Why India thinks China is an enemy

Is china an enemy state ?

  • yes

    Votes: 54 78.3%
  • no

    Votes: 9 13.0%
  • can't say

    Votes: 6 8.7%

  • Total voters
    69

Ray

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Many Chinese remain unaware that certain forms of behaviour and language are unacceptable in multicultural societies elsewhere. In Hong Kong one of the biggest-selling toothpaste brands was called Darkie, its trademark being a caricature of an Al Jolson-type smiling black man with gleaming white teeth. Overseas protests eventually led to the name being changed to Darlie.
Extract from the newslink att at post #99.

I don't think that it is racism in the pure sense.

It is just that the most Mainland Chinese are not aware of the world beyond its frontiers and hence appear a trifle crude.

On the other hand, HK naming a toothpaste as Darkie, indicates the creeping Han arrogance from the Mainland.

No wonder they are having problems in Africa where their managers and workers are not treating the Africans as humans.
 

Ray

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Let us look at Malaysia as a whole and the racial problems.

INDEPENDENCE OF MALAYA AND THE FORMATION OF
MALAYSIA.

RACIAL PROBLEMS

Malaya consists of a '"plural society" which was formed by different races with various backgrounds and customs. In The Malaysian Development Experience, Changes and Challengesbook that published by INTAN, states that Malaya is "a colonial creation with ethnic groups living side by side but never mixed". Many factors have caused this situation.

The first can be traced back to the "divide and rule" policy during British colonization. This kind of administration greatly limited interaction and communication among the different ethnic groups and segregated them according to their economic functions.

The Malays were known to be farmers and fishermen and lived in the rural areas or kampung. Since there were also Malays who were involved in the government sector as ordinary officers and clerks, they were perceived to be dominant in politics and the first group of people that the British negotiated with.

Most of the Chinese were involved in the commercial and mining sectors and were found mainly in urban areas. The Indians, on the other hand, worked as labourers in estates and plantations. Hence, these two races were perceived to be more dominant in the economics of the country.

The education system, as it was long before we know it today, also varied according to the different ethnic groups in terms of syllabus, curriculum and methods of dissemination. There was no such thing as a standardized education system back then.

While the Malays and Indians felt that a minimal amount of literacy was sufficient, the Chinese were vying to strengthen their bond with China through education, since most of the teachers and textbooks were imported from China. The same concept was practiced in Tamil schools.

Since these vernacular schools comprised a single race, lessons were conducted in its respective language, such as Malay, Mandarin and Tamil. Due to the inconsistencies and differences in the education system, there existed barriers and gaps among the different races in Malaya.

The Japanese occupation only widened the rift between the races, especially the Chinese and Malays. While the Malays were given better treatment by the Japanese who were in need of their support, the Chinese were tortured and brutally mistreated. This led to the formation of the Malayan Peoples' Anti-Japanese Army (MPAJA) to fight the Japanese.

To ward off attacks from resistance groups which comprised mainly Chinese, the Japanese instigated the anti-Chinese feeling by forming paramilitary units which consisted mainly of Malays, and thus, further widened the gap among the two races.

When the Communists began their violence in the 1948, the British were forced to
declare a state of Emergency throughout Malaya. It was during this period that inter- racial relations became worse since the British had formed forces, comprising mostly Malays, to fight the guerilla groups led by the Communists, who were mainly Chinese.

All of these factors caused a great division in the Malayan society and much effort had to be taken to resolve the problem.

Efforts Towards Racial Unity

In 1949, the Inter-Racial Relations Committee (Jawatankuasa Hubungan Antara Kaum) was formed, to enable leaders of various ethnic groups to find a solution to the existing racial problems.

The committee, comprising Dato' Onn bin Jaafar, Tan Cheng Lock, E.E.C Thuraisingham and 12 other members proposed that non-Malays be involved in local politics and more opportunities be given to the Malays in the business and industrial sectors.

The committee also proposed that greater racial tolerance and understanding be fostered in the hope of achieving racial unity.

In 1951, the British government formed the Member System, with the hope of achieving racial unity. The member system was similar to the Cabinet system as we know it today, and enabled people from various ethnic groups to get involved in the administration of the government and hold portfolios in areas such as Home Affairs, Agriculture, Land, Mines and Communication, Education, Health, Forestry, and Works and Housing.

Although the more important portfolios in areas of finance and defense were still dominated by the British, the involvement of leaders of various ethnic groups enabled co- operation among the different races.

Education also played an important role in paving the way towards racial unity in Malaya. In 1949, the Central Advisory Committee took form with the main purpose of unifying the local education system and implementing it. However, the committee failed to achieve its goal and its proposal that English be made the sole medium of education in schools in the Holgate Report was vehemently opposed by the Federal Legislative Council.

Although the committee did not achieve much, it was a clear indication that the British were indeed making an effort to unify the multiracial society through education with one medium of instruction.

Another committee which was established one year later, produced the Barnes Report, which recommended in 1952, that the syllabus of all primary schools be standardized and taught in English and Malay, while secondary schools retain English as their mode of instruction.

Led by Dr W.P.Fenn and Dr Y.T. Wu, the British formed yet another committee to study the status of Chinese vernacular education in Malaya to incorporate it into a unified education system. The result was the Fenn-Wu report, which agreed to a national education system, but at the same time, proposed that Chinese medium schools be maintained.

Finally, in 1952, the Education Ordinance based on the Barnes Report was approved. The Chinese and Indians were not in the least bit happy and resisted the new ruling. However, the long-awaited decision on the national education system was only seen in the Razak Report after much deliberation and ethnic bargaining. The report was subsequently approved by the Federal Legislative Council on 16th May, 1956.

POLITICAL PARTIES IN MALAYSIA

United Malays National Organization (UMNO)

UMNO was formed on 11th May 1946 and led by its first President, Dato' Onn bin Jaafar. Its sole purposes were, at that time, to unite the Malays and lead the opposition against the Malayan Union, to protect the interests of the Malays and to gain independence from the British.

Several years later, a conflict of interest occurred between Dato' Onn and his party members. In his belief that an inter-racial nation was essential to achieve proper independence, Dato' Onn had proposed that non-Malays be allowed to join the party. Due to this conflict, Dato' Onn resigned and was replaced by Tunku Abdul Rahman, who later became the first Prime Minister of Malaya.

Malayan Chinese Association (MCA)

MCA was formed by Leong Yew Koh and Lee Hau-Shik on 27th Feb. 1949. Its first
president was Tan Cheng Lock.

The objectives of MCA were to unite the Chinese and protect their interests, to propose more liberal citizenship, and to co-operate with the government and oppose Communism during the Emergency years.

The party received much respect from the rest of society due to their efforts against communism, which involved the recruitment of the Chinese into the police and armed forces, and the resettlement of the local community into "new villages".

Malayan Indian Congress (MIC)

MIC was formed in August 1946 by John Thivy, who sought to protect the rights of the Indian community in Malaya and voice their opinions to the government.

In the earlier years of its formation, however, the party did not receive much support from local Indians since it was dominated by Indians from the upper class, while most of the Indians in Malaya at that time, were labourers who hailed from the lower class of society.

The MIC received full support from the Indian people of Malaya only when the Tamils took over the party in 1954.

THE FIGHT FOR INDEPENDENCE

The elections

In 1952, UMNO and MCA combined forces, formed the UMNO-MCA Alliance, and took part in the local government and town council elections. The results were overwhelming. They had won 9 out of the 12 seats contested.

Realizing their potential as a joint coalition, both parties decided to take their efforts a step further – the general elections in 1955. This time, the MIC joined forces as well, and together the Alliance became a representative of the three main ethnic groups in Malaya. Another major victory was won in the 1955 elections when the Alliance bagged 51 out of the 52 seats contested.

Tunku Abdul Rahman was elected the first Chief Minister, while 10 members from the Alliance were elected ministers. The majority of the Legislative Council was Alliance's members, but the Executive Council was still dominated by British officials. Simultaneously, the High Commissioner held ultimate authority over any bill. As it was, Malaya still hadn't been granted full independence.

Tunku Abdul Rahman wasted no time and flew to London on his "Merdeka Mission" in January 1955 to coax the British to grant independence to Malaya. The British agreed and subsequently fixed the date for independence - 31st August 1957.

The Reid Commission

Before independence could be attained however, some details needed to be taken care of, the most important being a new constitution for an independent Malaya. Hence, the British government appointed Lord Reid to head the Commonwealth Constitutional Commission to chart a new constitution for Malaya.

Known as the Reid Commission, the committee was given the task of preparing a constitution that would serve a united and democratic Malaya with a firm government foundation, bearing in mind that the Sultans and the Malays were to retain their rights and special privileges.

After much hard work, 131 memorandums were received from individuals and various organizations in Malaya. However, the draft of the constitution submitted by the Reid Commission was not to the liking of the Alliance, in particular, the proposals on religion and citizenship.

Another delegation went to London, led again by Tunku Abdul Rahman to clarify certain matters and amend the draft of the constitution. The final amendment involved ethnic bargains. The MIC and MCA agreed to give special rights to the Malays and maintain Malay as the national language. UMNO, on the other hand, agreed to allow Chinese and Indian participation in politics and be awarded citizenship. After much discussion, the constitution was finally agreed upon and became known as the Merdeka Constitution.

Merdeka! Merdeka! Merdeka!

Malaya did achieve its independence as agreed upon on 31st August 1957. The famous Merdeka proclamation by Tunku Abdul Rahman, who became the first Prime Minister of Malaya, took place at the Merdeka Stadium in Kuala Lumpur.
The Sultan of Negeri Sembilan, Almarhum Tuanku Abdul Rahman ibni almarhum
Tuanku Muhammad was proclaimed the first sultan of independent Malaya.
The first general election of Malaya was held in 1959, in which the Alliance won 74 seats out of the 104 seats contested.

THE FEDERATION OF MALAYSIA

Sometime in 1955, and later in 1959, Singapore had suggested that it be merged with Malaya. This proposal, however, was rejected by Malaya. At the time, Singapore's population comprised mainly Chinese and Malaya feared that this would affect its racial composition, which was predominantly Malay. There was also the fear that the Communists, whose activities were still rampant in Singapore, might influence Malaya and impede its struggle to be rid of the threat of Communism.

Four years after Malaya's independence, however, Malayan Prime Minister Tunku Abdul Rahman took the region by surprise on 27th May 1961, when he made a speech stating his proposal to merge Malaya, Singapore and the Borneo territories of Sabah, Sarawak and Brunei. His sudden change of mind was influenced by the state of politics and economy in Singapore and the other territories.

The Factors Leading to the Proposal of a Merger

One of the reasons Tunku Abdul Rahman was keen on a merger with Singapore was for economic purposes. Singapore had a large number of industrial firms and a large population, which complemented its position as one of the more important trading ports in this region.

The Borneo territories, on the other hand, boasted of richness in natural resources such as oil, natural gas and timber, and fertile agricultural grounds that produced pepper, rubber and much more. Tunku Abdul Rahman believed that a merger with these colonies would be of much value to Malaya.

Tunku Abdul Rahman was also seeking to liberate these colonies from colonization. Malaya had already achieved its independence four years earlier. While Singapore practiced to a large extent, a self-governing policy, Sabah and Sarawak were still very much under British control.

In Brunei, the Sultan maintained his autocratic powers but was compelled to receive advise from a British Resident. Tunku Abdul Rahman felt that a merger of these colonies with Malaya would speed up independence from the British.
Another factor was the stronghold of Communism over Singapore. As time passed, their activities did not cease.

Singapore was then led by Lee Kuan Yew, who, frustrated with the constant disputes and strikes in the mid-1950s, decided to woo some of the Communists into his government, hoping to find favour with them and eventually soften their blows. However, the Communists were adamant about continuing their activities and eventually formed their own party, known as the Barisan Socialis, after they were forced to resign from the government.

Fearing that Malaya would be in grave danger should the Communists decide to support their allies in Malaya from across the straits, Tunku Abdul Rahman felt that a merger with Singapore would make it easier to deal with the Communists.

Apart from Singapore, Communism was also thriving in Sarawak, where the communists formed an underground association, which exerted its influence on workers' associations, students and farmers.

There also existed cultural similarities between these territories. Singapore comprised a large Chinese population, while Malaya had a mixed array of Malays, Chinese and Indians. The initial fears expressed by some UMNO members about the Malays being outnumbered by the Chinese, were dispelled when they were convinced that ethnic balance would be restored once the Borneo Territories, which comprised most Malays and indigenous groups, merged with Malaya.

Response from Singapore, the Borneo Territories and Brunei

Singapore still retained its initial interest in Malaya and was therefore, eager to merge with Malaya when Tunku Abdul Rahman made the proposal in 1961. The only opposition came from the Communist-dominated party, Barisan Socialis.

Despite this, Lee Kuan Yew actively campaigned to support the merger. His efforts paid off and a referendum held on 1 September 1962 indicated that 71.1% of the population of Singapore supported the merger.

Singapore was promised autonomy in education, revenue and labour while the central government would be operating in Kuala Lumpur. Its free entreport status would also be maintained.

Like Singapore, Brunei was equally keen on the merger, since its ruler, Sultan Ali Saifuddin was hoping to gain protection from a larger country like Malaya. A.M. Azahari, the leader of the opposition party, Parti Rakyat, however, strongly opposed the merger and led a revolt against the government of Brunei, in which he was defeated. Azahari had an ulterior motive – to merge all the North Borneo territories and place them under the reins of Brunei.

Eventually, Brunei changed its mind after theSultan realized that he wouldn't be given special rights above the other Sultans in Malaya and would have only limited oil reserves if Brunei merged with Malaya.
 

Ray

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From pursuit of being the upper
to being the lower




When han chinese are in conflict, they don't look for fairness or justice, but look for the rank difference. Han chinese relationship is characterized with the upper and the lower, and the upper has every right to act freely without any duty in conflict, while the lower has to take every duty and responsibility for anything. It makes the upper to "enjoy a life" and the lower to live in hell. Then all of the lower
wants to release the pressure from the upper, and everybody wants to be the upper.

So you can see han chinese arrogantly rebuke the victim after offending, han chinese educate the victim to be moral to tolerate the offending, han chinese scold the victim if the latter resists, han chinese blame the victim on "provoking",
han chinese feel so proud if they offend others, han chinese think it proving their higher social rank to treat others rudely, while think it proving their lower social rank if they need to treat others politely, han chinese get paid respect to after offending others, and get despised after get offended, the offender does nothing wrong.

......

On the other side, when the victims get offended, they are under great han chinese morality pressure to give up resisting the offending, their family members or relatives oppress the victims more than the offender, the victim does nothing right.

......

The "benefit" of being the upper, and the "punishment" of being the lower, makes han chinese to "struggle" to be the upper. They can do everything to reach "the great life goal". Han chinese think they have to "live the hardest life of the hard to become the upper" "吃得苦中苦,方为人上人", and look for every reason to prove themselves the upper whatever the fact is.

...

They can prove china the upper nation, though there are hundreds of million people spend less than 1 US dollar on daily life. They can prove han chinese the upper race comparing to the beast race of Manchu, though they had got conquered and ruled by Manchu for hundreds of years. Even, some of han chinese think the Manchu conquest just helped them to expand their territory. And how do they think about the comfort troops and the comfort women? "It is our wise tactics or great strategy to fight against Japanese invaders!" Some of them will proudly tell you. Or it shows "han chinese soft power". They could defeat the
invaders with their soft body in soft bed. Anyway, it proves han chinese the upper race, and the invaders stupidly lower.



But the race of higher rank pursuer had to be the lower race for times and for centuries.

They had to build the long fence (长城 great wall) to enclose themselves. They didn't act like the upper.

They had to defend themselves after getting defeated again and again in their own land for hundreds of years in Song dynasty. It cannot prove them the upper.

They had to live under Mongolian rule for 89 years in Mongolian Yuan Empire. Han chinese was the forth class, the lowest class, in that empire. Despite han chinese described themselves the superior race living in the superior land(人杰地灵), despite their great land was so fertile, despite they outnumbered their rival so much, they had to kneel as slaves of the "barbarian race of Mongolian", and their women had to comfort Mongolian men for so many years.

They had to live under the Manchu rule for 267 years in Manchu Qing Empire. Similar to Mongolian Yuan Dynasty, han chinese population was more than 30 times of its rival Manchu, plus they had their immense fertile "central land". But the superior race even could not have their hair cut freely.

They worked as comfort women and comfort troops (伪军,慰安军)for the
dog-fathered small Japanese monsters(狗日的小日本鬼子, which is one of the most famous, most popular, han chinese "patriotism" idioms).



How can a upper rank pursuer race be the lower race in international conflict?

They weaken their national power when they fight against each others to be the upper, or when they cannot consider for each other to cooperate to fight against the invaders. They fight against each other much more than against the invaders.

Because they dream of the "upper life", they are psychologically weak. Most of them cannot fight for freedom to death, but uncontrollable kneel to violent death threat. They cannot be the upper after death, so when the death threat comes, they'd rather take the dishonor to kneel to keep the opportunity to be the upper one day. (留得青山上,不怕没柴烧)They have no choice between freedom and death, but the choice between to kneel to live to possibly be the upper one day and to die without the opportunity to be the upper.

They know nothing about social fairness, or know nothing about national honor, though they never forget to be the upper nation. They used to offend and get offended. They don't know what dignity or honor is. When they get invaded, they cannot be brave enough.

Han Chinese always create stress among themselves. So when they are in conflict with other nations, the government is not as "courageous" as they are when they oppress the lower in their society. The stress makes the upper han chinese to worry about the rising up from inside.

Han chinese are also morally lower than most of the races in the world, because the upper doesn't need to take the duty to be fair to the lower. The "freedom from morality" makes all of han chinese to be more and more immoral. (The lower class alway has the mental conflict between accepting the restriction for them and accepting the morally free upper class. In the end, all of them choose to be free from morality.)

Han chinese are also the lower in personality, attitude and behavior. If you visit china, you will find a lot of confessions in their country. The confessions (slogans) read "To be polite!" "To be civilized!" "To cede!" "Don't fight!" "To love
cleanness!"

Han chinese are also lower qualified. Because they don't need to find fact and truth to seek justice to treat each other fairly, comparatively, fact, truth, knowledge don't affect their lives as much as the upper/lower relationship does. Such a race can only stay in poor quality.

http://ehcehc.livejournal.com/1740.html
Interesting, what?

Let's introspect.
 

amoy

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Bumiputera or Bumiputra
In the 1970s, the Malaysian government implemented economic policies designed to favour bumiputras (including affirmative action in public education) to create opportunities, and to defuse inter-ethnic tensions following the extended violence against Chinese Malaysians in the May 13 Incident in 1969. These policies have succeeded in creating a significant urban Malay middle class. They have been less effective in eradicating poverty among rural communities. Some analysts have noted a backlash of resentment from excluded groups, in particular the sizable Indigenous Non-Muslim Orang Asli, Chinese and Indian Malaysian minorities.


The concept of a bumiputra ethnic group in Malaysia was coined by activist Tunku Abdul Rahman. It recognized the "special position" of the Malays provided in the Federal Constitution of Malaysia, in particular Article 153. But, the constitution does not use the term "bumiputra"; it defines only "Malay" and "aborigine" (Article 160(2)),[1] "natives" of Sarawak (161A(6)(a)),[2] and "natives" of Sabah (Article 161A(6)(b)).[2] Definitions of bumiputra in public use vary among different institutions, organizations, and government departments and agencies.


Examples of such policies include:
Companies listed on the Kuala Lumpur Stock Exchange (Bursa Saham Kuala Lumpur) must have 30% bumiputra ownership of equity to satisfy listing requirements. Foreign companies that operate in Malaysia also must adhere to this requirement.
For a limited period, a certain percentage of new housing in any development has to be sold to bumiputra owners. Housing developers are required to provide a minimum 7% discount to bumiputra buyers of these lots. This is required regardless of the income level of the potential buyer. Remaining unsold houses after a given time period are allowed to be sold to non-bumi if the developer proves attempts have been made to fulfill the requirement. There is no bumiputra discount on existing housing.
A basket of government-run (and profit-guaranteed) mutual funds are available for purchase by bumiputra buyers only. The Amanah Saham Nasional (ASN) has return rates approximately 3 to 5 times that of local commercial banks.
Many government-tendered projects require that companies submitting tenders be bumiputra owned. This requirement has led to non-bumiputras teaming up with bumiputra companies to obtain projects, in a practice known as "Ali Baba". Ali, the bumiputra, is included solely to satisfy this requirement, and Baba (the non-bumiputra) pays Ali a certain sum in exchange.
Projects were earmarked for Malay contractors to enable them to gain expertise in various fields.
Approved Permits (APs) for automobiles preferentially allow bumiputra to import vehicles. Automotive companies wishing to bring in cars need to have an AP to do so. APs were originally created to allow bumiputra participation in the automotive industry, since they were issued to companies with at least 70% bumiputra ownership. In 2004, The Edge (a business newspaper) estimated that APs were worth approximately RM 35,000 each. They also estimated that the late Nasimuddin Amin, the former chairman of the Naza group, received 6,387 in 2003, making him the largest single recipient of APs. More than 12,200 APs were issued in 2003. In addition to APs, foreign car marquees are required to pay between 140% to 300% import duty.
 

niharjhatn

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why dont you share with us what you know about malay and chinese ethnic issue?
See some of Ray's posts.

From what I understand talking to people from the major ethnicities' from the region, Chinese feel that they have contributed the most to Malaysia, feel that they do not wield enough power in Malaysia compared to ethnic Malays, whom they see as comparatively lazy and leeching off the successes that the Chinese have made. This is largely exacerbated by the policies favouring ethnic Malays over others, creating a fertile ground for ethnic tension.

It is tough to document cases of racism - you really have to meet with people from the region and discuss it with them. Even searching online will help you find umpteen cases of racism - going both ways, but it is hard to quantify the racism.
 

amoy

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largely exacerbated by the policies favouring ethnic Malays over others, creating a fertile ground for ethnic tension.
how do u comment on Bumiputra, which is preferential for the 'majority', while discriminatory against the minorities in economy and education? is it a symptom of 'racism'?
 
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JustForLaughs

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See some of Ray's posts.

From what I understand talking to people from the major ethnicities' from the region, Chinese feel that they have contributed the most to Malaysia, feel that they do not wield enough power in Malaysia compared to ethnic Malays, whom they see as comparatively lazy and leeching off the successes that the Chinese have made. This is largely exacerbated by the policies favouring ethnic Malays over others, creating a fertile ground for ethnic tension.

It is tough to document cases of racism - you really have to meet with people from the region and discuss it with them. Even searching online will help you find umpteen cases of racism - going both ways, but it is hard to quantify the racism.
i am not completely ignorant of this issue, but i wanted some other views. im well aware of the anti Chinese riots. however, it happen in Indonesia as well. possibly Philippines. Chinese economic dominance in South East Asia before the Asian Financial Crisis (and even to some extent now still) is well known. the natives got jealous, resented it and rioted. that is what i know.
 

JustForLaughs

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Interesting, what?

Let's introspect.
there is some valid points in whoever wrote that, but most of it is wrong.

1. the defeats of Song to Jin and Ming to Manchu are severely misunderstood. note that it was Mongol Yuan that defeated the Southern Song, not the Jin, who by that time had already fallen to the Mongol Song alliance. Also:




岳飛


A northern Chinese from a humble background, he participated in the Song's attempt to capture the Sixteen Prefectures in 1122 and defended Kaifeng after the Jurchen withdrew in 1127. Yue moved south with the other loyalist forces in 1129, and took an active part in during the Jurchen advance back across the Yangtze that year. He continued to advance in rank, and to increase the size of his army as he repeatedly led successful offensives into north China and put down bandits within Song territory. Several other generals were also successful against the Jurchen, and their combined efforts secured the survival of the dynasty. Yue, like most of them, was committed to recapturing north China.

Stone Lake: The Poetry of Fan Chengda 1126-1193 states, "...Yue Fei 岳飛 ([1103]-1141)...repelled the enemy assaults in 1133 and 1134, until in 1135 the now confident Song army was in a position to recover all of north China from the Jin ... [In 1140,] Yue Fei initiated a general counterattack against the Jin, defeating one enemy after another until he bivouacked within range of the Northern Song dynasty's old capital city, Kaifeng, in preparation for the final assault against the enemy. Yet in the same year Qin [Hui] ordered Yue Fei to abandon his campaign, and in 1141 Yue Fei was summoned back to the Southern Song Dynasty capital. It is believed that the emperor then ordered Yue Fei to be hanged."[38]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yue_Fei



袁崇煥


Yuan's military career reached its height when he defeated Nurhaci and the Manchurian army in the first Battle of Ningyuan. Nurhaci's son and successor, Huáng Táijí, was defeated by him in the second Battle of Ningyuan. However, Yuan was a tragic figure, and was executed by his emperor under false charges which Huang Taiji deliberately planted against him.

Huang Taiji publicly stated that he would never be able to beat Yuan in a fair game, thus, making the Chongzhen Emperor kill him was the only method to get rid of him. Just as the message of Yuan's death reach Huang Taiji's ears, he changed his state name from Jin to Qing and proclaimed himself Emperor Qing Taizong. Some historical information states that Huang Taiji feared Yuan's last word stating his soul will always guard Liaodong Peninsula: As the name Chonghuan, means Undying Flames, contains the element "Fire", he put the word Qing, meaning cleanse, which contains the element "Water", to overcome it; however, even if this is the case, the main reason is probably because the "Ming" of the Ming Dynasty contains the element "Fire" itself.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuan_Chonghuan

Chinese history is marred with traitors and executions of the ones who were obliterating the enemies. sad, but true.



2. bringing up the Japanese is pointless. for a country that modernized and attacked during a Civil War they never had any real hope of actually conquering and ruling China.


3. the person who wrote that just seems bitter against Chinese officials and corruption. although a random no author rant is not something i would take seriously if i were you.


4. i dont advocate for arrogance. but considering Tibetan, Mongol, Manchu, Uighur etc. were all once enemies of Han and looking at them now, i can say we have dealt with our historic enemies just fine.


5. if the whole point of these posts is to prove Chinese are arrogant or are racist theres no need.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinocentrism

we are well aware of all sorts of mentalities.
 
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Ray

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Chinese history is marred with traitors and executions of the ones who were obliterating the enemies. sad, but true.
It is a matter of perception.

Every race can claim the same to justify.

Nonetheless, thanks for the details and links.
 

alamshi

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very interesting. all our chinese need to introspect. actually we had a lot of opportunities to be super power in history. however, due to various reasons, we missed that. right now is golden time for us chinese to go for that! let us look at things from broad long-term aspect of view, then everything will be all right.

there is some valid points in whoever wrote that, but most of it is wrong.

1. the defeats of Song to Jin and Ming to Manchu are severely misunderstood. note that it was Mongol Yuan that defeated the Southern Song, not the Jin, who by that time had already fallen to the Mongol Song alliance. Also:




岳飛


A northern Chinese from a humble background, he participated in the Song's attempt to capture the Sixteen Prefectures in 1122 and defended Kaifeng after the Jurchen withdrew in 1127. Yue moved south with the other loyalist forces in 1129, and took an active part in during the Jurchen advance back across the Yangtze that year. He continued to advance in rank, and to increase the size of his army as he repeatedly led successful offensives into north China and put down bandits within Song territory. Several other generals were also successful against the Jurchen, and their combined efforts secured the survival of the dynasty. Yue, like most of them, was committed to recapturing north China.

Stone Lake: The Poetry of Fan Chengda 1126-1193 states, "...Yue Fei 岳飛 ([1103]-1141)...repelled the enemy assaults in 1133 and 1134, until in 1135 the now confident Song army was in a position to recover all of north China from the Jin ... [In 1140,] Yue Fei initiated a general counterattack against the Jin, defeating one enemy after another until he bivouacked within range of the Northern Song dynasty's old capital city, Kaifeng, in preparation for the final assault against the enemy. Yet in the same year Qin [Hui] ordered Yue Fei to abandon his campaign, and in 1141 Yue Fei was summoned back to the Southern Song Dynasty capital. It is believed that the emperor then ordered Yue Fei to be hanged."[38]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yue_Fei



袁崇煥


Yuan's military career reached its height when he defeated Nurhaci and the Manchurian army in the first Battle of Ningyuan. Nurhaci's son and successor, Huáng Táijí, was defeated by him in the second Battle of Ningyuan. However, Yuan was a tragic figure, and was executed by his emperor under false charges which Huang Taiji deliberately planted against him.

Huang Taiji publicly stated that he would never be able to beat Yuan in a fair game, thus, making the Chongzhen Emperor kill him was the only method to get rid of him. Just as the message of Yuan's death reach Huang Taiji's ears, he changed his state name from Jin to Qing and proclaimed himself Emperor Qing Taizong. Some historical information states that Huang Taiji feared Yuan's last word stating his soul will always guard Liaodong Peninsula: As the name Chonghuan, means Undying Flames, contains the element "Fire", he put the word Qing, meaning cleanse, which contains the element "Water", to overcome it; however, even if this is the case, the main reason is probably because the "Ming" of the Ming Dynasty contains the element "Fire" itself.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuan_Chonghuan

Chinese history is marred with traitors and executions of the ones who were obliterating the enemies. sad, but true.



2. bringing up the Japanese is pointless. for a country that modernized and attacked during a Civil War they never had any real hope of actually conquering and ruling China.


3. the person who wrote that just seems bitter against Chinese officials and corruption. although a random no author rant is not something i would take seriously if i were you.


4. i dont advocate for arrogance. but considering Tibetan, Mongol, Manchu, Uighur etc. were all once enemies of Han and looking at them now, i can say we have dealt with our historic enemies just fine.


5. if the whole point of these posts is to prove Chinese are arrogant or are racist theres no need.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinocentrism

we are well aware of all sorts of mentalities.
 

JustForLaughs

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very interesting. all our chinese need to introspect. actually we had a lot of opportunities to be super power in history. however, due to various reasons, we missed that. right now is golden time for us chinese to go for that! let us look at things from broad long-term aspect of view, then everything will be all right.
i personally do not think it is in Chinese nature to be a super power, as represented by the Soviets at their height and the United States.


maybe things have changed, but typically when Chinese get ahead we become very introverted. the Ming navy (headed by the famous Zheng He) was a prime example. the Imperial Ming Fleet was not for exploration (they have been there. Zheng He was muslim, they travelled to Mecca). it was not for trade:

"in the fifteenth century all the world coveted Chinese silks and porcelain; China had no need to seek out customers - China's customers came to them. For another, in the Confucian world order, merchants were considered to be among the lowliest members of society. Confucius saw merchants and other middlemen as parasites, profiting on the work of the farmers and artisans who actually produced trade goods. An imperial fleet would not sully itself with such a lowly matter as trade."

http://asianhistory.about.com/od/china/f/zhenghefaq.htm



what was the point of this fleet?

it was just to show the superiority of the Ming Empire. retrieving tribute from over 30 countries, as far away as East Africa. there was no wish, at all, to colonize or invade. Chinese sinocentrism has always maintained 中國 as being the center. tributaries are good. vassal states are good. but nothing like the european colonization period.

the reason the voyages were put to a stop by the succeeding emperor was because

"There were three principle reasons for this decision. First, the Yongle Emperor who sponsored Zheng He's first six voyages died in 1424. His son, the Hongle Emperor, was much more conservative and Confucianist in his thought, so he ordered the voyages stopped. (There was one last voyage under Yongle's grandson, Xuande, in 1430-33.)

In addition to the political motivation, the new emperor had a financial motivation. The treasure fleet voyages cost Ming China enormous amounts of money; since they were not trade excursions, the government recovered little of the cost. The Hongle Emperor inherited a treasury that was much emptier than it might have been, if not for his father's Indian Ocean adventures. China was self-sufficient; it didn't need anything from the Indian Ocean world, so why send out these huge fleets?

Finally, during the reigns of the Hongle and Xuande Emperors, Ming China faced a growing threat to its land borders in the west. The Mongols and other Central Asian peoples made increasingly bold raids on western China, forcing the Ming rulers to concentrate their attention and their resources on securing the country's inland borders."


http://asianhistory.about.com/od/china/f/zhenghefaq.htm





dont even get me started on the Qing Dynasty. the letter Emperor Qianlong sent to King George clearly show this mentality as well.

http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/core9/phalsall/texts/qianlong.html

some highlighted parts that support what my point is.

"You, O King, live beyond the confines of many seas, nevertheless, impelled by your humble desire to partake of the benefits of our civilisation, you have dispatched a mission respectfully bearing your memorial. Your Envoy has crossed the seas and paid his respects at my Court on the anniversary of my birthday."

"Moreover, our Celestial dynasty possesses vast territories, and tribute missions from the dependencies are provided for by the Department for Tributary States, which ministers to their wants and exercises strict control over their movements."

"Our dynasty's majestic virtue has penetrated unto every country under Heaven, and Kings of all nations have offered their costly tribute by land and sea. As your Ambassador can see for himself, we possess all things. I set no value on objects strange or ingenious, and have no use for your country's manufactures. This then is my answer to your request to appoint a representative at my Court, a request contrary to our dynastic usage, which would only result in inconvenience to yourself. "






so this is why i think China will never be a super power like the United States. but things change and we now live in a very connected globalized world. it is not in anyone's interest, even China, to cut itself off again. so maybe things will be different this time.
 
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Ray

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"Confucius saw merchants and other middlemen as parasites, profiting on the work of the farmers and artisans who actually produced trade goods. An imperial fleet would not sully itself with such a lowly matter as trade."
French also derided the merchant class. They called them Petit Bourgeoisie.
 

jazzguy

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India uses the strategy of hating China to gain benefit from superpowers. In 50's, when Soviet Union split with China, India created border clashes with China to gain Soviet Union technology and military assistance. Nowadays, India wanted to gain US technology and military assistance they started creating this hating strategy again.
 

Ray

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India uses the strategy of hating China to gain benefit from superpowers. In 50's, when Soviet Union split with China, India created border clashes with China to gain Soviet Union technology and military assistance. Nowadays, India wanted to gain US technology and military assistance they started creating this hating strategy again.
Are you suggesting that the superpowers also hates China wherein they assist India?
 

SHASH2K2

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India uses the strategy of hating China to gain benefit from superpowers. In 50's, when Soviet Union split with China, India created border clashes with China to gain Soviet Union technology and military assistance. Nowadays, India wanted to gain US technology and military assistance they started creating this hating strategy again.
so you mean to say that just to gain Russian weapons India Attacked china and allowed them to capture territory that was supposed to be ours. Any wise man will get weapons first and then attack . perhaps Chinese people have some different logics to reach to conclusion.
 

mrtopcopy

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guy, what daily life here tells me is quite different from what "ghost towns" googled tell you and Gorden Chang.

yes, quite of lots of houses might just "weekend/vacation house" and their hosts hardly live there except weekend/vacation. But most of those houses usually have been sold out .

In CHina, it is a quite common case that one mid-class family owns two houses,one for daily life and the other for vacation/weekend. or one is in cities and the other in their hometown.

For example, My parents usually live in Beijing with my eld brother,so their house in hometown are usally not occupied,so is it a "ghost house"?

For another example, I have bought one new house in one apartment here... there are over 600 suits of houses in the apartment. most of them were bought by those guys who work in the counties beside the city.
they just live in the houses here in weekends.
I read many comments of Mr. Badguy2000. Unfortunately, I found most of Badguy's comments are nonnutritive and filled of wrong information.

Obviously, the so-called ghost towns in China are existent, and even severe in some prefectures. Maybe those ghost towns are only existent in some inter-land cities. Maybe most of those condos have been sold out. But it is true that no people live in those apartments. The reason is that those apartments were bought buy some rich people for investments not for living. But at the same time, many poor people in China have no money to buy an apartment for living. Such phenomenon indicates that: 1) there is a huge gap between the rich and the poor, which will increase the instability of the society; 2) there is a big bubble in the real estate market in China, which is a big risk to the financial system.

I absolutely can not accept your absurd explanation of the ghost-town phenomenon.

Finally, I recommend you guys skip the comments of Mr. Badguy2000 for saving your time. I am serious.
 
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amoy

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Such phenomenon indicates that: 1) there is a huge gap between the rich and the poor, which will increase the instability of the society; 2) there is a big bubble in the real estate market in China, which is a big risk to the financial system.
so u're trying to convince Indian friends that China can't be an enemy state to India with social disparity/property bubble/financial risk?
 

Virendra

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Why is it going towards discussing Chinese ghost towns and real estate?? :)
 

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