Zero for DRDO

[ersakthivel]

Why was HAL created ?

and what has been it doing for so many years ?

Filling coffers of Parties and Babus if not assembling very large varieties of aircrafts?

So where is the database and knowldge base?

Why are AN and IL grounded ?

It was HAL design team which created MARUT , which was junked because of no suitable engine tech at that time in the country.

Only after the failure of MARUT it was realized that just experience of building MONKEY stuff under TOT alone would not produce theory based research and Development work and separate research labs were formed. naturally many personnel from HAL design team should have been separated and formed into these research labs .


And these research labs in collabaration with various universities, private sector small eng firms like astra micro , HHV, and eng colleges like IIT created many techs and components that went into the making of radars , missiles like NAG,many components for tejas and many other metallurgy researches for jet engine project headed by GTRE.

So jet engine development got separated in the form of GTRE with research tie ups with academic institutions and various research labs, LRDE was formed and has supplied many radars of it's own design to IA and IAF.


And now done more than 80 percent of the work for tejas mk-1 MMR and finished it with backend israeli signal processor. And it is doing ASEA radar development as well.

After that the design team of HAL was separated and ADA was formed. So tejas which is ADA project is made by HAL people originally not by RIL people.

Since design and development was separated into ADA division HAL has just faithfully produced whatever the russians, brits and french have offered to IAF.

in the chopper section HAL was the lead player for DHURV in collabaration with french they have made a world class product and marketting it.it is also producing IJT for IAf and now got it's own basic trainer ready for IAF.

besides choppers and trainers HAl is doing the work of system integrator and production agency for all the products and subsystems developed by these labs in tie up with the universities.

AFAIK babus take their commisions directly from the foreing arms makers when the deal is struck.You and i need no evidence for this I suppose. they don't need HAl help to cut their commissions and bribes from MNcs.

Why DHURV and JAGs produced in HAl are flying?

 

[agentperry]

aha...reliance. this was only missing out in the entire zigsaw. the arms industry as all know is very mean and country like india with ducking atitude can never survive in it, it will always be on receivers end.

the flaw is in recruitment procedure, how a person with nothing but a hobby of raising kids and maintaing a family status( along with the basic trait of research) in inducted.

you can convert a begger into a politician, you can convert a bull into ox but one cannot produce high quality scientists just like that.

and even if we do so then they are the one are literally cursed for being smart and tortured to the limit that they leave india and settle in any god damn country that allow them to live in peace with their science.
the remaining scum that leaves behind takes up the prestigious offices and do nothing but blood sucking.

its high time that recruitment procedure should so strict that only worthy gets in, worthy of doing job not worthy of plundering and depredation as they are already there.

this might hurt a section of society who have evolved out of mosquitoes but still this country can be saved by this small step

 

[Bhadra]

@ I am talking about spares of Migs, ANs, nad ILs and you are talking of Maruts..

Admit that HAL has let down the aeronotical development in India..




ersakthivel

 

[Bhadra]

the flaw is in recruitment procedure, how a person with nothing but a hobby of raising kids and maintaing a family status( along with the basic trait of research) in inducted.

you can convert a begger into a politician, you can convert a bull into ox but one cannot produce high quality scientists just like that.

and even if we do so then they are the one are literally cursed for being smart and tortured to the limit that they leave india and settle in any god damn country that allow them to live in peace with their science.
the remaining scum that leaves behind takes up the prestigious offices and do nothing but blood sucking.

its high time that recruitment procedure should so strict that only worthy gets in, worthy of doing job not worthy of plundering and depredation as they are already there.

this might hurt a section of society who have evolved out of mosquitoes but still this country can be saved by this small step

But you guys convert people with 50 per cent resrvations into scientists E in no time. Rest all is left out for South Indian Brahmins for entry and then exit to the West ! That is what DRDO is all about.

 

[agentperry]

But you guys convert people with 50 per cent resrvations into scientists E in no time. Rest all is left out for South Indian Brahmins for entry and then exit to the West ! That is what DRDO is all about.

that is what whole india is about. today ntpc cut off list for engineers was out.
cut off for 50 generals was till 246 but for disabled it was 11000.
both gona sit together with one knowing almost everything and other disabled and braindead

 

[ersakthivel]

@ I am talking about spares of Migs, ANs, nad ILs and you are talking of Maruts..

Admit that HAL has let down the aeronotical development in India..



ersakthivel

Aeronautical development responsibility was hived off from HAL to GTRE, ADA, DARE, LRDE by GOI. Then how could you hold HAL responsible for it?

if the tech supplied by the MIg corp to the HAL itself is fault prone how could you expect HAl to produce a better spare?

can you also explain how HAL produces good spares for Dhurv?

 

[Bhadra]

Aeronautical development responsibility was hived off from HAL to GTRE, ADA, DARE, LRDE by GOI. Then how could you hold HAL responsible for it?

if the tech supplied by the MIg corp to the HAL itself is fault prone how could you expect HAl to produce a better spare?

can you also explain how HAL produces good spares for Dhurv?

Aircrafts supplied by Russian (USSR) were not prone to accidents but those assembled by HAL has no reliability - that is what is believed.
And HAL produced parts for years together and we have aircrafts in hangers for want of spares still looking around for them !!

And what Dhruv ?? what percentage of its parts are imported ? HAL is just a nut bolt fixer ! What is the cost of a Dhruva ?

 

[vram]

Well waiting for the fanboys to come in droves to defend their beloved DRDO.

Well nobody can defend the short comings in a organization. But I did not see any kind of proof explained in that article which states that all the projects other than s/w related started by DRDO are a scam . A pretty sweeping statement in my opinion. Then he goes on to give the example of BARAK-NG or BARAK-8 and the LR/MR SAMS.
So here he goes on to say that DRDO is doing the low level back-end work...What the heck is that..
Below I am giving the link related to this contract where I have usually found reliable information and also the relevant snippets for this program

India & Israel's Barak SAM Development Project(s)

The DRDO Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) will be the 'prime developer' for the MR-SAM project, which will reportedly have a Rs 2,300 crore (INR 23 billion, about $445 million at signing in 2009) indigenous component within an estimated Rs 10,075 crore (INR 100.75 billion, about $1.95 billion at signing) total. The 4-5 year project aims to provide India's military with 9 advanced air defense squadrons, each with 2 MR-SAM firing units. Each MR-SAM unit, in turn, would consist of a command and control center, an acquisition radar, a guidance radar, and 3 launchers with 8 missiles each.

SO this clearly shows where the budget stands..so much for the research done for this article.

2011 Barak-8 materials show Indian firms contributing the dual-pulse rocket motor, associated motor arming/safing mechanisms, and the pneumatic actuation system. On the other hand, India Defence reports that IAI and its Israeli partners have agreed to transfer all relevant technologies and manufacturing capabilities to India.

The Barak-8"²s follow-on project involves a land-based system, intended to replace old Russian systems. Most reports place MR-SAM's desired capabilities at 70 km/ 42 mile range effective range, with 360 degree coverage, plus the ability to engage multiple targets simultaneously.

NOW the author goes on to say in this article that

Except in striking a contract for `15,000 crore, DRDO settled for only a work-share arrangement and that too to fabricate the low-value backend of these missile systems, with the Israeli company retaining the intellectual property rights on all the technology so developed

DRDO, on its part, has prospered by creating illusion. Other than in certain areas, such as in writing sophisticated software and devising complex algorithms to drive military systems, DRDO projects are mostly scams.

So the dual pulse rocket motor and arming mechanisms are LOW LEVEL work for the Author??? So much for his contention that DRDO cannot do any other work than software. He is basically contradicting himself in that article...first saying that DRDO knows only s/w and then coming back and saying they are doing only the rocket and arms mech parts...Which as far as I know DOES NOT fall under S/W algorithm.

Also about the TOT for this project. Clearly he has got that wrong again as well.
Note: that our own indigenous project TRISHUL was a failure and the AKASH is only short range. We have to PAY to get some technical know how if we cant develop it...nothing wrong or ashamed to be in that. Even the great USA had to get German engineering for finishing most of thier advanced scientific initiatives in the 50's and 60's..And we all know the chinese way of producing 'Indigenous technology'. I dont find anything at all wrong in importing stuff ...but the important part is to learn how to make it ourselves in the future...

I rest my case. So much for the credibility of this article...

 

[pmaitra]

Well waiting for the fanboys to come in droves to defend their beloved DRDO.

I just need the fanboys to answer one simple question , what is the percentage of imports by HAL for say MIG 21 engine?

The answer is going to surprise the hell out of everybody here.

It is puerile comments like this that trigger an exchange of ad hominems, and the discussion goes out of hand. Grow up and debate in a mature manner.

@sob, I don't know what percentage of MiG-21 engine is imported. You seem to know. Please share with us with a source.

Now, coming to some of the points in the Opening Post:

So criminally negligent has HAL been that in all the years it assembled a variety of MiG-21s, MiG-27s, MiG-29s, and the Jaguar, and the power plants for each of these aircraft at its Koraput factory, it failed to maintain a database. In other words, for all the licence manufacturing it has done over the years, by failing to compile how every component in the aircraft and in the engines does what and how, it has learnt nothing. Had HAL maintained a database of all the items it has put together, the country by now would have had the built-up capability to manufacture the Tejas Mk-I and Mk-II on the run. But this defence public sector unit has reduced itself to an adjunct of supplier companies. That top HAL leadership has not been brought to account on this score and that the Indian taxpayer continues funding such profligacy only reflects the state of things.

Agreed, they should have maintained a database.

DRDO, on its part, has prospered by creating illusion. Other than in certain areas, such as in writing sophisticated software and devising complex algorithms to drive military systems, DRDO projects are mostly scams. Behind every project that's touted for realising "self-sufficiency" lies imported technology in some guise. In fact, it has been so grossly inept in not insisting on total transfer of technology from its partners that foreign defence firms happily strike deals in which Indian monies fund the development of state-of-the-art technology in other countries but get nothing out of it except finished high-cost products. It is not the fault of the supplier firms that DRDO has proved so inattentive, gullible, and plain reckless with public monies. Take for example the advanced medium-range and long-range missile systems supposedly being collaboratively developed with Israel.

Agree with most of the paragraph, especially the antepenultimate sentence. The second sentence is drivel. The last sentence, to put it mildly is vague.

DRDO, on its part, has prospered by creating illusion. Other than in certain areas, such as in writing sophisticated software and devising complex algorithms to drive military systems, DRDO projects are mostly scams. Behind every project that's touted for realising "self-sufficiency" lies imported technology in some guise.

So, a project that has imported components qualifies as a valid reason to make an assertion, "Zero for DRDO?"

What do you say about USMC's LAV-25 or it's imported components?
What do you say about RM8 and RM12 powerplants of Volvo Aero?
What about the SCALP EG missile system?

Moreover, the article purely focuses on the failures, and not on the successes. I am just helping you to see both the sides. You would give a person 0/100 if he fails to answer all the the questions. DRDO has not failed in all its assignments, so that "Zero for DRDO" is an invalid argument.

References:
Detroit Diesel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
LAV-25 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Volvo Aero - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Storm Shadow - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[pmaitra]

Aircrafts supplied by Russian (USSR) were not prone to accidents but those assembled by HAL has no reliability - that is what is believed.
And HAL produced parts for years together and we have aircrafts in hangers for want of spares still looking around for them !!

And what Dhruv ?? what percentage of its parts are imported ? HAL is just a nut bolt fixer ! What is the cost of a Dhruva ?

You are right, USSR supplied MiG-21 are more reliable than those with Indian components.

Regarding MiG-21 engines (Tumansky R-25), most of the accidents are attributed to those with components made in India. India simply does not have the metallurgical capability for make the alloys right. Even single crystal blades, which can be made using investment casting and controlled cooling, is very new to India. India is learning, but the instruments and tools required to do this is expensive.

Many of the parts of the HAL Dhruv are cheaper if imported than made domestically, due to the cost of setting up the facilities. HAL assembles aircraft, and according to you, aircraft assembly involved just fixing nuts and bolts. Maybe, perhaps you know everything that HAL does.

Anyway, why don't you answer the question - what percentage of HAL Dhruv is imported?

 

[pmaitra]

It was HAL design team which created MARUT , which was junked because of no suitable engine tech at that time in the country.

If we bring Kurt Tank into the picture, you'd see, even part of the HAL Design Team is imported. HAL Tejas and NAL Saras are truly the first two Indian designed airframes. NAL has been like a festering sore, with very little to show for success. HAL, on the other hand, has done something.

 

[Bhadra]

You are right, USSR supplied MiG-21 are more reliable than those with Indian components.

Regarding MiG-21 engines (Tumansky R-25), most of the accidents are attributed to those with components made in India. India simply does not have the metallurgical capability for make the alloys right. Even single crystal blades, which can be made using investment casting and controlled cooling, is very new to India. India is learning, but the instruments and tools required to do this is expensive.

Many of the parts of the HAL Dhruv are cheaper if imported than made domestically, due to the cost of setting up the facilities. HAL assembles aircraft, and according to you, aircraft assembly involved just fixing nuts and bolts. Maybe, perhaps you know everything that HAL does.

Anyway, why don't you answer the question - what percentage of HAL Dhruv is imported?

Ah sixty years of learning curve is not small !

about Dhruva - Let defender of the faith defend the faith why me ?? I shall have to google

The writter of the article is Bharat Karnad and not a rifraf ! He has a reputation to keep

 

[pmaitra]

Ah sixty years of learning curve is not small !

about Dhruva - Let defender of the faith defend the faith why me ?? I shall have to google

The writter of the article is Bharat Karnad and not a rifraf ! He has a reputation to keep

Frankly, the mention of the name "Bharat Karnad" has no effect on my opinion of the article. It is hysterical, inaccurate, and subjective.

While I agree that HAL's Koraput facility should have maintained a database, I doubt the challenges faced by GTRE today could have been solved by the information from that database. Some of the major challenges for turbine technology has been related to metallurgy and manufacturing processes. Many of these processes, used today, have only matured in the late 90s. The hope is that India will learn fast.

 

[Yusuf]

Ah sixty years of learning curve is not small !

about Dhruva - Let defender of the faith defend the faith why me ?? I shall have to google

The writter of the article is Bharat Karnad and not a rifraf ! He has a reputation to keep

Well Bharat Karnad some times is fanboyish. I like him though.

 

[ersakthivel]

You are right, USSR supplied MiG-21 are more reliable than those with Indian components.

Regarding MiG-21 engines (Tumansky R-25), most of the accidents are attributed to those with components made in India. India simply does not have the metallurgical capability for make the alloys right. Even single crystal blades, which can be made using investment casting and controlled cooling, is very new to India. India is learning, but the instruments and tools required to do this is expensive.

Many of the parts of the HAL Dhruv are cheaper if imported than made domestically, due to the cost of setting up the facilities. HAL assembles aircraft, and according to you, aircraft assembly involved just fixing nuts and bolts. Maybe, perhaps you know everything that HAL does.

Anyway, why don't you answer the question - what percentage of HAL Dhruv is imported?

Are you sure that russians transferred the single crystal blade tech to HAl in the eighties itself along with purchase of MiG-21?

if you have any links please post, thanks.

 

[ersakthivel]

Ah sixty years of learning curve is not small !

about Dhruva - Let defender of the faith defend the faith why me ?? I shall have to google

The writter of the article is Bharat Karnad and not a rifraf ! He has a reputation to keep

There are many so called Reputed writers in India who don't know a shit about what they write . I have been reading indian newspaper for decades.

Even today I read an article in FRONTLINE quoting unnamed (as usual!!!) senior IAF officers about so many unresolvable glitches in Tejas mk-1 , which has ten times more crap load than article written by "reputed journo" you posted in the start of the thread.


His comments that HAL has not maintained a database of what it has made for Mig-21, 29, 23 and jaguars(incidentally HAL is still making the same parts for all the above fighters with no database !!!!!!, all still flying In IAF) shows how deep he has prepared before writing the article.


And insinuating that lack of database creation by HAL is the reason for delay in Tejas development is even more pathetic.Because it is ADA which is designing the Tejas , not HAl .

And 40 percent of the components made for LCA is made of composite manufacturing tech in line with modern fighters like RAFALE and grippen . So no amount of manufacturing skills that were "lost !!!!" by HAL by not maintaining the " database !!!!" has any effect on Tejas delay.

An excellent technical paper submitted by IAF test pilot about what HAL achieved in dhurv is posted by Kunal biswas in this foum itself. you don't even have to go outside to google

http://livefist.blogspot.in/2013/02/alh-dhruv-truth-first-hand.html?m=1

 

[LurkerBaba]

There are many so called Reputed writers in India who don't know a shit about what they write . I have been reading indian newspaper for decades.

Even today I read an article in FRONTLINE quoting unnamed (as usual!!!) senior IAF officers about so many unresolvable glitches in Tejas mk-1 , which has ten times more crap load than article written by "reputed journo" you posted in the start of the thread.

Bharat Karnad is not some random journalist. I'll take his words over the ramblings of fanboys

Bharat Karnad is a Research Professor in National Security Studies at the Centre for Policy Research, New Delhi.[1] He is the author of India's Nuclear Policy[2] [Praeger, 2008], Nuclear Weapons and Indian Security: The Realist Foundations of Strategy[3] (now in its second edition) [Macmillan India, 2002, 2005] and author-editor of Future Imperilled: India's Security in the 1990s and Beyond [Viking-Penguin India, 1994].[4] He was a Member of the National Security Advisory Board, National Security Council, Government of India,[5] and Member of the Nuclear Doctrine Drafting Group,[6] and formerly Advisor, Defense Expenditure to the Finance Commission, India

Bharat Karnad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[ersakthivel]

Bharat Karnad is not some random journalist. I'll take his words over the ramblings of fanboys



Bharat Karnad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So ask him which set of database was lost by HAL?

How he found about it?

Which official told him the data base was lost?

How is HAL going to maintain IAF fleet of decades old fighter without maintaining any database of production know how, Since HAL is still responsible for spares and support for Mig-21s,23s,29,s and Sukhoi-30 MKI.

Does he also mean HAL has no database for Sukhoi-30 MKI parts which is being currently produced? I don't believe so.

Atleaset the database of Sukhoi along with production know how is current with HAL .So how this could not help Tejas production?

Surely he must have the answers.

 

[Yusuf]

So ask him which set of database was lost by HAL?

How he found about it?

Which official told him the data base was lost?

How is HAL going to maintain IAF fleet of decades old fighter without maintaining any database of production know how, Since HAL is still responsible for spares and support for Mig-21s,23s,29,s and Sukhoi-30 MKI.

Does he also mean HAL has no database for Sukhoi-30 MKI parts which is being currently produced? I don't believe so.

Atleaset the database of Sukhoi along with production know how is current with HAL .So how this could not help Tejas production?

Surely he must have the answers.

You can write to him & Seek answers.

 

[pmaitra]

Are you sure that russians transferred the single crystal blade tech to HAl in the eighties itself along with purchase of MiG-21?

if you have any links please post, thanks.

I have no information whether the Russians transferred that tech to India. Some of the later upgrades of the MiG-21 had Single Crystal blades, possibly adopted after the development of the R-29 engine, but I do not really have a solid source.

Here is a PDF, that will demonstrate the difficulty with developing Single Crystal Blade. There have been incidents where engine flameout happened. Pne reason would be when blades break and shatter, sending debris into the engine, which causes further damage and the engine flames out, often resulting in crash. A conventionally cooled casting will be more brittle and prone to breaking than a single crystal. The reason for adopting single crystal is the generic hardness which increases the reliability of the engines.

[PDF]http://www.tms.org/superalloys/10.7449/1980/Superalloys_1980_205_214.pdf[/PDF]