WikiLeaks Revelations

Discussion in 'International Politics' started by bhramos, Jul 26, 2010.

  1. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    My take.
    Rahul told what is turning out to be the truth (about terror from right wingers, i would not use the word "Hindu" as terror as no religion). But it was not the correct reply to the question.
    When asked about LeT, he should have spoken about LeT and the concerns we have esp highlighted by 26/11. So it was really uncalled for to talk of right wing terror when the ambassador asked about LeT. It would have been better for Rahul to have seized the moment to talk about Hafeez Saeed and the others and 26/11 than to bring up a totally new topic.

    Also it was not required by him to talk about internal affairs to the ambassador of another country.

    All in all a big screw up.
     
  2. The Messiah

    The Messiah Bow Before Me! Elite Member

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    He is technically right though!

    If religious extremists get on the same pedestal here as they have in pakistan then we'll be more dangerous. He hasn't said that hindu terrorists are more dangerous than muslim terrorists in India....he said if a good portion of Hindus get radicalized then they could hard India more than muslims ever could...and he is right since hindus make up 80%+ population of the country.

    But saying this to foreign nationals is strict no-no and he should be hammered for it.
     
  3. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    He said:

    So, he DID say that the Bigger Threat was from Hindu groups.

    Now, the toting up of how many LeT or IM terrorist acts and how many Saffron terrorist act becomes the question to get the answer as to which is a greater threat. That both are a threat elicits no second opinion.

    That said, there is no doubt, terrorism, be it religion driven or ideology driven (as in the case of the Maoists), is BAD for the country's stability and without question should be curbed with a heavy hand. And Digvijay Singh's opinion be damned.

    Pragmatically seen, the LeT and IM terrorism is a BIGGER THREAT.

    However, from the political point of view, Hindu terrorists is a BIGGER THREAT since how much of space is available to the political parties to manoeuvre in their arithmetic of the Vote Bank Politics?!

    That is why they speak with forked tongues and can never take the bull by the horns!

    They have to please all, and in the end, they please none!

    Even if India has 80% Hindus, does it mean that all Hindus can be radicalised?

    By the same token, would it be right for any sane man to feel that All Muslims are terrorists?

    And all Christians are agents of the Pope and the West?

    I would classify such ideas (and it is heard often) as mere incoherent and disingenuous ramblings, divorced from the reality and in the realm of the fantasy world!
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2010
  4. nrj

    nrj Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Some fodder...........

    India's Muslims largely unattached to extremism: US cable


    RSS men killed Ajmer blast's mastermind: MP cops

     
  5. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    I agree that Indian Muslims are not too impressed with the shenanigans unleashed by the ISI and its appendages in India.

    They have realised that they are mere pawns in the hands of political parties who reap a rich harvest in votes with total shameless false promises.

    Further, the Muslims have realised that the best way for a decent existence is through education and they are going for it in a big way. They have also realised the economics of a small family.

    That such a backward state like Bihar, with all sections in dire straits economically and educationally, voted in a JD(U) BJP combine which did deliver to some extent compared to the others is a salute to India that everyone in India has tired of catch slogans and hollow war cries of social justice and other humbug that is thrown around during election time to be forgotten as fast as it being said.

    India has woken to the chimera and chicanery practised by the political parties.

    Deliver or vanish is India's cry. Political affiliation, caste, community, religion are all consigned to the dustbin.

    Muslims can no longer accept being manipulated by anyone.

    They have education and they are vibrant.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2010
  6. Agantrope

    Agantrope Senior Member Senior Member

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    sir, everything is fine. But what thing in this country is "we have only 2 different sh&t and we need to select which smells less foul".

    We made the option so we need to make the choice.
     
  7. gogbot

    gogbot Regular Member

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    HEY NOW!
    Your putting words in my mouth.
    I never said the old guard was anything negative.
    They have been in politics long before i have been even born gone through multiple governments , foreign and domestic policies.

    They are still an internal part of the political process,
    MMS etc and maybe even Advani all still have role to play.
    And frankly we would be worse of without them.
    That being said however i should clarify that i know they are not model politicians and pragmatically i don't expect them to be.

    And i don't think younger politicians will change that view either.
    However as time(as they get more experienced) goes by these will be the people who will come to replace them.


    The Canvas is still being drawn by people with their own pre-dispostitions.
    Some of them still remember Cold war politics.

    MY only implication of change is that this is not the case with newer politicians.
    They have yet to decide what their canvas will look like.

    My point being it will obviously be an opportunity for anyone to try and influence those decisions , its only natural.
    You think its only the Americans who can lobby.

    You mis-understood my original point.
    Which was to question your suggestion that
    Politicians Under 45 , liberal and open to having better relations with the US as being

    is a US puppet

    Your original statement
    Your connecting dots to draw up a US-UPA conspiracy with Rahul at the center

    Which has not happened , but people only keep saying that it will happen.

    But i do agree with you one thing , Rahul generally speaking has zero foreign policy sense , in the same way the rest of us would have.

    Now your putting words in his Mouth.

    He was referring to communal violence , caused as a result of Hindu radicals.
    And how that could strengthen Muslim extremism especially recruitment.

    one of my earlier posts
    Constiang the actual cable in question

    You probably should.
    Because for starters the Americans are not saying
    But in fact as saying
    They are are not speaking with absolutes as you are.

    So far as Omar and Rahul go , well they are at least better then your average run of the mill Babu.

    As i have stated above i share your view on experience , either you have misunderstood me prior, or i failed to express my view clearly in the previous post.
     
  8. anoop_mig25

    anoop_mig25 Senior Member Senior Member

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    well what rahul ganhi is saying can be thinking of congrees thinkers . if he would have know that something like wikileaks would happen then he would have never spoken about it and if congress fears show much about it then why doesnt it tames down such stupid radicals . does it want to repeat history so that it becomes sole custodiane of minority votes in india.

    why its that always someone form congress party come out with stupid theory of 26/11 hindu job or something like that i never see this things coming out of ncp/sp/rjd or even communist? is congrees so worried about its muslim votebank that it leads its leader to speak such stupid remarks

    second if rahul gandhi is so worried then he must come out publicly with such statement ? why such statement are always made in muslim dominated aear?
     
  9. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    what exactly did he think this statement to USA would achieve?? more aid to pakistan to fight hindu terrorism??
     
  10. The Messiah

    The Messiah Bow Before Me! Elite Member

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    You are right he shouldn't be saying this to usa officials. But my point still stands.
     
  11. ejazr

    ejazr Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Ok first of all, I have always held that the way RG is being made out to be PM material without even holding a portfolio or CM ship is laughable. We have no yardstick to judge him on because he never has held a position of authority in government. I have criticised and will continue to criticise RG being a PM candidate without proving himself competent enough in a lower position as a minister in a State govt. even first.

    Having said that, the arguments some people are giving are going down to the level petty personal insults and character assasiantion. Do you really need to question a person's citizenship or loyalty to Pakistan (as Modi is doing now) if you disagree with a person. This is very crass. This what fringe elements in Pakistan do to politicians they don't agree with by calling them an Indian agent or an atheist secular questioning their loyalty and integrity without proof.

    Ravi Prasad on the otherhand was a measured voice and had valid points. But some members on the board as well as the usualy fringe groups like the VHP/Shiv Sena e.t.c. are unnecessarily giving it a polarising and communal tone to what a diplomat wrote about what the Ambassador thought RG told him talking at Lunch. The coming back of communal politics and creating a perception of RG is insulting Hindus/is not Indian/is Italian/is CIA agent sent from the vatican (a VHP spokesperson said this) and all assorted conspiracy theories is just unpleasant when valid points can be made like Ravi Prasad did.


    Lets look at the facts without an ideological blinkers.

    This cable was a summary of discussion that Rahul had with the Ambassador on VARIOUS topics at a Luncheon. These topics included about how UPA has to target the rural areas, building up the cadre and youths. Now these are perceptions of the Ambassador and not a policy meeting or a Counter Terrorism discussion with the GoI.

    Coming to the contentious part, what was the perception of the Ambassador?

    I want to start with the last highlighted line. The extremist front is being radicalised in response to the attacks coming from Pakistan or some indigenous politcal Islamists groups (probably SIMI) within India. The last line is the ONLY line were the word terror was used and it is used referring to the terrorist attacks coming from Pakistan or indigenous muslim extremist groups. Hindus were not even mentioned with reference to terrorist acts. Infact, by August 2009 (when the cable was sent) there was still no solid proofs of Abhinav Bharat and Sanatan Sanstha groups being involved in terrorist activities and bomb blasts. It was only in 2010 that solid proofs emerged and people were chargesheeted.

    So the comparison is not between LeT and hindu "terror" groups so to speak, but between indigenous muslim support to LeT activities within India being a bigger threat or Hindu radical groups creating religious tensions and political confrontations as well as the way they react to terror attacks emanating from Pakistan.

    So what I read from this without following sound bytes and statements from politcal parties who seek to benefit from communalising this issue is that: if radical Hindu groups grow and keep seeking unnecessary confrontation on every issue with muslim community, and because of a response to to terrorist attacks by Pakistani based outfits or indigenous muslim extremist outfits, that can cause a more destablising effect. No comaprison of LeT with Hindu "terror" groups here at all.
    --------------------
    Now again emphasizing that this is my reading of the Ambassadors reading of RG's conversation. A lot of links in the chain. The "clarification" that was made basically said that RG considers all forms of terrorism and communalisms as equally threatning and that is a good thing, but needs to come out more clearly and forcefully.

    My personal opinion is that indigenous muslim extremism should be tackled at an equal footing as Hindu communal or radical groups. Ofcourse muslims will have to target their own communal elements just like Hindus will have to tackle their own extremist elements. The GoI can only facilitate this process and not do it for either Hindus or Muslims. But being a muslim, I always hold that for muslims priority should be tackle extremist elements among Muslims first. Similarly, I know that Hindus are involved in tackling extremist elements among their own community.

    When it comes to LeT, we know that it has modules in about 20 countries, has the backing of ISI and is now closely affliated to Al Qaeda. Even if you do compare groups like Abhinav Bharat who were targeting specifically Indian muslims and an overthrow of the GoI and were India specific; there is no comparison and LeT without doubt would be more dangerous in the present scheme of things.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2010
  12. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    ejazr

    Point well taken.

    However, ponder on these points.

    1. What are the circumstances that has encouraged some Muslims to assist LeT?
    • What are the circumstances that led to Hindu terror?
    1. What has the successive govts done to eliminate both, apart from cosmetic verbiage?

    It is no idea of telling the world what is a bigger threat. (Would anyone wash dirty linen in public and that too to a guest)?

    The Govt, be it any govt, has the instruments to tackle it. Are they doing so, or are they merely fanning it for vote mileage?

    Chidambaram is the only one who is seriously addressing the issue, while his own Party's compatriot, Digvijay Singh is criticising him and doing his best to scuttle all efforts to curb terrorism of all hues.

    Rajiv Gandhi's intemperate statement, in no way, is assisting in dousing the flames of communal hatred. Bluntly put, it is a desperate clutching of straws to salvage the sinking ship!

    But then, why blame them, they are political animals. They have to divide to rule.

    And lastly, what is stopping Rahul Gandhi to give a categorical statement, affirming/ denying/ explaining his point of view? Why is he resorting to flunkies to explain and that too in an obfuscating manner skirting the issue. This is more damaging since India believes that none in the Congress would dare say anything that is not flattering to the Gandhis. The sycophancy of the Congressmen is legend. Therefore, anything that the flunkies say is never believed!

    Indeed, if there is Hindu terror, ban the RSS, VHP, Bajrang Dal et al.

    What is stopping Rahul Gandhi or the GOI?

    Ban them and stop showing India in poor light to foreign diplomats.

    Put the money where the mouth is.

    Have the guts and gumption to do so.

    Shape up or ship out!
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2010
  13. prahladh

    prahladh Respected Member

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    Whys isn't RG making this clarification. Why someone else. when he has the guts to break away from his security and hug & shake hands with the public, I'm sure if his conscious was clear he would have made that clarification himself.
     
  14. Abir

    Abir Regular Member

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    Good idea by Rahul. Let's convince US that Hindu terror is the biggest threat to the world and churn out billion dollar aid from uncle to curb it! Then we can buy weapons using the 'aid' and we can always put some Ran Sene crackpot behind the bar or celebrate Valentines day in a gala way to show the progress! :D

    On a serious note: Is there any political party in India which tries to tackle terror regardless of the faith by which the terrorists try to justify their act?
     
  15. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Given the divide encouraged by political parties through the ages since Independence, one wonders if the communities can cleanse the attitudes by themselves.

    It is only the Govt that can act and the communities can help by not agitating (but that is a pipedream).

    The only way is education and avenues for economic upliftment. So far, across the board, there has been verbal placebos without any concrete effort.

    The lower sections of society cutting across divides are the most prolific in increasing the population. They must be educated that a small family permits spreading the meagre income equitably including for education and healthier food that is essential for mental and physical growth.

    Once there is education and avenues for income, contentious issues will fade.

    And lastly, assistance should not be handed out as doles or reservations. Doles and reservation saps the individual of his self respect and the individual ingrain in himself a psyche that becomes dependant on only on assistance being the salve to enhance in life.
     
  16. anoop_mig25

    anoop_mig25 Senior Member Senior Member

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    i too support it if congrees/or congrees lead goi believes that rss and its sister organisation are involved in terror activities then it must straight forward bane them. for what there are waiting for divine intervention
     
  17. Agantrope

    Agantrope Senior Member Senior Member

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    Sir,

    1. Some people who are too religious are easily brainwashed to see that muslims in india are tortured, else how the hell they would get tons and tons money from the canada and Saudi as donation for their foul work. ISI has been trying this for more than 2 decades but their as*es are kicked hard by indian muslims. Indians have work to do and dont have time for this blasphemy!
    2. This is a hypothetical question. As per Rahul baba's view, When minority appeasement is at its best, the (radical group of) hindus will get frustrated and they will soon do the same of other terrorists, as i said we people have lot to do other than this *****.
    3. Lips service.

    Indeed if they dare to do they know the consequences if they are dare to take of this matter. This is very senstive issue in india, like current. This is to score some political points. Bongress @ its best.

    As already said, we have only 2 option and we made the choice. South Parks rockss...

    I need to people to maintain the same peace when Ayodhya verdict came. If we fight then obviously i is good for 2 neighbours. We are people of same land. Need of the hour is to get rid of the scumbags invloved in the 2G scam and not this bleedy hell of whole issue. This kind of diversion is well planned and the nation insult was now under the carpet for quite few days.

    Do this need importance more than CWG scam, LIC housing loan scam, 2G Scam? Development is the need of the hour and not the religion now.
     
  18. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    I am no politician. I have merely watched their shenanigans with growing dismay. Open today’s papers and you will see how Mamata Bannerjee and the CPM are attempting to create chaos and disrupt normal life. Already one student bystander has lost his eyesight for life while another student activist is dead! To imagine these type of people are our leaders!

    In short, we are going through troubled times. There are scams, illegal appointments to post requiring high integrity like the CVC, land grabs by Chief Ministers, Governors finding excuses to topple govts, Lok Ayuktas appointed only o be ignored, CJI alleged to be lying, Minister attempting to subvert the judiciary, VIPs illegally acquiring flats misusing the name of war dead, CWG being probed by CWG auditors, Parliament paralysed, Govt only debating and obfuscating, Politicians opening their heart to foreign diplomats instead to the people who elect them and industrialist claim that we are a banana republic, prices shooting through the ceiling, etc etc!

    All this to the average Indian, who having voted, irrespective of political inclination or being apolitical, expects whichever govt comes in power to deliver and look after the interest of the country and its people. Honestly, he has faith in the Govt. But then, when this entire negative and demoralising scenario emerges, where theft, deceit, lies and total abdication of governance to accommodate the interests of the powers that be, one loses hope! It is not a pleasant feeling I assure you, especially when it is touted that India is resurgent! Is this the sign of resurgence? To add to the misery, divisive politics is reaching its zenith!

    I would say that Rahul Gandhi’s statement is most dangerous to the stability of the country. Who is e fooling? This very statement, which he has not elaborated with facts, will alienate more Hindus than whatever is there in the lunatic fringe. Indeed, he is fanning more radicalisation. And this is what worries me. The posts in this very thread is a statement to this regard where there seems to be indignation of otherwise rational posters!! Of course, if only it was elaborated as to how the Hindu radicals are a bigger threat, then this consternation that we see on this thread and even in the public domain, would not have manifested itself. Therefore, I feel that this irresponsible statement without facts, is acting as a catalyst to even greater radicalisation than is there and is encouraging this threat that he pretends to be worried about to really become a bigger one! People like Togadia are being given a new lease of life to whip up greater fanaticism!

    If indeed Hindu terror is a bigger threat, I say forget about votes, ban them. That will hopefully be the end of all this terror. Nehru had banned them. So, the legacy can be furthered.

    Minority appeasement or reservations are not the answer and even those who get it feel that they are being treated as second class. It fans greater feeling of discrimination since they feel that they require props to exist. Treat all of us as citizens without distinction or sops.

    STOP DIVIDING US!

    The people have realised the tricks that the politicians play. No wonder there was no riots after the Ayodhya Babri verdict. A legal redress has been taken much to the dismay of master dividers like Digvijay Singh. The Bihar elections too have been a slap in the face to those who play with the sentiments of the people.

    We, common Indians of all denominations and status, care for India. Much more that you politicians fighting for the loaves and fishes of office to make your nest! You all are injecting fear in our hearts so much we do not trust each other!
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2010
  19. Shredder

    Shredder Regular Member

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    What is really amusing and odd is that he and his party are banking on Muslim votes at the cost of Hindus, he says Hindu and Saffron terror without caring about what the Hindus think, but most of the terror acts carried out by Fundamentalist Muslims get no tag of being Muslim terrorists, he is "appeasing" the Muslims by throwing dirt on Hindus.
     
  20. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Rahul Gandhi can be excused to some extent since he is green behind the ears.

    The actual don is that man Digvijay Singh, who was roundly defeated in the hustings and has not dared return to MP politics taking the cover of vanavas (atonement of sins in the jungle).

    So to remain in the limelight, he has to contrive ways and ensure that others in this party too are put in a limbo like him!

    I interact with all communities in my personal capacity and I find no hatred amongst them. In fact, there are many commonalities in thought.
     

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