why , IAF never did air excercise with Russian air force

[keshtopatel]

It would not matter UN and the West did not prevent 4 India-Pak wars so SCO probably probably could not be any worst , they may want this setup to guarantee USA/NATO are permanently squeezed out of Asia, If India is a member and Pakistan is not they could play a bigger spoiler by still being tool to bring USA back into Asia.

Pakistan has lot of quid pro quo with its all weather friend China, whithout whom they can not move an inch. China had warned Pakistan to stay away from helping and harbouring Uighiri Chinese Muslims, and they meekly complied. China had kept 900 millions in escrow accounts (in favour of Pakistan during its financial crisis). China has supplied Missiles (M-11), Nuclear design device(Lop Nor) to Pakistan, Nuclear reactors, Ring Magnets. In the Process, Pakistan has Given Pakistani occupied Kashmir territory to China, through which Karakoram Highway is Built. Pakistan had given a copy of Stinger missile to China back during eighties, and now China has reversed engineered it - ANZA-II - which Pakistan produces, it was used in Kargil which downed two of our air assets.

Its Mili bhagat of deadly nature against India, kind of partners in crime.

There are plenty more things that dont come to my mind right now. But you know what I am getting into.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

I know KP but this will continue regardless , what is the solution to this ?our leaders had no foresight to see all this decades ago ;the policy of giving up territory as appeasement is haunting the present leaders.

 

[EagleOne]

Russia supplies more than 70 percent of India's military hardware.
So If Indian Naval arm conducts joint exercise then it clearly means your arguments (of Skill issue) is not good enough!

exercises(military) -NATO
Exercises are an important tool through which the Alliance tests and validates its
concepts, procedures, systems, and tactics.
Exercises also build interoperability and contribute to defence reform.

comes under skills and interrelated/interlinked

skill - an ability that has been acquired by training -(so we are operating migs and sukois built and trained by them)

my first post says that
this may be because, we mostly use their fighters and we are first trained by them ,so the gaining skills will less from each other .
because the exerises are mainly focused on gaining skills, increases the professional capabilities of fighters(pilots).

% of russian ships in indian navy
indian navy equation is not 70 % russain military hardware
out of 171 ships of indian navy -44 ships are of russian .......remining for various other countriesso russians part is slighty more then 25%....of indian navy

out of 241 aircarfts of indian navy -54 are russian it is less then 25%
wll some of the hardware in other ships also russian....but using them with differnt systems will change the procedures and tactics
and we are mostly self trained in navy...

straw man argument::happy_8:
in that case you should have explained why exercises are done if i am wrong and my logic is not correct -simply disagreeing will not do the job

 

[luckyy]

One reason as strange as it sounds maybe Russian fear of revealing the differences in the warplanes they export and the ones they use for themselves?

the other reason could be that russian wouldn't had any intrest to test their own fighter plane in indian hand , ...

i guess we will see an annual air excersice between IAF and russians once we choose a amarican fighter in mmrca..

 

[neo29]

the other reason could be that russian wouldn't had any intrest to test their own fighter plane in indian hand , ...

i guess we will see an annual air excersice between IAF and russians once we choose a amarican fighter in mmrca..

Exactly ... Our whole fleet is Russian and exercises are conducted among different fighters.

 

[pmaitra]

this may be because, we mostly use their fighters and we are first trained by them ,so the gaining skills will less from each other .
because the exercises are mainly focused on gaining skills, increases the professional capabilities of fighters.

That is a very sound logic and I agree.

I would also like to point out that there have been exercises that can be loosely classified as air-exercises where Indian and Russian paratroopers and aircraft were involved.

Evidence (Pskov Region, Russian Federation):

 

[keshtopatel]

below is the % of russian ships in indian navy
but indian navy equation is not 70 % russain military hardware
out of 171 ships of indian navy -44 ships are of russian .......remining for various other countries its slighty more then 25%....of indian navy
out of 241 aircarfts of indian navy -54 are russian it is less then 25%
wll some of the hardware in other ships also russian....but using them with differnt systems will change the procedures and tactics
and we are mostly self trained in navy..

It is well known fact that Russian Shipyards are surviving because of Indian Navy, Be it Akula, Vikramdatya, Talwar, Tabar and what not. Check the dollar wise recent acuisition from Russia.

On a conservative estimate accordingly, Russia has already won nearly $ 20 billion worth of orders and commitments from India for its aircraft and helicopters. (Sale of other systems for the Army and Navy, like the aircraft carrier Gorshkov for about $ 2.8 billion, ships, submarines, T 90 tanks and missiles etc, are not included in this estimate for Indo-Russian defence trade).

Not only that, but look at the following:

The construction of a training centre for the Indian military in Sosnovy Bor, 70 kilometers west of St. Petersburg, confirms RussiaÂ’s intentions to lease nuclear submarines to India

Above institute is going to train 300 Indian Nuclear submariners (good for four Nuke Submarines), and the money came from India of course.

Nobody will sell you an Aircraft Carriers, Nuclear submarines, Fast and accurate missiles like Moskit and sunburn - Russia does!

Here is a 5 days fresh news:

Russia supplies more than 70 percent of India's military hardware.

India, Russia to build military transport planes - The Economic Times

 

[pmaitra]

These are jt special forces exercises not jt af exercises.

Please read my comment again. I said 'loosely classified', 'air-exercise', 'aircraft', 'paratroopers'. I did not mention 'Air-Force'. It is not mandatory for Air-Force to participate for an exercise to be an air-exercise. As long as aircraft are used, it is an air-exercise. Even if we have an exercise where only the Navy participates and the Air-Force is kept out, then the very usage of Aircraft carriers will qualify the term air-exercise.

The definition of air-exercise does not limit only to Air-Force fighter jets practising shooting each other down. It encompasses everything that has to do with air and aircraft.

Please do correct me if I am wrong.

 

[EagleOne]

It is well known fact that Russian Shipyards are surviving because of Indian Navy, Be it Akula, Vikramdatya, Talwar, Tabar and what not. Check the dollar wise recent acuisition from Russia.
Not only that, but look at the following:
Above institute is going to train 300 Indian Nuclear submariners (good for four Nuke Submarines), and the money came from India of course.
Nobody will sell you an Aircraft Carriers, Nuclear submarines, Fast and accurate missiles like Moskit and sunburn - Russia does!
Here is a 5 days fresh news:
India, Russia to build military transport planes - The Economic Times

Russian Shipyards are surviving because of Indian Navy -true
but indian navy is not surviving because of russian shipyards

i am saying about the past why naval exercises taked place why not air ?
most of them u are talking are for future fleet not the present fleet

the ships participated in INDRA are remodelled in india or built in india ships or
ex- ins delhi in 2009
Khukri class corvettes-2007
and so on

see ins talwar paticipated exercises with US navy and french navy but not with russian ...

so in exercises we use other then russian build/remodelled to indian requirements with additional western systems

 

[keshtopatel]

Russian Shipyards are surviving because of Indian Navy -true
but indian navy is not surviving because of russian shipyards

i am saying about the past why naval exercises taked place why not air ?
most of them u are talking are for future fleet not the present fleet

the ships participated in INDRA are remodelled in india or built in india ships or
ex- ins delhi in 2009
Khukri class corvettes-2007
and so on
see ins talwar paticipated exercises with US navy and french navy but not with russian ...
so in exercises we use other then russian build/remodelled to indian requirements with additional western systems

The fact remains tall, that Indian mariners will have to meet Russian Armada, and get accustomed to their new warfare systems and techniques, also its a inter-operatablity issue. Indians can bringing anything they want, but they have Russian naval forces to work with and learn whatever they can. So please dont tell me Indian Navy did it because we have less Russian warships (something thats absurd logic to begin with)

Armed forces of a nation normally agree with such manuvers with friendly countries, or in other case, its a government to government bilateral issue. So it works both ways, takes two to tango.

 

[EagleOne]

The fact remains tall, that Indian mariners will have to meet Russian Armada, and get accustomed to their new warfare systems and techniques, also its a inter-operatablity issue. Indians can bringing anything they want, but they have Russian naval forces to work with and learn whatever they can. So please dont tell me Indian Navy did it because we have less Russian warships (something thats absurd logic to begin with)

Armed forces of a nation normally agree with such manuvers with friendly countries, or in other case, its a government to government bilateral issue. So it works both ways, takes two to tango.

thats what i called improving skills

we have less Russian war ships : So Russian will have more opportunity to learn from other western stuff that India acquired which servers mutual interest(but in case of air we dont have much options to show)

Indian Naval arm conducts joint exercise then it clearly means your arguments (of Skill issue) is not good enough!

exercises are done to improve the skills and capabilitites what i am saying from first post

 

[keshtopatel]

exercises are done to improve the skills and capabilitites what i am saying from first post

And I debunked your arguments, by telling you, If Navy can, Airforce can.

Exercise does not mandate class of armaments-weapons-platforms.........So dont tell me Indian navy has less russian ship or submarines - This is not relative to joint exercise.

No wonder Air force will meet its Rusian counter part on this next year, proof-source for which was given earlier.

So ?

 

[EagleOne]

And I debunked your arguments, by telling you, If Navy can, Airforce can.

Exercise does not mandate class of armaments-weapons-platforms.........So dont tell me Indian navy has less russian ship or submarines - This is not relative to joint exercise.
No wonder Air force will meet its Rusian counter part on this next year, proof-source for which was given earlier.
So ?

armaments-weapon -platforms- will describe the tactics and strategies We have to use.

so thats why in exercises we are not using Russian build ships but others ships which are remodelled or brought from out side or indigenously built with western araments

yes u gave proof of source it says it may be take in 2011-2012

airforce exercise may be conducted after induction of mmrca not before that

 

[keshtopatel]

armaments-weapon -platforms- will describe the tactics and strategies We have to use. so thats why in exercises we are not using Russian build ships but others ships which are remodelled or brought from out side or indigenously built with western araments

Selection of perticular naval platforms for joint exercise is a choice and not a mandate.

Here is more for you to make up percentage wise mind something you have been refusing all along with your half cooked numbers on Indian Navy numbers percentage wise:

Almost 70% of the Indian weaponry is of Soviet and Russian origin with the navy almost entirely dependent on Russian weaponry for its warships, submarines and aircraft.

yes u gave proof of source it says it may be take in 2011-2012

airforce exercise may be conducted after induction of mmrca not before that

How do you expect MMRCA to fly next year with Indian Air force? Dont you think you are going bit too far here - once again?

If the joint AF exercise is slated for 2011 - What the heck MMRCA has to do here?

Who has put such a weird condition of MMRCA in the joint Air Force exercise?

Balderdash!

 

[EagleOne]

Selection of perticular naval platforms for joint exercise is a choice and not a mandate.
Here is more for you to make up percentage wise mind something you have been refusing all along with your half cooked numbers on Indian Navy numbers percentage wise:
How do you expect MMRCA to fly next year with Indian Air force? Dont you think you are going bit too far here - once again?
If the joint AF exercise is slated for 2011 - What the heck MMRCA has to do here?
Who has put such a weird condition of MMRCA in the joint Force exercise?
Balderdash!

:happy_8: :happy_8:
show me the proof that i am wrong with the number in present fleet

and give me a valid reason why russia and india not conducted airforce exercise untill now live 2011 exercise apart


see it 2011-2012 exercise still on papers not yet approved.lets wait and we dont have any more info on that

 

[keshtopatel]

show me the proof that i am wrong with the number in present fleet

I have given the proof, debunking your following figures and numbers:
Here you say:

% of russian ships in indian navy
indian navy equation is not 70 % russain military hardware

Here is once more:

Almost 70% of the Indian weaponry is of Soviet and Russian origin with the navy almost entirely dependent on Russian weaponry for its warships, submarines and aircraft.

You said:

and give me a valid reason why russia and india not conducted airforce exercise untill now live 2011 exercise apart

I would not speculate on above and not even bother about it, just because its in the offing next year.

see it 2011-2012 exercise still on papers not yet approved.lets wait and we dont have any more info on that

Agreement comes first, and it is always a piece of paper anyway!
Just as drawing (paper) comes first, then cometh the actual weapon!

 

[EagleOne]

Almost 70% of the Indian weaponry is of Soviet and Russian origin with the navy almost entirely dependent on Russian weaponry for its warships, submarines and aircraft.-proof of this statment -source (dedicated)

i can give proof for each and every number i have given about the fleet from indian navy offical website. and their country of origin with what weapons they are fitted with
this will show u how much our navy depends on russian
Indian Navy
Ships of the Indian Navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

still officals are not sure that it will be approved how can u say it is next year (if and buts)
yeah paper dawing is first step ..we cant say the result just by looking in to papers

 

[keshtopatel]

Almost 70% of the Indian weaponry is of Soviet and Russian origin with the navy almost entirely dependent on Russian weaponry for its warships, submarines and aircraft.-proof of this statment -source (dedicated)

..:: India Strategic ::.. Italy's Finmeccanica looks to expand base in India

i can give proof for each and every number i have given about the fleet from indian navy offical website. and their country of origin with what weapons they are fitted with
this will show u how much our navy depends on russian
Indian Navy
Ships of the Indian Navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Your Wiki source points its Russia-Soviet Union with the most naval arsenal, If you exclude survey ships and tankers, and some which are yet to come. While Indian Navy does not say anything on Nationality of manufactured-built war platforms.

still officals are not sure that it will be approved how can u say it is next year (if and buts)
yeah paper dawing is first step ..we cant say the result just by looking in to papers

I dont say that - it is the credeble source that says the following:

The proposal has already been submitted for consideration to the governments of the two states

Why would it be rejected, knowing that both countries are ok with Naval Exercise?
Any rational person would agree with above.

 

[Sridhar]

Here is a Russian view why they haven't taken place. Hope it is not a re-post .

Sunday, September 12, 2010

Indo-Russian air forces exercises


It seems to me that despite all voices of ill wishers the prospects of cooperation between Russia and India are sound as usually and the joint military exercises are planned again. This time it will be the air forces exercises. 'The common exercises will certainly be hold during next years' - said Ru AF chief Alexander Zelin after his visit in India, RIAN new agency reported 10.09.11.

The proposal has already been submitted for consideration to the governments of the two states. The joint exercises, if approved, may take place in 2011 or 2012.

- First time Russian pilots will be able to compare their skill with the famous Indian aces. Till now it took years for Ru AF to recovery the level of training after 90th/early 00 fall in financing. It's the most logical cause why such exercises were not occurred till now.
Defunct Humanity: Indo-Russian air forces exercises

 

[keshtopatel]

Here is a Russian view why they haven't taken place. Hope it is not a re-post .

So its a paucity of funds, nothing else!

Thanks for above though!