Your favourite Horsemen aka cavalry

[pmaitra]

I would also like to add into the discussion the Elephant Cavalry, not just from India but also from all over the world like Hannibal's March towards Rome across the Alps.

Perhaps open a new thread on war elephants? I think @Razor wants to discuss horsemen here.

 

[Bornubus]

Marathas and Sikhs had excellent Cavalry, but any reference of Rajputs having excellent Cavalry? They have never won any great battles on the basis of their Cavalry, I might be wrong, so please help me out by correcting it. Thanks in advance.

You are factually wrong in saying rajputs were inferior cavalrymen, yes cavalry wasn't the mettle of rajput during 1000 ~ AD but during mughals,Rajput cavalry was on par with Mughals as they were the integral part of mughal empire,their military and their nobility.

Rajputs took part in central Asian campaign of shah jahan,a rajput Garrison was permanently stationed in Afghanistan, Man Singh was a 7000 hazari mansabdar 2nd highest in mughals empire which means he maintained significant cavalry under his command,he also crushed 5 pashtun tribes after crossing khyber for which the flag of kachwaha changed into panchranga.

Later combined mughals n rajput army defeated shivaji and forced him sign treaty of purandar.

Zorawar Singh jamwal led his army to tibet ,it was however a stalemate.

Even prithviraj had a strong cavalry,though superior cavalry of turk was one of the reason of their victory it wasn't the reason alone there were several reasons of rajput defeat.

 

[rohit.gr77]

You are factually wrong in saying rajputs were inferior cavalrymen, yes cavalry wasn't the mettle of rajput during 1000 ~ AD but during mughals,Rajput cavalry was on par with Mughals as they were the integral part of mughal empire,their military and their nobility.

Rajputs took part in central Asian campaign of shah jahan,a rajput Garrison was permanently stationed in Afghanistan, Man Singh was a 7000 hazari mansabdar 2nd highest in mughals empire which means he maintained significant cavalry under his command,he also crushed 5 pashtun tribes after crossing khyber for which the flag of kachwaha changed into panchranga.

Later combined mughals n rajput army defeated shivaji and forced him sign treaty of purandar.

Zorawar Singh jamwal led his army to tibet ,it was however a stalemate.

Even prithviraj had a strong cavalry,though superior cavalry of turk was one of the reason of their victory it wasn't the reason alone there were several reasons of rajput defeat.

Treaty of Purandar was due the defeat Marathas suffered during the siege of Purandar. The seige of Purandar was successful because of their Artillery, not Cavalry.
During the Marathas expansion, at the time of Peshwas, the Rajputs didn't offer any resistance to the Maratha Cavalry.

 

[Cadian]

Horse Guard in the Kremlin - mill, stream and track.

 

[asingh10]

Mongols !


BTW good movie on Khan's early life & struggles.

 

[Razor]

Horse Guard in the Kremlin - mill, stream and track.

About the Russian-circassian wars, Russian-caucasian wars, Russian-Persian wars etc: How good were the horsemen of the chechen, cherkess, avar and so on.
Well, they fought a war against russian empire for almost a century, so I'm guessing pretty effective, but any info on that?

 

[pmaitra]

About the Russian-circassian wars, Russian-caucasian wars, Russian-Persian wars etc: How good were the horsemen of the chechen, cherkess, avar and so on.
Well, they fought a war against russian empire for almost a century, so I'm guessing pretty effective, but any info on that?

The Circassians were kicked out of South Russia, i.e. the regions around Sochi.

Then they settled in what today is Turkey.

Some of them moved to the Balkans, and fought against the Serbs during the breakup of Yugoslavia.

They have preserved their antipathy for the Slavs for centuries.

Horses did play a major role in the Russo-Circassian Wars. How good they were, I'd let @Cadian elaborate.

 

[Razor]

The Circassians were kicked out of South Russia, i.e. the regions around Sochi.

Then they settled in what today is Turkey.

Some of them moved to the Balkans, and fought against the Serbs during the breakup of Yugoslavia.

They have preserved their antipathy for the Slavs for centuries.

Horses did play a major role in the Russo-Circassian Wars. How good they were, I'd let @Cadian elaborate.

I don't think all of them settled in Turkey, or did they?
Many of them would have assimilated into ethnic russians too.

Also I think present day "definition" of cherkess is different from actual circassians of the past because in some places russians grouped together several ethnic groups into a single name.

 

[pmaitra]

I don't think all of them settled in Turkey, or did they?
Many of them would have assimilated into ethnic russians too.

Also I think present day "definition" of cherkess is different from actual circassians of the past because in some places russians grouped together several ethnic groups into a single name.

No, not all of them settled in Turkey. Some certainly assimilated, but most were evicted.

Cherkassia is probably derived from Circassia, and Balkaria is probably derived from Bulgaria, but I am not so sure, and these people might not necessarily be the same people. BTW, it is possible that Cherkassia is derived from Karachay, which is nothing but Kara-Chai, which means Black River, like our Kara-Koram mountains, which means black rock. Kara means black, from which comes the Hindi world Kala. This has Turkic origins. The other word is Krishna, which is related to Cherno, which in Russian means black. This likely has Proto-Indo-European origin.

 

[pmaitra]

@Razor, I added some more stuff in that post. Sorry for the edit.

 

[Razor]

No, not all of them settled in Turkey. Some certainly assimilated, but most were evicted.

Cherkassia is probably derived from Circassia, and Balkaria is probably derived from Bulgaria, but I am not so sure, and these people might not necessarily be the same people. BTW, it is possible that Cherkassia is derived from Karachay, which is nothing but Kara-Chai, which means Black River, like our Kara-Koram mountains, which means black rock. Kara means black, from which comes the Hindi world Kala. This has Turkic origins. The other word is Krishna, which is related to Cherno, which in Russian means black. This likely has Proto-Indo-European origin.

I think Cherkess itlsef is turkic and they call themselves adyghe, just like chechens call themselves noche or vainakh or something. Rest of the stuff I agree.

EDIT @pmaitra : Apparently it is from greek and not from turkic. Don't know how accurate but check this:

The Circassians refer to themselves as Adyghe (also transliterated as Adyga, Adyge, Adygei, Adyghe, Attéghéi). The name is believed to derive from atté "height" to signify a mountaineer or a highlander, and ghéi "sea", signifying "a people dwelling and inhabiting a mountainous country near the sea coast", or "between two seas".[27][28]

The exonym Circassians (ser-KASS-ee-uhnz) is occasionally applied to Adyghe and Abaza from the North Caucasus.[29] The name Circassian represents a Latinisation of Siraces, the Greek name for the region, called Shirkess by Khazars & later Cherkess, the Turkic name for the Adyghe, and originated in the 15th century with medieval Genoese merchants and travellers to Circassia.[29][30]

The Turkic peoples[31] and Russians call the Adyghe Cherkess,.[32] Folk etymology usually explains the name Cherkess as "warrior cutter" or "soldier cutter", from the Turkic words çeri (soldier) and kesmek (to cut), so that Cherkess would mean "soldier-cutter".[citation needed]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassians

 

[Cadian]

About the Russian-circassian wars, Russian-caucasian wars, Russian-Persian wars etc: How good were the horsemen of the chechen, cherkess, avar and so on.
Well, they fought a war against russian empire for almost a century, so I'm guessing pretty effective, but any info on that?

These tribal societies had a tradition of looting stuff and kidnapping people for ransom. Even nowdays, every Chechen house has a place were a prisoner could be held.

When Russia came to the Caucasus, it took very long and lots of troops time to teach them, that robbing caravans and burning neighbor villages is a bad thing.

Also, in the South Caucasus Russian troops fought with Turkey and Iran and the new conquered territories were appended to a new state called Georgia, which was supposed to be a Russian proxy in the region.

in general, Highlanders are always troublesome.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksey_Petrovich_Yermolov

 

[pmaitra]

These tribal societies had a tradition of looting stuff and kidnapping people for ransom. Even nowdays, every Chechen house has a place were a prisoner could be held.

When Russia came to the Caucasus, it took very long and lots of troops time to teach them, that robbing caravans and burning neighbor villages is a bad thing.

Also, in the South Caucasus Russian troops fought with Turkey and Iran and the new conquered territories were appended to a new state called Georgia, which was supposed to be a Russian proxy in the region.

in general, Highlanders are always troublesome.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksey_Petrovich_Yermolov

Yes, kidnapping is part of the tradition amongst some of the Caucasian peoples.

Scene from movie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping,_Caucasian_Style

 

[Razor]

1. These tribal societies had a tradition of looting stuff and kidnapping people for ransom. Even nowdays, every Chechen house has a place were a prisoner could be held.

2.When Russia came to the Caucasus, it took very long and lots of troops time to teach them, that robbing caravans and burning neighbor villages is a bad thing.

Also, in the South Caucasus Russian troops fought with Turkey and Iran and the new conquered territories were appended to a new state called Georgia, which was supposed to be a Russian proxy in the region.

in general, Highlanders are always troublesome.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksey_Petrovich_Yermolov

1. So that explains why there are almost no russians in the caucasus?

2. To be fair in this case, the caucasians are under russian rule and have been in war with them for over a century. Under this circumstance, Russia does not hold a doctorate in moral dogma to teach the caucasians anything.
And it is exactly this "troublesome"-ness that has prevented caucasian cultures from being completely russified. The non-troublesome finno-ugrics have got russified.

In any case, I never asked about all this, you just started saying all this because may be you want to get something out.

I asked about the horses.

Btw, which movie?

 

[pmaitra]

Btw, which movie?

Khuda Gawah?

Just kidding. The video is very similar to Khuda Gawah. :bounce:

 

[Cadian]

1. So that explains why there are almost no russians in the caucasus?

2. To be fair in this case, the caucasians are under russian rule and have been in war with them for over a century. Under this circumstance, Russia does not hold a doctorate in moral dogma to teach the caucasians anything.
And it is exactly this "troublesome"-ness that has prevented caucasian cultures from being completely russified. The non-troublesome finno-ugrics have got russified.

In any case, I never asked about all this, you just started saying all this because may be you want to get something out.

I asked about the horses.

Btw, which movie?

The capital of Chechnya, the city of Grozny, was a Russian city founded by Cossaks as a fortress. In 1991 about 300 000 Russian people lived there. Now there is hardly 2 000. Yes, that isn't very comfortable for a Russian man to live there. However, in other regions of Northern Caucasus there is a significant quantity of ethnic Russians, Chechnya itself is not very big.

By "troublesome" I have meant only what I said. That is not equivalent of "not yet russified". Russia protects culture and language of almost all ethnic minorities on it's territory, 40 minorities' languages have official status.

I don't recognize the movie, but the song is well-known. It was written by Cossaks specially for trolling Chechens.


Here is an approx. translation:
http://lyricstranslate.com/ru/ойся-ты-ойся-oysya-you-oysya.html

 

[Tactical Frog]

Funny stuff .. Napoleon ' s favourite horse is in urgent need of restoration . Napoleon was a poor rider by all accounts, but he had very good cavalry under his orders.
The horse ( a gift of Sultan Selim III, in 1802) survived to his master !
You can see it ( stuffed ) in Paris.

 

[OrangeFlorian]

I think Cherkess itlsef is turkic and they call themselves adyghe, just like chechens call themselves noche or vainakh or something. Rest of the stuff I agree.

EDIT @pmaitra : Apparently it is from greek and not from turkic. Don't know how accurate but check this:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassians

No circassians are More closely related to Persians by blood

 

[Sandeep Bajwa]

Hari Singh Nalwa's Sher-e-Dil Rajaman has to be the best cavalry in long time as he was able to plug in the Khyber pass and no further attacks have come into India overtly through Khyber Pass. Only covert islamists like Jinnah have been successful to divide India!

Sher-e-Dil was 5000 horses and men commanded by Marshall Hari Singh Nalwa. The role of Cavalry in early 1800s was to strike fast, surprise and capture any small forts and territory outside of the large defended area., wait for the infantry. and then support infantry! Hari Singh was always successful in these missions!

 

[Sandeep Bajwa]

http://www.sikh-history.com/sikhhist/events/battle_of_naushera.html