPLING WITH THIS AND MUCH MORE IN TERMS OF MAN MANAGEMENT.

No, we don't have to go back to the Stoneage.

We are not Flintstones!

No one should have to come back from leave, to quote you, OR COME IN BULLOCK CARTS AFTER LEAVE.. In fact, I would be delighted if they came back in a space rocket!

I am surprised that on one hand you say, the troops are no longer angoota chhap[/] and then conveniently to suit your argument you say, OUR TROOPS ARE UNTRAINED ( IN MIND ), UNCOUTH & SEMI EDUCATED PEOPLE ,

I am afraid you have to make up your mind and clear the cobwebs that are impeding your thoughts.

Yes, you can explain to your troops the issue raised by the 24 x 7 TV channels. There is the vehicle called the 'Company Durbar' which keeping to contemporary democratic times is called 'Company Sainik Sammelan'. One does not have to parrot the Govt view, but an educated and informed Company Commander or a CO can enunciate the pros and con as applicable to the Army. And, as you yourself said, today's troops are no fools, and I would add that they are well aware of what the Army can do and what it cannot do and what is beyond their realm.

every day about 35,554 persons from the jawan's family all over india report sick at the hospitals,that makes it 1481 persons per hour, considering 1/3 of our troops are combating insurgency , approx 500 calls are recd by diff men every hour throughout the day, some cases could be serious say 2 % ,that makes it 10 men per hour, some can take this some feel helpless ,it is this helplessness which is frustrating, nothing to do with leave, only education and availability of good medical facilities for his family back home. Even in echs all top hospitals are not empanelled whereas for the guy in civvy govt job a scheme called cghs empanels all top hospitals.
I agree every time a wife on a mobile complains, it does give rise to helplessness, be it of an officer or a PBOR.

The issue is educating a wife of the Army's duties, obligations and constraints. Sadly, that is not done, be it of an offier or a PBOR.

How many 'normal' women will accept the prolonged separation of the husband from the family? Yet they do, because they are 'educated' of the service constraints.

This is where AWWA plays its part and if they don't, then they are failing their duties.

Helplessness?

If inspite of all the facilities available, the family fails to use them, then sure there will be the helplessness.

So, who is to blame?

What makes you feel that the MHs and CHs are not top of the line?

Are you aware that even a solider or his family can be referred to the top of the line hospital?

The facilities are there. It is to be used and if not used, then there is no ground to whine!

Do you know why those who are out of uniform , premature and otherwise, are the ones who whine?

It is because they have lost the security of the Mai Baap warm embrace that made them exult in their 'goldfish existence'!

Be it an officer, JCO or even an OR!

Even in echs all top hospitals are not empanelled whereas for the guy in civvy govt job a scheme called cghs empanels all top hospitals.
Indeed, but first to the dirty, inefficient Govt hospital to be referred..

Now which MH you feel equals the filth and lack of care of a Govt hospital?

The grass always greener on the other side of the hill[/QUOTE]


**********************************************************

Clash is all because of lack of interactive relationship between the commanders and the command.

Each is too self consumed by the SELF!

 

[Ray]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

The incident took place in the 10 Sikh Light Infantry regiment during an inter-company boxing match there,

I am surprised and horrified that in an inter Company with the CO present, there can be such a horror.

Indicates the poor quality that staff the officer cadre and the total lack of manmangement.

Really, it takes the wind off my sails.

I think that though I am told I am of the StoneAge by PKroyal, I think those were better days.

And, to be fair, they were not 'angootha chhap'either as accused!

Bikram Singh should hang his head in shame.

What is happening to the Army?

 

[kseeker]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Clash is all because of lack of interactive relationship between the commanders and the command.

Each is too self consumed by the SELF!

This makes perfect sense !

 

[kseeker]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

What is happening to the Army?

It appears that, IA is totally influenced by current regime, it's impotency, dirty politics and not by it's superior values and discipline

 

[Ray]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

I maybe wrong, but one of the reasons if that today the solider does not have the requisite self esteem.

It is not only the lack of interactivity between the officers and the men, but also the way the Nation treats the community of soldiers.

There is the 24 x 7 TV. That impacts the soldier.

It lacklustre and cavalier attitude that the Govt shows towards the lives of the soldiers who die at front and in LICO, the manner in which the Govt denies the weapon and wherewithal that the soldier required to perform and the total disdain and lack of interest of powers that be in the Military

( Led by Raj Babbar, MPs abandon top-level defence briefing to 'catch flights'
Led by Raj Babbar, MPs abandon top-level defence briefing to 'catch flights' - The Times of India

they realise that they are mere puppets of no worth and gun fodder.

The manner in which the Govt handled the the beheading, 5 killed at the LC. and yet in a cavalier manner talking to Pakistan without a shred of conscience of the dead, does not instil in the soldiers that they are assets and the Nation cares for them.

Therefore, beyond the lack of cohesiveness of the command and the commanded, the feeling of being 'orphans' because of the Govt's stupidity, makes the soldier feel that they are in a void, where none cares.

With such a feeling, what is happening alarms that worse may come in the future!

 

[pkroyal]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Now check this out.








No, we don't have to go back to the Stoneage.

We are not Flintstones!

No one should have to come back from leave, to quote you, OR COME IN BULLOCK CARTS AFTER LEAVE.. In fact, I would be delighted if they came back in a space rocket!

I am surprised that on one hand you say, the troops are no longer angoota chhap[/] and then conveniently to suit your argument you say, OUR TROOPS ARE UNTRAINED ( IN MIND ), UNCOUTH & SEMI EDUCATED PEOPLE ,

I am afraid you have to make up your mind and clear the cobwebs that are impeding your thoughts.

Yes, you can explain to your troops the issue raised by the 24 x 7 TV channels. There is the vehicle called the 'Company Durbar' which keeping to contemporary democratic times is called 'Company Sainik Sammelan'. One does not have to parrot the Govt view, but an educated and informed Company Commander or a CO can enunciate the pros and con as applicable to the Army. And, as you yourself said, today's troops are no fools, and I would add that they are well aware of what the Army can do and what it cannot do and what is beyond their realm.

every day about 35,554 persons from the jawan's family all over india report sick at the hospitals,that makes it 1481 persons per hour, considering 1/3 of our troops are combating insurgency , approx 500 calls are recd by diff men every hour throughout the day, some cases could be serious say 2 % ,that makes it 10 men per hour, some can take this some feel helpless ,it is this helplessness which is frustrating, nothing to do with leave, only education and availability of good medical facilities for his family back home. Even in echs all top hospitals are not empanelled whereas for the guy in civvy govt job a scheme called cghs empanels all top hospitals.
I agree every time a wife on a mobile complains, it does give rise to helplessness, be it of an officer or a PBOR.

The issue is educating a wife of the Army's duties, obligations and constraints. Sadly, that is not done, be it of an offier or a PBOR.

How many 'normal' women will accept the prolonged separation of the husband from the family? Yet they do, because they are 'educated' of the service constraints.

This is where AWWA plays its part and if they don't, then they are failing their duties.

Helplessness?

If inspite of all the facilities available, the family fails to use them, then sure there will be the helplessness.

So, who is to blame?

What makes you feel that the MHs and CHs are not top of the line?

Are you aware that even a solider or his family can be referred to the top of the line hospital?

The facilities are there. It is to be used and if not used, then there is no ground to whine!

Do you know why those who are out of uniform , premature and otherwise, are the ones who whine?

It is because they have lost the security of the Mai Baap warm embrace that made them exult in their 'goldfish existence'!

Be it an officer, JCO or even an OR!

Even in echs all top hospitals are not empanelled whereas for the guy in civvy govt job a scheme called cghs empanels all top hospitals.
Indeed, but first to the dirty, inefficient Govt hospital to be referred..

Now which MH you feel equals the filth and lack of care of a Govt hospital?

The grass always greener on the other side of the hill

**********************************************************

Clash is all because of lack of interactive relationship between the commanders and the command.

Each is too self consumed by the SELF![/QUOTE]

Between angootha chap & semi educated is a spread, does not mean they are well educated.
the problem is what I put forward as a logical point is not accepted by you, but 05 Generals who were witness to the presentation of my thesis at AHQ found it useful. Your take is, only pronouncements made from your pulpit which is holier than thou make sense rest of the people are day dreaming. When I say my men were not literate in 1980's you jumped to the conclusion that they are not "dicey joes" but are clever & innovative. I can give the names of at least 07 boxers / wrestlers of my company who could not count the pay given to them , they assumed it was rightly disbursed. Does that make them any less fighters . NO.SM Sampooran Singh was totally illiterate, when ordered by the CO for certain tasks, he used to draw stick diagrams of human figures with gainti & belchas with strokes for time and a ground to indicate assembly. He could not write a word of hindi or punjabi till he retired ,kindly do not pontificate on the men I served all my youth and middle age with. At times your attempt at clairvoyance reveals " i know it all " attitude.
regarding your "fish bowl existence", again an inappropriate quote directed at the wrong person, I served with honour, chucked when superseeded and now do my own thing which is as satisfying as serving the fauj. no cribs on that front. So who is whining ??

 

[pkroyal]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

@ Ray
All along I have been discussing points from my thesis and the sampling of 1100 men across J & K at the LoC, IB, Peace Stations,RR units,Posts, High Altitude areas etc. Incidentally this study was ordered by the COAS and later on the scope was expanded as the DIPR aksed for a whopping sum of Rs 10 lakhs and three years to do it . I by the grace of good staff officers in Fmn's and co operative staff worked day & night to complete it single handedly in four months on a princely sum of Rs 40,000 /-. with a developed stress detecting software and a printed book with a ready reckoner. After my presentation I served for less than two years, a year at Samba, and approx an year in Bikaner and was granted my wish of a PMR which was pending with MS for some time. ( that is another story). Incidentally my book " Khushalli Ka Manovigyan " is a stress busting hand book for the NSG jawans. Check it out !! with Cdr NSG at Manesar. Do I come across as the disgruntled type. Do not see the world with coloured glasses Qoute. on the contrary I play golf every morning at the army golf club . swim ,use the squash court sometimes, and visit my alma mater often at Ajmer to groom kids for NDA etc. Sorry you got it all wrong, !!

 

[Ray]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

**********************************************************

Between angootha chap & semi educated is a spread, does not mean they are well educated.
the problem is what I put forward as a logical point is not accepted by you, but 05 Generals who were witness to the presentation of my thesis at AHQ found it useful. Your take is, only pronouncements made from your pulpit which is holier than thou make sense rest of the people are day dreaming. When I say my men were not literate in 1980's you jumped to the conclusion that they are not "dicey joes" but are clever & innovative. I can give the names of at least 07 boxers / wrestlers of my company who could not count the pay given to them , they assumed it was rightly disbursed. Does that make them any less fighters . NO.SM Sampooran Singh was totally illiterate, when ordered by the CO for certain tasks, he used to draw stick diagrams of human figures with gainti & belchas with strokes for time and a ground to indicate assembly. He could not write a word of hindi or punjabi till he retired ,kindly do not pontificate on the men I served all my youth and middle age with. At times your attempt at clairvoyance reveals " i know it all " attitude.
regarding your "fish bowl existence", again an inappropriate quote directed at the wrong person, I served with honour, chucked when superseeded and now do my own thing which is as satisfying as serving the fauj. no cribs on that front. So who is whining ??

One must understand the subtle difference between 'education' and 'being educated'.

A School Leaving Certificate is merely a certificate that one has gone through the process of education. But it is no criteria to judge that the person is 'educated'.

Education means you learned it in a school setting or set out to actually learn something. Educated means understanding and applying that education intelligently with analysis and intelligence.

The majority of soldiers today have 'education' but are not 'educated'. And School Leaving Certs in India is available without problem. We are well aware of the corruption in education as also in passing exam with the books open for cheating.

Furthermore, I am tempted to add - A little knowledge, as they say, is a dangerous thing!

Stress and Stress Management are buzz words and a fancy 'talking point' that are flying randomly since all are clutching at straws since they want some excuse to cover the disgusting situation that is happening of insubordination and gross insubordination. I am yet to see any General who will admit that he has no clue or he is wrong.

You were commissioned in the 90s and your wrestlers could not count and took their pay as given. Interesting! I will give them full mark for Faith in their 'Sahib Bahadur' to use your phrase. May I ask, when they were recruited, were there no education qualifications for recruitment like 8th Class or 10th Class?

How come they were recruited without the basic education for entry or am I to understand that the education in their area of recruitment did not cater for even the basic arithmetic?

The SM could have been uneducated. He would have years of service (30 year; that makes him a recruit in the 59s and early 60s) when it was education qualifications were possibly not mandatory. But your soldiers who were wrestlers? Or was your unit full of people who were of the 59s and uneducated?

No, I don't know all, but I can say I am observant and I have what in the army they call 'tolerance to ambiguity'. But then that ambiguity should be backed with logic, even if the logic is of the undistributed middle.

I am sure you have served with honour. I have no doubt about that. But even if one is superseded, which we all are sometimes or the other in our service, it is no reason to quit. But then, the choice is entirely of the individual. No issues on that.

Supersession is, in no way, an indication of incompetence. It is just that some got the vacancies before your number came. Further, no matter what the MS may say that the ACR is objective, I am of the opinion, that it is highly subjective and dependent on personal likes and dislikes and whims and fancies.

I was speaking to a senior officer in the MS Branch the other day, who informed me that most of the Armoured corps officers are 9 point ACR chaps! What tommy rot! All Napoleons!

At the danger of being labelled as 'holier than thou' and 'sermonising from the pulpit', you reinforce my point. The modern youth is ambitious and satisfied till he is winning. He takes his work as a career. The Stoneage people, well, quite a few, did not take the job as a career and instead took it as a calling. That is why, even after supersession, they soldiered on. Gen Patton come to mind, who for the love of soldiering worked under his junior Gen Omar Bradley.

Notwithstanding, I am delighted that you doing well in your new field and proud that the years of soldiering has given you the courage to 'attack' unknown new fields of enhancement and succeed.

More success to you!

 

[Ray]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

@ Ray
All along I have been discussing points from my thesis and the sampling of 1100 men across J & K at the LoC, IB, Peace Stations,RR units,Posts, High Altitude areas etc. Incidentally this study was ordered by the COAS and later on the scope was expanded as the DIPR aksed for a whopping sum of Rs 10 lakhs and three years to do it . I by the grace of good staff officers in Fmn's and co operative staff worked day & night to complete it single handedly in four months on a princely sum of Rs 40,000 /-. with a developed stress detecting software and a printed book with a ready reckoner. After my presentation I served for less than two years, a year at Samba, and approx an year in Bikaner and was granted my wish of a PMR which was pending with MS for some time. ( that is another story). Incidentally my book " Khushalli Ka Manovigyan " is a stress busting hand book for the NSG jawans. Check it out !! with Cdr NSG at Manesar. Do I come across as the disgruntled type. Do not see the world with coloured glasses Qoute. on the contrary I play golf every morning at the army golf club . swim ,use the squash court sometimes, and visit my alma mater often at Ajmer to groom kids for NDA etc. Sorry you got it all wrong, !!

Good for you.

I will be upfront and frank. Being a Stoneage soldier, I do not like all these 'scientific' studies and instead practical on hands issues.

I have seen extracts of the DIPR report. Civilian

The DIPR report collected data, through questionnaires and interviews, on over 2,000 soldiers serving in 15 (Srinagar) and 16 Corps (Nagrota) under the Northern Command at Udhampur and 3 Corps (Dimapur) and 4 Corps (Tezpur) under the Kolkata-based Eastern Command.

Questionnaire and Interviews, basically aims at the issues those who want answers to their complete the specific tasks and inquiry to which they are assigned and they are loaded. They do not get into the 'meat' of the issue.

Given the large number of officers and soldiers deployed in the field/ operational areas, is 2000 a size for a 'knowledgeable' report? Who are those who are in the DIPR? Civilians and psychiatrists who have never served in the military or even seen the rigours of field/ operational area to frame realistic questions or interview with knowledge.

Though your sample size is limited, it would be more relevant since you have military background to analyse and ferret further information that meets the eye.

Then there is no 'cover all' reason for stress. Each Regiment would have a different psychology and cause for stress. My troop's problems will not be similar to yours. Therefore, there is no one solution. Though, the cause maybe similar. The whole issue is too complex.

The only answer I can think of, and I am not sermonising from the pulpit, is let the CO be the boss and not be micromanaged. Let his decision be final. Give him the confidence to feel he is the Last Word. If that is done the message will percolate down the rank and file and the CO will take decision given the heavy weight of his responsibility.

Read the thread Rum, Bum and Mothorgan and you will realise that though I am from the Stoneage, I too, was as frolicsome as most of you modern youth!


BTW, I now recall the CO 5 SIKH LI's name at Chamkot - he was Lt Col Sohal! And his unit overnight made a helipad so that Farook Obdullah (I was the LO) could land and give a tongue lashing to the porters who were dismissed and complained to him! I have great regards for SIKH LI soldiers and that is why I said they are enterprising and innovative!


And keep up the good work you are doing for the Nation and the Army.

 

[Simple_Guy]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

History of Officer-Soldier relations in US Army

While certain relationships--gambling with, drinking with, or borrowing money from enlisted soldiers--were specifically forbidden, most relationships were judged by the effects of the relationship. Custom protected the officer from situations where undue familiarity would undermine command authority and thereby threaten the good order, morale, or discipline of the unit. It also protected the enlisted soldier from unprincipled officers who might take advantage of rank and position.

The custom against undue familiarity was based on class distinctions, as well as discipline, since officers in theory came mostly from the "upper class." World War II had a profound impact on the officer corps of the Army. The custom also changed slightly during the conflicts in Korea and Vietnam.

Posting this here because its publicly available information. Evolution of Officer-Soldier relations has also happened in other armies.

 

[pkroyal]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

Good for you.

I will be upfront and frank. Being a Stoneage soldier, I do not like all these 'scientific' studies and instead practical on hands issues.

I have seen extracts of the DIPR report. Civilian

The DIPR report collected data, through questionnaires and interviews, on over 2,000 soldiers serving in 15 (Srinagar) and 16 Corps (Nagrota) under the Northern Command at Udhampur and 3 Corps (Dimapur) and 4 Corps (Tezpur) under the Kolkata-based Eastern Command.

Questionnaire and Interviews, basically aims at the issues those who want answers to their complete the specific tasks and inquiry to which they are assigned and they are loaded. They do not get into the 'meat' of the issue.

Given the large number of officers and soldiers deployed in the field/ operational areas, is 2000 a size for a 'knowledgeable' report? Who are those who are in the DIPR? Civilians and psychiatrists who have never served in the military or even seen the rigours of field/ operational area to frame realistic questions or interview with knowledge.

Though your sample size is limited, it would be more relevant since you have military background to analyse and ferret further information that meets the eye.

Then there is no 'cover all' reason for stress. Each Regiment would have a different psychology and cause for stress. My troop's problems will not be similar to yours. Therefore, there is no one solution. Though, the cause maybe similar. The whole issue is too complex.

The only answer I can think of, and I am not sermonising from the pulpit, is let the CO be the boss and not be micromanaged. Let his decision be final. Give him the confidence to feel he is the Last Word. If that is done the message will percolate down the rank and file and the CO will take decision given the heavy weight of his responsibility.

Read the thread Rum, Bum and Mothorgan and you will realise that though I am from the Stoneage, I too, was as frolicsome as most of you modern youth!


BTW, I now recall the CO 5 SIKH LI's name at Chamkot - he was Lt Col Sohal! And his unit overnight made a helipad so that Farook Obdullah (I was the LO) could land and give a tongue lashing to the porters who were dismissed and complained to him! I have great regards for SIKH LI soldiers and that is why I said they are enterprising and innovative!


And keep up the good work you are doing for the Nation and the Army.

Thanks Etc

Incidentally two stone age ex army chiefs and one air force chief are facing corruption charges for Adarsh & Copter deal respectively. They negotiated these deals while in sevice, Leading from the front ?? at least six Lt Gen / Maj Gen's have been Court Martialled or are facing inquiry in the last five years, for serious charges, grooming and training youngsters ?? what a joke, the seniors need to set their house in order first. The previous army chief went to court for his DOB, a similar case of a Lt Gen who realised late in life that his DOB was wrong as it was from a tewa ( horoscope) which was wrongly filled up as his mother was illiterate. The number of court cases, stat & non-stat complaints by senior officers is mind boggling. They are all today's generation ??

 

[Decklander]

Re: 11/10/13: 10 Sikh Light Infantry officers and jawans clash, 3 inju

1999, kargil was a failure of senior officers of the IA and the situation was saved by the heroism of Junior officers. The rut in IA started way back in mid 80s with third pay commission. We no longer get candidates from well to do respected families who joined armed forces for the honour and not money. Now we have problems even between the NDA cadets who are children of officers and those who are children of JCOs.
After partition, the children of punjabi refugees grew up and joined forces in large numbers sometime in mid sixties. These guys grew up to be flag ranks in late 90s and they brought with them the mentality of looters. from ketchup col to booze brigadiers to those asking for Blue labels were nearly all punjabis.
One of the thread on DFI has clearly brought out that punjabis never fought a war in their history. they always surrendered to the invaders meekly. The first round of battle used to be on Khyber and next Panipat. Nothing in Punjab. The short period of dominance of Punjabis in mid 18th century was due to the third battle of panipat which resulted in complete destruction of Afgan forces even after winning the battle, to such an extent that they never recovered from it. And pls have a look at the roll of dishonour of IA+IAF+IN, Punjabis have defeated evryone in that. Only place where they have been victorious.
two Punjabi Generals, JJ & Kapoor together have done more damage to IA than anyone else in the history of IA. They have tried to make IA same as PA, punjabian dee baap kee jaagir.