Will Washington Forment War Between China And India?

[mattster]

The US involvement in Latin and Central America was to combat Soviet and Leftist government by propping up right-wing dictators and military governments. Sure it was a ruthless strategy which had a lot of opponents even in the US but this was the Cold war period.

The problems with some Indians on this forum(the Che Guevara types) is that their view of these leftist governments is very romanticized. The Leftists movements were equally as brutal as the right-wing dictators like Pinochet in many parts of Latin America. There wasnt much "Che" spirit in many of the leftist regimes.

There is tendency for people to assign too much credit to the US for everything that goes wrong with any country alligned with the US. There are plenty of US allies that are doing great......but the US gets no credit for that.
South Korea is a perfect example - in many ways you could even argue that South Korean are a US puppet. There are still US marines based in Korea today. They US weapons almost exclusively.

But hey......that hasnt prevented the South Korean from becoming a world-class powerhouse by itself. Not too shabby for a puppet !!

 

[asianobserve]

Even countries already doing great like Singapore are willing to be US "puppets." Though no one would seriously entertain the thought that Singapore will suffer from its closer alliance with Uncle Sam...

 

[civfanatic]

So this is the fault of the US? If this is your line of reasoning then the converse is true in its other puppets, like Japan and SK. The spectacular economic developments of these countries can be attributed "directly" to US medlings in their domestic affairs?

Please learn how to use the quote feature.

Yes, the U.S. is at fault for the tremendous economic inequality in Chile, because this economic inequality is the direct result of economic policies of Pinochet, who was a US-backed fascist dictator. In fact, Chile still has the same constitution from 1980 (under Pinochet's regime), although it now supposedly has "free elections".

I think your assessment is a little too adventuristic. I always believe that the fate of each country is ultimately the product of its internal decisions, programs and culture, but all internal. Of course, I agree that it was wrong in the first place for the US to control these countries (it should have left them to wallow in their own miseries). But ultimately for me, the US may provide the background stability, or confusion (in the case of Chile and the rest of the desperados Latinos), which nations can take advantage of or perpetually lament over (escapism), but ultimately, if the country itself and its people are determined enough they will progress no matter who's in their doorstep.

Remember that the US bomb Japan almost into oblivion, then puppet controlled its politics and institutions, but somehow the Japanese progressed. Actually the experience of Chile is puny compared to the hardships that the Japanese encountered immediately after the war. The same thing with the South Koreans. The US controlled this other half of the Koreas and somehow despite this very OVERT control it progressed spectacularly! All the collective experiences of these "victim" Latin American countries are nothing compared to the hardships encountered by this two Asian success stories. Yet some people continue to point out to the world the bloated blame of the US in the failures of these countries... The real problem I think in these countries are cultural, maybe owing to their very strict Catholic backgrounds. The people there were too lazy (and resigned to their Almighty - "Blessed are the poor for they shall inherit the Kingdom of God") to work for their personal progress. The leftists on the other hand continue to banner these "oppressed" countries as a sign of American devilism... I guess this is where most Asian countries especially in SE and E Asia excel at, taking advantage of adversities (not cry babies). That's why they're successful.

You're kidding right? You're going to brand one-and-a-half continent as "lazy" as use that to justify their economic backwardness? Have you even been to Latin America?

Now that I know what I'm dealing with, I can safely leave this discussion.

 

[civfanatic]

The US involvement in Latin and Central America was to combat Soviet and Leftist government by propping up right-wing dictators and military governments. Sure it was a ruthless strategy which had a lot of opponents even in the US but this was the Cold war period.

Have you witnessed the victims of this policy?

The problems with some Indians on this forum(the Che Guevara types) is that their view of these leftist governments is very romanticized. The Leftists movements were equally as brutal as the right-wing dictators like Pinochet in many parts of Latin America. There wasnt much "Che" spirit in many of the leftist regimes.

Sure, there were plenty of leftist regimes who abandoned their values (or never had them in the first place) and oppressed their people as much or more than the governments that they replaced. Cambodia's Khmer Rouge regime is probably the most infamous example.

But in the context of Latin America in particular, most leftist movements not only had the support of the people, but maintained these values. This was because Latin America suffered from U.S. policies more than any other place on Earth, and virtually every Latin American leader was a U.S.-backed dictator, or a U.S. puppet elected through a sham election. Fidel Castro's Cuba is the best example of an enduring Latin American state that has remained independent of U.S. despite being just 90 miles from Miami. Jacobo Arbenz in Guatemala and Salvador Allende in Chile both showed great promise, but unfortunately both were overthrown in CIA-backed coups. Today, we have Evo Morales in Bolivia and Hugo Chavez in Venezuela, both of whom were democratically elected, but it's too early to tell if either of them will benefit their country in the long-term.

There is tendency for people to assign too much credit to the US for everything that goes wrong with any country alligned with the US. There are plenty of US allies that are doing great......but the US gets no credit for that.
South Korea is a perfect example - in many ways you could even argue that South Korean are a US puppet. There are still US marines based in Korea today. They US weapons almost exclusively.
But hey......that hasnt prevented the South Korean from becoming a world-class powerhouse by itself. Not too shabby for a puppet !!

South Korea is a world-class powerhouse?

Being a U.S. puppet is great if you have no geopolitical ambitions yourself. Unfortunately, that is not the case of India. I'm sure people who are ashamed to be Indians and have adopted U.S. citizenship, as yourself, would like nothing more than a Westernized, "civilized" India, where all Indians are basically copies of Americans with darker skin, but unfortunately (for you) that is not the desire of most Indians. India has its own ambitions, and it will reach its rightful place in the world with no one's mercy.

There is a reason why Russia has far more geopolitical clout than Japan, despite the fact that Japan's economy is five times as large as Russia's.

 

[mattster]

" Being a U.S. puppet is great if you have no geopolitical ambitions yourself. Unfortunately, that is not the case of India. I'm sure people who are ashamed to be Indians and have adopted U.S. citizenship, as yourself, would like nothing more than a Westernized, "civilized" India, where all Indians are basically copies of Americans with darker skin, but unfortunately (for you) that is not the desire of most Indians"


First of all I was never an Indian citizen at any time in my life. The rest of my family is but I was not born in India.
Don't make grandiose idiotic statements about people who you know nothing about. Where or not India decides to be a US ally or stay neutral or whatever is up to Indians.

My point was that despite what some folks on this website think about the US, the leftist regimes all over the world are for most part basket cases. Either they are brutal regimes that massacred millions like Cambodia, north Korea, Stalin's russia or they literally grind their countries into the ground. The only successful socialist models are those that have completely abandoned it for a capitalist model. By contrast many US allies have done extremely well while others like philipines have not.

All of which goes to prove that what happens to a country is not so much about who it is allied to but about the culture and ability of the people itself to move ahead. The notion that the hidden hand of the US is controlling everything is just a plain
Dumb idea.

 

[Tianshan]

There is a reason why Russia has far more geopolitical clout than Japan, despite the fact that Japan's economy is five times as large as Russia's.

yes, Russia is many time more powerful than Japan, despite smaller economy. enormous influence.

 

[amitkriit]

" Being a U.S. puppet is great if you have no geopolitical ambitions yourself. Unfortunately, that is not the case of India. I'm sure people who are ashamed to be Indians and have adopted U.S. citizenship, as yourself, would like nothing more than a Westernized, "civilized" India, where all Indians are basically copies of Americans with darker skin, but unfortunately (for you) that is not the desire of most Indians"


First of all I was never an Indian citizen at any time in my life. The rest of my family is but I was not born in India.
Don't make grandiose idiotic statements about people who you know nothing about. Where or not India decides to be a US ally or stay neutral or whatever is up to Indians.

My point was that despite what some folks on this website think about the US, the leftist regimes all over the world are for most part basket cases. Either they are brutal regimes that massacred millions like Cambodia, north Korea, Stalin's russia or they literally grind their countries into the ground. The only successful socialist models are those that have completely abandoned it for a capitalist model. By contrast many US allies have done extremely well while others like philipines have not.

All of which goes to prove that what happens to a country is not so much about who it is allied to but about the culture and ability of the people itself to move ahead. The notion that the hidden hand of the US is controlling everything is just a plain
Dumb idea.

Nobody is complaining about the "US hidden hand", that's a product of your imagination. India is too big to become an "Strategic Ally" of USA, because strategic alliance with USA means giving up your ambitions to serve USA's interest.

You are right about the culture and ability of people to move ahead, no nation in this world is more resilient than India, we are capable of taking care of ourselves and our people. There is not much USA can offer to us when the whole world is full of possibilities for us. We want to keep our options wide open, and our heads high. Why stop at one or two "good friends" when there are hundreds ready to shake hands with us, including the likes of Iran.

 

[civfanatic]

First of all I was never an Indian citizen at any time in my life.

Thank you for clarifying that. I am content that your idiotic statements are coming from the mouth of a Yankee and not a fellow Indian. That really put my mind to rest, thank you.

My point was that despite what some folks on this website think about the US, the leftist regimes all over the world are for most part basket cases. Either they are brutal regimes that massacred millions like Cambodia, north Korea, Stalin's russia or they literally grind their countries into the ground. The only successful socialist models are those that have completely abandoned it for a capitalist model. By contrast many US allies have done extremely well while others like philipines have not.

There is no doubt that capitalism, by nature, is a more productive economic system than socialism. For countries with independent political systems, like India, capitalism can be safely pursued without compromising national sovereignty.

However, capitalism can also be a double-edged sword, especially for smaller countries like those in Latin America who are under the economic, political, and social influence of a much larger power, the United States. In this context, independent-minded socialism is the best path, which is why Cuba has a better standard of living than most of the "capitalist", "democratic" states of the Caribbean/Latin America.

Cuba is probably the only truly free country in Latin America, in the sense that its political, economic, and social scene is completely free of Yankee influence.

All of which goes to prove that what happens to a country is not so much about who it is allied to but about the culture and ability of the people itself to move ahead. The notion that the hidden hand of the US is controlling everything is just a plain
Dumb idea.

In Latin America in particular, this "hidden hand" is not so hidden and is quite apparent. In India, this "hidden hand" does not exist because India, despite being a poor country, is still an independent country.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

This guy is speaking American English.

Yankee English is gramatically incorrect, but I prefer it over British English, because the British/Aussie accent makes my ears hurt.

Also, by "Washington", he means the U.S. Govt in general (as in "Washington D.C.") not the person.

Is that what it is!!! I thought i was getting Parkinsons disease which made me forget all my spellings!!! The Firefox spell check always marks my words in red and i knew they where wrong!! How do i change it to british dictionary?

 

[mattster]

"Cuba has a better standard of living" than most Latin American countries ??

Wow....what a profound statement !!

Whatever it is you are smoking must be awfully good ?? Are they Cuban cigar ??
and when was the last time you talked to a Cuban or met anyone or visited Cuba ??

Well, enough said.....I have nothing more to add.
Enjoy your Cuban cigar, buddy.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

"Cuba has a better standard of living" than most Latin American countries ??

Wow....what a profound statement !!

Whatever it is you are smoking must be awfully good ?? Are they Cuban cigar ??
and when was the last time you talked to a Cuban or met anyone or visited Cuba ??

Well, enough said.....I have nothing more to add.
Enjoy your Cuban cigar, buddy.

Well Cuba has Universal health care doesn't it? I think Cuba has done pretty well even under the shadow of US pressure and sanctions, that to after the Soviet collapse and the suspension of aid from USSR. I think USA itself massacred tens of thousands of Native American Indians to establish the United states and to point fingers at others for the same behavior is sort of hypocritical.

However that said, I really like the US and what it stands for(mostly), I like the fact that its an open country that allows some free debate, its does not discriminate constitutionally and the list is long to why i can love the US, even over any other Nation on the planet but i also think sadly because of its collaboration with the British today the US stands more for money and hypocrisy than for democracy, be it when it supports Saudis or Pakistan over India, or China over India, or rewarding the hegemony of China with business instead of sanctions like on North Korea.

 

[civfanatic]

and when was the last time you talked to a Cuban or met anyone or visited Cuba ??

I visited Cuba in 1998. My father was working in a hospital in Jamaica at the time (we had lots of Cuban doctors there), and we travelled to Santiago de Cuba at one point. Even though that was shortly after the collapse of the Socialist Bloc, and Cuba's external trade suffered severely, what I saw there compared favourably to most other Carribean islands, such as Haiti and Jamaica.

My experiences in Cuba and the Caribbean are what inspired me to learn Spanish.

Well, enough said.....I have nothing more to add.

You never knew what you were talking about.

Enjoy pretending to be American.

 

[mattster]

Haiti........give me a freaking break !!

You spent time in Caribbean, and it did not ever occur to you even once that Haiti is the most f*cked place in all of the Americas(North, South, and Central America) and this was before the earthquake. God only knows what a mess it is today.

If you are comparing Cuba to places like Haiti or the Dominican Republic or Jamaica.....then I wholly agree that Cuba is far better off. But Geez man.......comparing to Haiti is like comparing to Zimbabwe.

 

[civfanatic]

Well Cuba has Universal health care doesn't it? I think Cuba has done pretty well even under the shadow of US pressure and sanctions, that to after the Soviet collapse and the suspension of aid from USSR. I think USA itself massacred tens of thousands of Native American Indians to establish the United states and to point fingers at others for the same behavior is sort of hypocritical.

Cuba has done extraordinarily well given the tremendous economic and political pressure applied onto it by the U.S.

However that said, I really like the US and what it stands for(mostly), I like the fact that its an open country that allows some free debate, its does not discriminate constitutionally and the list is long to why i can love the US, even over any other Nation on the planet but i also think sadly because of its collaboration with the British today the US stands more for money and hypocrisy than for democracy, be it when it supports Saudis or Pakistan over India, or China over India, or rewarding the hegemony of China with business instead of sanctions like on North Korea.

I agree with your statement.

There are exactly two times in history where I support America and its ideals. The first was during the American Revolution (1776-83), which was a conflict against monarchy and tyranny, and WWII, which was a universal conflict against fascism.

But unfortunately, even those two times in history where America shined were marred by hypocrisy. Thomas Jefferson, who wrote the words "All men are created equal", was himself a slaveowner, along with many other of America's Founding Fathers. America's "democracy" was at first highly motivated by Anglo-Saxon ideas of racial superiority. Until the conclusion of the Civil War, only white males were allowed to vote, and Native American land was confiscated because of their supposed "inferiority".

And in WWII, over 100,000 Japanese Americans in California and the East Coast were confined to concentration camps without basic necessities of life. And everyone knows about the use of atomic weapons over Japan, which resulted in countless civilian casualties.

But being the world's sole superpower gives you certain priveliges, and one of those priveliges is to accuse other countries of "crimes against humanity" without ever looking in the mirror.

 

[civfanatic]

Haiti........give me a freaking break !!

You spent time in Caribbean, and it did not ever occur to you even once that Haiti is the most f*cked place in all of the Americas(North, South, and Central America) and this was before the earthquake. God only knows what a mess it is today.

If you are comparing Cuba to places like Haiti or the Dominican Republic or Jamaica.....then I wholly agree that Cuba is far better off. But Geez man.......comparing to Haiti is like comparing to Zimbabwe.

In the 1950s, Cuba was even more f*cked up than Haiti.

Can you explain to me why Cuba is doing better than so many other countries in the region?

 

[mattster]

If you want to compare Cuba's growth and development , then compare it to countries like Costa Rica, Taiwan, Singapore, etc. Dont compare it to basket case countries like Haiti. Forget Jamaica, Barbabos and all those small dinky islands.

But the bigger point is this - While Castro's Cuba may have been a model of socialism in the seventies and eighties - that model was built of massive Soviet aid. Their vaunted nationalized health-care system(which is good) was funded by soviet aid. The US embargo certainly hurts Cuba but even if the US embargo was not there - investors from the US and Canada would not have been rushing into Castro's Cuba. Neither are the Europeans or Japanese or their Chinese.

If you compare Cuba to Costa Rica - you will see 2 different systems and what Costa Rica has done for its people versus Cuba.
Costa Rica did not get an significant US aid despite being an ally. They dont need it. They have done quite well by themselves.

Cubans may claim that they stood up to Uncle Sam and yes they did. But most Cubans are struggling to get by. What good is that boast - when you are saddled with a bankrupt ideology and you are struggling to exist ?

I know you dont agree with me, and thats fine. But for me, realities on the ground trump ideology.

BTW: I am proud to be an American of Malayalee origin. There is no pretending. This is one of the few places on the planet where you will be accepted for what you are. Not who you are or who your father is or who your parents know.
After having been raised in Malaysia - you will never catch me apologizing for being an American, even if I dont support everything the US does.

 

[roma]

"xxx you would know that the nation of Pakistan was a creation of the West, and that the West was not willing to abandon its creation by many means xxx"

as member asianobserve didnt use the quote facility , im not sure whom im quoting here - will the original stand up please ?

just wanted to make a simple correction of perception .: that pakistan was a creation of the west ??

i wonder how many here especially the india and pakistan members would accept that ... the islamization of previously hind or parsee communities in the north west of "india " took place many centuries before the first european even set foot in india and the demand by the muslims of the northwest of india was forceful especially after MA Jinnah and his demands became prominent . Both the british and hindu or rather non-muslim india had to give in to the reality of the partition due to demand and not due to some conceptual plan of anyone from the "West" .... comments from indians and pakistanis most welcome .

 

[asianobserve]

For those who love to point to Cuba's "glimmering" example of Communist success story better look closely at the news. Havn't you heard of the boat people? The water rationing? dilapidated infra? Unemployed? Or maybe you should visit Cuba themselves. If you think having a good healthcare is all it takes to be a successful country then its easy to be a success story then. Just dump all other concerns and focus on health! Never mind if people does not have money in their pockets or simple freedoms like to set up a business to carry out ones potentially productive idea... Those whop still insists on Cuba being a success then I'm not surprised anymore that they're US haters...

 

[asianobserve]

as member asianobserve didnt use the quote facility , im not sure whom im quoting here - will the original stand up please ?

I didn't make that quote. Pakistan a creation of the West? How about aliens are being kept at Area 51?

 

[asianobserve]

For those who love to point to Cuba's "glimmering" example of Communist success story better look closely at the news. Havn't you heard of the boat people? The water rationing? dilapidated infra? Unemployed? Or maybe you should visit Cuba themselves. If you think having a good healthcare is all it takes to be a successful country then its easy to be a success story then. Just dump all other concerns and focus on health! Never mind if people does not have money in their pockets or simple freedoms like to set up a business to carry out ones potentially productive idea... Those whop still insists on Cuba being a success then I'm not surprised anymore that they're US haters...

Err: "xxx visit Cuba yourselves."