Will Greece bring down the European Union (EU) ?

Armand2REP

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Like I said, its a vicious circle. The govt can't magically create employment with the bailout money if it can't give it back to the people in terms of a stimulus injection. And UK, France and Germany are praying that the trillion dollar bailout doesn't get used so they don't get dragged down into it. UK, France and Germany are doomed if they lend, doomed if they don't. Europe is crumbling, EURO will die soon, and EU as a power will collapse.
Like I said, shadow economies dominate PIGS. Once they reform the tax system to tap into it the problem is resolved 70%, austerity measures cover another 20%. Growth is only 10% of the equation. They have the most of the money, they just need to collect it. France is extatic over this bailout measure, now instead of having $1 trillion in highly exposed debt, it is backed by all of the EU and US taxpayers. France collects either way and we get rich.
 

AkhandBharat

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Like I said, shadow economies dominate PIGS. Once they reform the tax system to tap into it the problem is resolved 70%, austerity measures cover another 20%. Growth is only 10% of the equation. They have the most of the money, they just need to collect it. France is extatic over this bailout measure, now instead of having $1 trillion in highly exposed debt, it is backed by all of the EU and US taxpayers. France collects either way and we get rich.
You get rich with what? Borrowing money and lending it? Wake the heck up! You are not too far from being insolvent.

Rank Country - Entity External debt
(millions US$) Date of information External debt
per capita (US$) Date of population* External debt (% of GDP)
1 United States[4] $13,399,859 6/30/2009 $43,646 30-July-09 94%
2 United Kingdom[5] $9,191,104 12/22/2009 $150,673 November 2009 365.44%
3 Germany $5,208,000 6/30/2009 $63,350 30-Jun-07 185.2%
4 France $5,021,000 6/30/2009 $76,718 1 January 2010 227.35%
5 Netherlands $3,733,000 2/16/2010 $223,319 2009 est. 467.21%
6 Spain $2,478,000 9/30/2008 $49,619 30 June 2007 est. 150.65%
7 Luxembourg $1,994,000 6/30/2009 $3,970,514 2010 est. 4973.68%
8 Ireland $1,841,000 6/30/2007 $448,032 30-Jun-08 960.86%
9 Japan $1,492,000 6/30/2007 $4,528 30-Jun-07 34.93%
10 Switzerland $1,340,000 6/30/2007 $174,520 30-Jun-07 441.95%
11 Belgium $1,313,000 6/30/2007 $126,202 30-Jun-07 348.74%
12 Italy $1,060,000 2008(est.) $18,235 30-Jun-08 58.21%
13 Canada $962,632 01/12/2010 $23,325 01-Jul-09 59.69%
14 Australia $826,400 12/31/2007 $38,798 30-Jun-07 106.91%
15 Austria $752,500 6/30/2007 $90,289 30-Jun-07 233.70%
16 Sweden $598,200 6/30/2006 $65,048 30-Jun-06 176.72%
17 Hong Kong $588,000 2007 $84,445 2007 est. 200.48%
18 Greece $535,920 09/31/2009 $47,401 30-Sep-09 153%
19 Denmark $492,600 6/30/2007 $89,853 30-Jun-07 242.30%
20 Norway $469,100 6/30/2007 $98,530 30-Jun-07 190.23%
21 Portugal $461,200 12/31/2007 $43,196 30-Jun-07 188.63%
 

Armand2REP

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You get rich with what? Borrowing money and lending it? Wake the heck up! You are not too far from being insolvent.
How do you think banks make so much money? By lending of course. France is Europe's largest lender, now the debts are guaranteed by the largest economies in the world. Just as US banks made record profits off their bailouts, so will ours. Truly a beautiful thing. =heheh
 

plugwater

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Greece need to pull out of the Euro, restore the Greek drachma, and devalue. Seems to me it would be better for both euro and Greece.
 

thakur_ritesh

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I wonder why is the external debt taken as a measure of gdp when in no way is the complete gdp an earning for any government, shouldn't the external debt be calculated against the forex reserves, exports-imports if its favorable and the annual budgetary allocations (excluding debt raised to finance this), which sound the ways of financing all these debts.

Or is it assumed the government will confiscate all the holdings and produces of a country at the time of emergency?

Would be great if someone could help explain this, thanks.
 

Armand2REP

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I wonder why is the external debt taken as a measure of gdp when in no way is the complete gdp an earning for any government, shouldn't the external debt be calculated against the forex reserves, exports-imports if its favorable and the annual budgetary allocations (excluding debt raised to finance this), which sound the ways of financing all these debts.

Or is it assumed the government will confiscate all the holdings and produces of a country at the time of emergency? Why

Would be great if someone could help explain this, thanks.
The external debt has nothing to do with this issue. That includes public and private debt when we are only talking about public. Why Akhand brought it up is a mystery. Private debt is a matter for individual companies and households to deal with.
 

ajtr

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Whither Europe (and NATO)?


I'm beginning to think that what's happening in Europe these days is really critical, in the sense that it will have large and lasting ramifications no matter how it turns out. Europeans were feeling their oats a few years back, and starting to talk in lofty terms about the strength of their common currency, their unique ideas about "civilian power," and their plans for defense integration and a common foreign and security policy. The EU was expanding, major neighbors like Turkey were knocking on the door, and the United States was shooting itself in the foot in Iraq and elsewhere.

Today, however, Europe's prospects don't look quite so bright. European officials have finally gotten around to assembling a rescue package for Greece (remember when a trillion dollars was a lot of money?) and this belated action seems to have quieted markets for awhile. But it remains to be seen if Europe's problem children (Greece, Portugal, Spain, Ireland) will be able to raise taxes and cut budgets enough to make themselves solvent again. If not, then the rescue package will just have kicked the problem down the road, and we will face a renewed crisis a year or two from now. And if that happens, don't expect another bailout.

In the past, Euro-optimists like Princeton's Andrew Moravcsik have argued that crises like this just make Europe stronger, by forcing it to get its house in order and strengthen the relevant supra-national institutions. Maybe, but I'd be more convinced if my friend Andy hadn't described Europe as being "stronger than ever" last August (i.e., well before this latest crisis hit). Meanwhile, voters in Germany just delivered a sharp rebuke to Chancellor Angela Merkel and the Christian Democrats, sending a clear message that their support for costly bailout packages is not infinite.

The larger problem is longer-term. Europe's population is declining and aging, which means that a smaller number of workers will have to pay for welfare benefits for an ever-growing number of retirees. Cutting benefits will be politically difficult, raising taxes is always hard, and immigration won't bring in many of the skilled and highly productive workers that Europe needs. The latter step also creates cultural frictions. Maybe the well-off countries can jettison Greece et al from the Eurozone (thoug not the EU), but to do this would be to enshrine inequality within the EU itself and would be a major step backward. No doubt Europe will find a way to muddle through, but austerity will be the watchword for some time to come.

In any case, whether Europe grows closer together or begins to spin apart, it's going to carry a lot less weight in world affairs in the next few decades. Its population is shrinking and aging, its military power is increasingly hollow, and it's going to be short on money for years to come. If U.S. officials think they are going to get a lot more help from NATO in the decades to come, they are living in a dream world.

So here's my question: will NATO's new "Strategic Concept," currently being formulated for presentation at the NATO summit next fall, reflect this emerging reality? Will it openly acknowledge that Europe is not going to commit more resources, and identify a set of (fairly modest) common goals that the alliance actually has some chance of achieving? Or will it contain the usual pious declarations of transatlantic solidarity, along with various empty pledges that everyone knows are no more than polite fictions?
 

Super Commando Dhruva

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Greece is just the first in the list of dominos to fall. Just look at all the eurozone member countries. They are in no position to dole out money to help the PIIGS. Its laughable, how these guys make headline news by announcing trillion dollar package to rescue the Euro. Too funny! First, the housing crisis already have made the whole lot of them insolvent. Debt cannot finance debt. Period. Eurozone countries and UK are going to crumble. And if the US doesn't shield itself and start taking measures to reduce external debt, its going down next.
I think you are from financial background. So please suggest whats the solution to this mess, not for Greece but for whole EU ?
 

Daredevil

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I wonder why is the external debt taken as a measure of gdp when in no way is the complete gdp an earning for any government, shouldn't the external debt be calculated against the forex reserves, exports-imports if its favorable and the annual budgetary allocations (excluding debt raised to finance this), which sound the ways of financing all these debts.

Or is it assumed the government will confiscate all the holdings and produces of a country at the time of emergency?

Would be great if someone could help explain this, thanks.
Debt to GDP ratios will tell you how much strained the economy is (due to external borrowings) and the ability of the countries to pay back the debts. The higher the external debt as a %ge of gdp the more likely is economy in trouble.

Though one needs to classify the external debt into public and private debt. It is the external public debt that matters the most to the economy because it is the sovereign debt and government has to pay back otherwise the country will be declared bankrupt. This is what is going to happen to Greece if it is not bailed out now as there are bonds that are going to mature this may. If Greece doesn't pay back, it means the country has defaulted and the credit rating of Greece will take a beating massively and all the capital from Greece will fly away to much safer economies and this in turn leads to depression in economy and consequent chaos and riots and what not.

On the other hand, if private companies default on private debt, the debtors have the right to seize the company and sell the assets of the company and recover the losses. So, government has nothing to with such debt. One has to note that the private external debt might be coming to the country in the form of capital as well. Example being Tata motors raising money from external banks and financial institutions to fund the acquisition of Corus steel and Jaguar-LandRover car companies.
 
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thakur_ritesh

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Debt to GDP ratios will tell you how much strained the economy is (due to external borrowings) and the ability of the countries to pay back the debts. The higher the external debt as a %ge of gdp the more likely is economy in trouble.

Though one needs to classify the external debt into public and private debt. It is the external public debt that matters the most to the economy because it is the sovereign debt and government has to pay back otherwise the country will be declared bankrupt. This is what is going to happen to Greece if it is not bailed out now as there are bonds that are going to mature this may. If Greece doesn't pay back, it means the country has defaulted and the credit rating of Greece will take a beating massively and all the capital from Greece will fly away to much safer economies and this in turn leads to depression in economy and consequent chaos and riots and what not.

On the other hand, if private companies default on private debt, the debtors have the right to seize the company and sell the assets of the company and recover the losses. So, government has nothing to with such debt. One has to note that the private external debt might be coming to the country in the form of capital as well. Example being Tata motors raising money from external banks and financial institutions to fund the acquisition of Corus steel and Jaguar-LandRover car companies.
thanks for that and also to Armand.

the point i am making is, gdp is not something the government can confiscate and liquidate and bail it self out. they can only do that from the earning that they make (like collections from tax, sale of national assets and otherwise, through a trade balance if it is favourable, through the holdings in forex reserves, roi through overseas investments, etc) and through the savings the populace makes in the banking system, now taking this as a backdrop why is the debt calculated as a % of gdp and why not to the earnings and savings of a nation from where the money generation will happen, which makes more sense or so it sounds to me.
 

Daredevil

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thanks for that and also to Armand.

the point i am making is, gdp is not something the government can confiscate and liquidate and bail it self out. they can only do that from the earning that they make (like collections from tax, sale of national assets and otherwise, through a trade balance if it is favourable, through the holdings in forex reserves, roi through overseas investments, etc) and through the savings the populace makes in the banking system, now taking this as a backdrop why is the debt calculated as a % of gdp and why not to the earnings and savings of a nation from where the money generation will happen, which makes more sense or so it sounds to me.
I think its just a way of expression which is convenient and easy for comparison of debts across the countries at a macro economic level. Ideally, it would be good to calculate external debt as a %ge of net income of government.
 

Armand2REP

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Greek 'tax-dodging' doctors named
By Malcolm Brabant
BBC News, Athens

Greek authorities have started naming and shaming doctors alleged to have avoided paying taxes.

The finance ministry has published the names of 57 doctors who are accused of failing to pay tax.

The ministry imposed fines of several hundred thousand euros on 11 of the worst offenders.

The crackdown is part of a campaign to stop the widespread corruption and tax evasion that have contributed to Greece's debt crisis.

The finance ministry warned that it would confiscate the contents of bank accounts belonging to those who owed money to the state.

It estimates that by seizing such accounts, it can collect more than $40bn (£27bn), which constitutes 10% of Greece's enormous national debt.

The government's move is designed to satisfy widespread public demands for tax cheats to be punished.

It also aims to pacify ordinary people who are angry that they are having to suffer pay cuts and tax rises and believe that the rich are escaping scot-free.

Doctors, along with lawyers and other freelance, middle-class professionals, have been accused of fuelling Greece's black economy by failing to give receipts and under-declaring income.

While the name-and-shame campaign will undoubtedly win approval in some quarters of Greek society, it will also increase pressure on the government to lift parliamentary immunity, which currently protects corrupt politicians from being prosecuted.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8682174.stm
 

daZoy

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I have posted this in another thread in the forum -


In the longer run, its in Europe's interest to develop the countries from Balkan and other regions and this helps both the newly joined as well s the 'old' EU countries.
This gives the richer countries cheaper labour from these countries and opens markets for the companies to sell expensive German, French stuff etc. Secondly, human rights and other situations which are a little bit of an issue in these countries are regulated by the Europeans H.R commission.

for the newly joined country, it gets funds from the Europe to develop, and has open market to sell stuff in Europe, jobs for people who can work anywhere in Europe. Poland and Czech republic are very good example that come to mind. In the longer run these new E.U. countries will have a strong economy and a standard equal to the western European countries.

There is a difference between being a part of E.U and being a part of Eurozone, where you have a common currency. I believe that countries should be encouraged to join E.U, and the economies should grow to the point where they are not a burden on Euro, when they join.
Of course, there will be times where such bailouts as we see with Greece happen. If we look across the pond, we have pretty big states in the US which are practically bankrupt - California being the biggest So, its definitely not just a Europe specific problem.
No one talks about kicking California or even Alabama out of U.S.A or withdrawing US $ as a currency for these states.

This incident, in my opinion, just emphasis the importance of growing the Eurozone to include more countries, so there are more members and can share the burden, if such things happen again. No one needs Euro to be a new Deutsch Mark or French frank which other countries just happen to be using, and that can only happen when there are more countries using it and have strong economy which contribute towards a more 'equal' Europe and have to depends less on Germany and France. For now, we have to do what we have to do to keep one E.U and Eurozone growing.

daZoy
 

Zaki

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for now Greece's situation is very critical. Look at the Euro where at one stage was around 1.5000 and peoples were anticipating 1.7000 in coming months it has fallen upto 1.2400 only all thanks to Greece and USA. That is what i could never imagine an year ago. I have greek friends (forex traders) and they are still very much disappointed for the economy of greece. But i personally beleive it is about time when the recession will be over. Greece all alone has DOWN the EU and they cannot afford to bear this recession any longer. Greece is probably the most recession hit country in the world (in terms of %) and it is about time when European Union takes appropriate measure to stand greece on its feet once again.

I am very much optimistic (my observation after reading about greece on daily basis) that Greece is going to start recovering from this recession soon. All IMF, European and World Bank trying their best to stand greece once again on its feet. I am optimistic its a matter of only few weeks/months when Greece's economy will start improving once again

Aameen
 

nandu

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The Submarine Deals That Helped Sink Greece

ATHENS—As Greece slashes spending to avoid default, it hasn't moved to skimp on one area: defense.

The deeply indebted Mediterranean nation, whose financial crisis roiled the global financial system this year, is spending more than a billion euros on two submarines from Germany.

It's also looking to spend big on six frigates and 15 search-and-rescue helicopters from France. In recent years, Greece has bought more than two dozen F16 fighter jets from the U.S. at a cost of more than €1.5 billion.


Among Greece's questioned costs is more than a billion euros on new submarines.

Much of the equipment comes from Germany, the country that has had to shoulder most of the burden of bailing out Greece and has been loudest in condemning Athens for living beyond its means. German Chancellor Angela Merkel has admonished the Greek government "to do its homework" on debt reduction.

The military deals illustrate how Germany and other creditors have in some ways benefited from Greece's profligacy, and how that is coming back to haunt them.

Greece, with a population of just 11 million, is the largest importer of conventional weapons in Europe—and ranks fifth in the world behind China, India, the United Arab Emirates and South Korea. Its military spending is the highest in the European Union as a percentage of gross domestic product. That spending was one of the factors behind Greece's stratospheric national debt.

The German submarine deal in particular, announced in March as the country lurched toward bankruptcy, has cast a spotlight on the Greek military budget and on the foreign vendors supplying the hardware. The deal includes a total of six subs in a complicated transaction that began a decade ago with German firms.

The arms sales are drawing heat from Turkey, Greece's neighbor and arch-rival. "Even those countries trying to help Greece at this time of difficulty are offering to sell them new military equipment," said Egemen Bagis, Turkey's top European Union negotiator, shortly after the sub deal was announced. "Greece doesn't need new tanks or missiles or submarines or fighter planes, neither does Turkey."

Greece's deputy prime minister, Theodore Pangalos, said during an Athens visit in May by Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan that he felt "forced to buy weapons we do not need," and that the deals made him feel "national shame."

Other European officials have charged France and Germany with making their military dealings with Greece a condition of their participation in the country's huge financial rescue. French and German officials deny the accusations.

A spokesman for German Chancellor Merkel says the submarine transaction was the culmination of an old contract signed long before Greece's debt crisis. In May, France's defense ministry said Greek authorities have confirmed their willingness to pursue talks on several arm-procurement deals.

In May, Greece's economic crimes unit began investigating all weapons deals of the past decade—totaling about €16 billion—to determine if Greece overpaid or bought unnecessary hardware.


Prime Minister George Papandreou and his government have been chided over spending by Germany's Angela Merkel.

German prosecutors are investigating whether millions of euros in bribes were paid to Greek officials in connection with the sub deal. In May, the chief executive of one of the German companies helping to build the submarines, called Ferrostaal AG, resigned amid the probe.

For some prominent Greeks, the latest submarine deal was the last straw. In late April, Stelios Fenekos, a 52-year-old vice admiral of the 22,000-person strong Greek Navy, resigned his position, bringing a three-decade Navy career to an end. He says he did so to protest the Greek defense minister's decision to purchase the subs, as well as other decisions taken in recent months that Mr. Fenekos considers "politically motivated."

"How can you say to people we are buying more subs at the same time we want you to cut your salaries and pensions?" says Adm. Fenekos, in his first interview with a reporter. He was referring to the government's 5% cut in most pensions and even deeper slashes to public-sector wages enacted in response to the crisis. The Greek Navy, he says, cannot afford to maintain the additional submarines. It currently has eight subs.

A spokesman for the Greek Ministry of Defense said Mr. Fenekos' resignation was accepted. In stepping down, "Mr. Fenekos did not refer to the submarine deal," he said.

Greece became the first battleground in the Cold War, with the U.S. backing anti-Communists in the Greek civil war in the late-1940s against Communist insurgents. The conflict led U.S. President Harry Truman, in 1947, to pledge unlimited military support for nations under Communist threat, known as the Truman Doctrine.

While the rest of Western Europe used U.S. aid to rebuild its economy from the second World War, in Greece, the emphasis was on building up the military.

"Greece became the front line in the Cold War, and that began, right then and there, the Greek economic crisis of today," says Andre Gerolymatos, a professor of Hellenic studies at Simon Fraser University in Vancouver.

By the mid-1950s, the U.S. pulled back aid, much of which had been in the form of military hardware, shifting much of the burden for Greek military spending to Athens.



By this time, Greece's worsening relations with Turkey led to yet more arms spending. Despite being fellow members of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, the two nations are bitter rivals. The discovery of oil in the northern Aegean Sea and disagreements over territorial waters and airspace became the source of numerous—and expensive—altercations between the two countries.

An incident in 1996, involving a Turkish ship running aground on a rocky, uninhabited Greek islet, almost led to war. Greece later that year announced a 10-year modernization program of its armed services, costing nearly $17 billion.

The U.S. over the years catered to the two NATO members under a 7:10 ratio, meaning for every $7 million dollars of equipment it sold to Greece it sold $10 million to the more populous Turkey.

It was in that environment that Greece in 1998 went shopping for submarines. It decided on three German-built class-214 submarines, a state-of-the-art diesel-electric powered vessel, with the option of buying a fourth—for a total of €1.8 billion. The first was to be built at the Kiel headquarters of Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft GmbH, with the others built at the affiliated Hellenic Shipyards SA, in Skaramangas, Greece.

The arrangement, called the Archimedes Program, would preserve thousands of jobs at the Greek shipyard.

Greek officials in 2002 expanded it to include the modernization of three older class-209 submarines—work to be done at the Skaramangas shipyard using materials and help from the Germans. The increase would cost another €985 million.

The German side consisted of a company owned by German truckmaker MAN SE, called Ferrostaal, and Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft, now owned by ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems AG. (MAN has since reduced its stake in Ferrostaal to 30%.)

The total cost of the new and renovated subs: €2.84 billion.

As the military expenditures rose, Greece's two main political parties used them as a political football, each trying to make the budget deficit figures look worse when the other was in charge.

When the Socialist government first bought the submarines, it post-dated the accounting for them to the day when the vessels were to be delivered, rather than when they were purchased.

The government at the time was struggling to meet budget criteria for entry into the euro zone, which it joined a year behind other members in 2001. Pushing back the expenses saddled the bill with the Socialists' successors, the conservative New Democracy party, which came to power in March 2004.

The New Democracy government that year then used a similar tactic, by retroactively accounting for the expenditures on the date of purchase. That inflated the budget deficits of the previous government—while making it easier for the New Democracy government to meet its own deficit goals.

Both accounting methods at the time were allowed by the European Union. The resulting massive deficit revisions made in 2004 for the previous years—4.6% of gross domestic product versus 1.7% for 2003—triggered an investigation in 2004 by Eurostat, the European Union's statistics agency, to understand what caused the revisions. The findings did not result in any sanctions.

Military spending accounted for nearly a quarter of the difference in the 2003 figures, and even more in revisions made on the deficits for preceding years.

After the Socialist party, PASOK, returned to power in October 2009, it made a similar maneuver: It announced the federal deficit was much worse than the outgoing government had let on, mainly due to public hospital debts, setting in motion the financial crisis.

Meanwhile, not one of the subs had been delivered. When Greek officials traveled to Kiel to test the first sub, called the Papanikolis, they said that they found that in certain sea conditions the submarine listed to the right. "The Navy said we cannot accept this sub," said Mr. Fenekos, the admiral who recently resigned. "But the politicians did not want to stop it because they needed the production for the workers in the shipyard here."

ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems said the criticism was baseless and was made to delay payment.

By last fall, Greece had paid €2.032 billion, about 70% of the total owed. With the deal at an impasse, the German companies cancelled the contract.

Finally, in March, the two sides announced they had begun negotiating a new deal. Instead of having three older subs modernized, just one would be modernized, and Greece would buy two additional new ones, bringing the total to six new submarines—costing a total of €1.3 billion.

Abu Dhabi MAR LLC, a shipbuilding company in Abu Dhabi, would buy 75.1% of the Greek shipyard, with the expanded submarine deal a condition of the sale. The Greek government finally accepted the sub, with the understanding it would immediately resell it. No deal has been finalized.

Greece's defense minister, Evangelos Venizelos, speaking to the Greek parliament in March, explained that the deal was an attempt to end the mess, to "sever the Gordian knot" that the new government had inherited.

With 1,200 shipyard jobs at stake, Germany demanding concessions on the complex deal, and Greece having already paid two billion euros without receiving a single sub, the new arrangement was necessary, he said.

But in February, just as a solution appeared to be at hand, German prosecutors in Munich began turning up evidence of unsavory dealings, according to records of their investigation.

Ferrostaal executives authorized payments worth millions of euros to politicians to win the initial deal in 2000, through a Greek company called Marine Industrial Enterprises, according to the Munich prosecutor's records.

To do this, Ferrostaal used sham consulting contracts, according to the records. That company then distributed payments to "officials and decision-makers" in Greece, according to the records. The investigation is ongoing. No charges have been filed.

Adamos Seraphides, chairman of MIE Group Limited, a successor company to a division of Marine Industrial Enterprises, said he doesn't believe that the company's prior leadership was involved in bribery.

In March, police searched Ferrostaal offices, in Essen, seeking evidence of bribe payments. In May, several executives stepped down.

"Ferrostaal will continue to pursue the intensive dialogue with the state prosecutor's office in Munich and has pledged full and comprehensive support and cooperation," says a Ferrostaal spokesman.

A ThyssenKrupp spokesperson says the company got into the business only in 2005, when it bought Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft.

Despite the tortuous, decade-long journey of the submarine deal—and Greece's precarious financial standing—Germany stands ready for more business.

Guido Westerwelle, the German foreign minister, in February told a Greek newspaper that Germany doesn't want to force Greece to buy anything.

But "whenever it comes to the point when it's ready to buy fighter planes," a European fighter-plane consortium, which Germany represents in Greece, "wants to be considered in the decision."

A spokesman for Mr. Westerwelle says the minister didn't discuss fighter sales with the Greek government during the visit.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703636404575352991108208712.html
 

The Messiah

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Greek protesters armed with petrol bombs and sledgehammers rampage through Athens

- Thousands demonstrate against fresh wave of austerity measures
- Yobs in gas masks smash up pavements and hurl rubble at officers
- Two-day general strike comes after Government agrees more cuts
- EU leaders deepen anger by ordering Greece to slash another 325million euros by next week
- Two Greek ministers resign in protest over latest demands
















 

Blackwater

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Just this morning I read in the newspaper that Germanys ruling party has suffered a defeat in polls as the voters are angry over the Greek bailout package that.

My question is, will such individual national opinion from members of EU bring about a collapse of the EU or at least shrink to just the power horses in the EU.

British decision not to join the Euro was a good move. If more such greece come up, it will drag the Euro down and along with it the strength of the EU itself.

Will we see the Franc and Mark come back in the future or does the EU have the resilience to bounce back and stay united?
Not only Greece but Portugal, Italy, Spain all are culprit
 

panduranghari

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The only reason that Greece got bailed out was because of the Euro currency. Basically in a nutshell - Greece, Spain, Portugal are not the kind of industrial hi-tech high production powers that the North European countries are. By joining the EU, these countries were basically living beyond their means with a strong currency that was basically suported by Germany, France, UK and Italy.

If they did not bail Greece out, then the Euro would be hammered and it would affect all of Europe and cause significant social damage.
Greece is not the problem. The problem is dollar based debt system.
 

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