why hasnt india inducted a high quality apc/ifv

ace009

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we follow Russian weapon system that is why we have less weight IFV,, BTW our MBT is only 46T, Now their is competition for IFV, all public and private players with JV are invited(this is for the first time) lets see what happens hope we will get heavy protection vehicle with modern gun and other fighting capabilities.
Actually, the armor doctrine between Russian and western systems are very different. Russians believed in lighter and more agile MBTs and IFVs, which is why the Russian MBTs are lighter, with less armor and the IFVs are lighter with less power. However, as has been proven since the Afgan war, then in Chechnya, Serbian war etc, new generation manpads and attack helos can wreck havoc on lighter armors like the T-72 and even the T-90. Which is why the T-90S bought by IA have more armor than the regular T-90s. Which is also why when IA specified for Arjun armor, the tank became 58 Tons.
Similarly for Russian APCs/ IFVs like BMP2 to the armor does not offer enough protection from modern armor piercing guns, RPGs etc.
Which is why Abhay was designed to have heavier armor than the BMP2.
 

pack leader

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i am not trying to insult any one
it's just a thread my thread you dont like it feel free to ignore it
 

sayareakd

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great an obsolete vehicle with an obsolete gun :rolleyes:
yeah but think of chines border with India mountain and heavy vehicle cannot go far, small gun is helpful, specially if we can some in large number. Just think we dont have big guns.
 

bhramos

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so can"t come up with a good answer start throwing insults very bad move
stop being butthurt and learn from others it my help you in the end :confused::confused::confused::confused:
sorry mate, if you felt i insulted you, pardon me. i apologize,
i am just talking the truth

right from the thread why hasnt india inducted a high quality apc/ifv
i felt you like insulting IA

India has BMP-I n II's ...
aren't they AC/IFV for you???
 

ace009

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yeah but think of chines border with India mountain and heavy vehicle cannot go far, small gun is helpful, specially if we can some in large number. Just think we dont have big guns.
I think BMP2s are good for mountainous terrain, but for Pak border IA should definitely have the Abhay up and running.

Why is it still not ready I have no idea - the project started in 2001. 10 yrs in it is still "in development" typical of Dodo!
 

bhramos

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i am not trying to insult any one
it's just a thread my thread you dont like it feel free to ignore it
well thanks.
if you cant take this beat and answer the queries of members, you may not be able to survive in any of the defence forums.
again i appolozige,
well i am a fan of Israel, Small Country with Huge brains,
but thread is missleading why hasnt india inducted a high quality apc/ifv
 

pack leader

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sorry mate, if you felt i insulted you, pardon me. i apologize,
i am just talking the truth

right from the thread why hasnt india inducted a high quality apc/ifv
i felt you like insulting IA


India has BMP-I n II's ...
aren't they AC/IFV for you???
I will be honest you have a great air force your navy is second only to America
but your ground forces are in pretty bad shape
you lack descent artillery and modern apc\ifv
this is the truth and you know it don't be offended it wont help anyone .
don't forget as a sympathetic outsider my perspective is better because i am not moved by emotion
and no as mentioned earlier bmp 1 and 2 are mobile coffins that you must stop using
 

sayareakd

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Why is it still not ready I have no idea - the project started in 2001. 10 yrs in it is still "in development" typical of Dodo!
DRDO only develop, it does not produce its OFB, which produce it only when order is receive from IA. BTW Abhay was only tech demo and DRDO has demonstrated its capabilities.
 

p2prada

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@pack leader

You are right in some aspects. The army is indeed in a bad shape when it comes to IFVs and artillery. The artillery is the worst. Nevertheless, we have set up a plan for everything.

The BMP fits all our current roles at a cheap rate, replacing them immediately is out of the question. The Army has called for a tender in developing a new generation IFV in India itself, perhaps with a foreign developer. So all our future needs will be taken care of by this development.

Networking is happening as we speak with satellite launches and new optic fibre networks. The first prototype of the F-INSAS system should be ready by 2014.

Army has already asked for development of a new generation tank by 2020 to replace the T-72s and T-90s.

Artillery is the worst as we don't have a decent indigenous program. Our foreign inductions are stuck in bureaucratic red tape. Only our rocket forces seem to be doing well with inductions of Smerch, Pinaka and perhaps Pinaka 2 in the near future.

The Army is planning to induct over a 100 helicopter gunships as well.

Since our army is huge, expect all of this to take at least 5 to 10 years to be fully deployed.
 

bhramos

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I will be honest you have a great air force your navy is second only to America
but your ground forces are in pretty bad shape
you lack descent artillery and modern apc\ifv
this is the truth and you know it don't be offended it wont help anyone .
don't forget as a sympathetic outsider my perspective is better because i am not moved by emotion
and no as mentioned earlier bmp 1 and 2 are mobile coffins that you must stop using
IA is already in process of replacing them by US Strikers [may be], IA is in process of modernisation,
so at present BMP-II are best, IA still uses Soviet strategies in case of war.....
until we modern APC/IFV's BMP-II's are best, if we confirm, they are death coffins, it degrade moral of a soldier,
as you know Indian procurement is too slow, [except Israel issue]
already their is a tender going on for it........
 

pack leader

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p2prada
I completely agree with you
if there is a proses in the works to replace bmp that is a good first step
but why is every program taking so long
:confused::confused::confused::confused:
 

pack leader

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strykers are nice but they are of a different class
too light to be a multipurpose system
in that class the euro makers are superior to Americans
the Germans and the finish have cheaper better protected system
but still a pretty good choice
 

p2prada

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p2prada
I completely agree with you
if there is a proses in the works to replace bmp that is a good first step
but why is every program taking so long
:confused::confused::confused::confused:
Its not yet been launched. But they are expecting a prototype by 2017 and a production model by 2020, so it matches the FMBT induction.
 

ace009

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IA is already in process of replacing them by US Strikers [may be], IA is in process of modernisation,
so at present BMP-II are best, IA still uses Soviet strategies in case of war.....
until we modern APC/IFV's BMP-II's are best, if we confirm, they are death coffins, it degrade moral of a soldier,
as you know Indian procurement is too slow, [except Israel issue]
already their is a tender going on for it........
The problem with IA procurement has to do with IA brass mentality. Firstly, they are still stuck with a Pro-soviet mindset. Soviet strategies (more about this later), soviet/ Russian weaponry + vehicles (Which is why they inducted T-90s but hesitated about Arjun MBT) and even force structure was largely based upon Soviet models. Back in the 70s and 80s such mindsets may have been OK, but in the modern day and age it only holds back the Army modernization plan.
Soviet land battle strategy was based upon the WW-2 encirclement strategy, primarily suited for the vast plains of east/ central Europe. Land forces were based upon fast moving, rugged tanks with light armor, suited for enemy-fire avoidance. MBTs (T-72 and T-90) and IFVs (BMP-1 and BMP-2) were based on this model. However, western armed forces were moving towards the idea of "surviving after being hit" and the tanks and IFVs were being designed based on this model. As a result American tanks had heavy armor on it and weighed considerably more (M60, M1 Abrams).
Shortcomings of the soviet/ Russian strategy was exposed in the 1980s in mountaineous Afghanistan where the T-72 and the T-80 were slaughtered by the Mujahideens using Manpads and RPGs. The Russian IFVs faced smilar fate too.
In the 1990s, the Russian MBTs saw action in the Chechen war. There also mountainous terrain caused the undoing of the T-80s and T-72s. Large numbers of these tanks were destroyed primarily due to inadequate armor, bad tactics and poor training.
Similarly Serbian forces took grievous losses in the hands of NATO forces due to inadequate armor of their vehicles.

For India, using Russian strategy might be OK in the deserts of Rajasthan and the plains of Punjab, although the T-90 is definitely not the best vehicle for that due to weather-control problems. But in the mountainous terrains of J&K and the northeast, neither the Russian strategy nor the T-90 will be useful.
The much-maligned yet upgraded and operational Arjun actually is a far better choice for the IA both in the deserts of Rajasthan as well as in the mountains of J&K due to it's better Armor and weather-control systems.
Similarly, the IFVs like BMP-1 and BMP-2 are not ideal for either the deserts or the mountains and should be replaced by better-armored IFVs suited to Indian conditions. Till that happens, India will be sending it's brave soldiers in harms way without adequate defense.
 

pmaitra

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India is best in tactics and won many wars with some obsolete soviet weapons, like Mig-21,29 and so on, no other country with has good history with Mig-21 n 29, it was a great success in IAF only, due its best maintainable in IAF and tactics too..
MiG-21 and MiG-29 were definitely not obsolete upto 1972 and MiG-29 is definitely not obsolete today. You should have cited the Gnat. I'm afraid yours' were poor examples.
 

pankaj nema

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In 4 years time India will be a 2 TRILLION dollar economy BUT IAF will still have MIG 21 and MIG 27 .

Which other 2 trillion economy does that ?

We must be absolutely sure about one thing .Our defence need are INFINITE and our resources are limited

So priorities have to be set and compromises have to be made

BMP 2 might not be the best but it is OK for our needs

IA will get a better IFV /APC but just like everything else it will take time
 

pankaj nema

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Defence equipment bought in 80s and 90s was basically low cost , low tech but served our purpose given the equipment of our adversaries which was similar

Only after the year 2000 ie in the last 10 years the financial position has become better

But armed forces cannot throw out everything immediately because a lot of the equipment has still got a lot of useful life left
 

bhramos

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p2prada
I completely agree with you
if there is a proses in the works to replace bmp that is a good first step
but why is every program taking so long
:confused::confused::confused::confused:
MoD issues further RfI on the upcoming light AFV tender

On 24 Sep 2009 the Indian Ministry of Defense issued a Request for Information (RFI) for 300 Light Tanks of which 200 will be wheeled and 100 will be tracked. It is reported that the vendors only provided generic details and so the MoD has released a follow-up RFP asking for more clarifications. The diesel-engine tanks will be deployed in High Altitude Areas above 3,000m and will be capable of operating in mountainous, semi-developed terrain. The amphibious tanks are expected to be capable of destroying bunkers and "soft-skin vehicles" at ranges up to 3km and also against attack helicopters and low flying fixed wing aircrafts.
India; MoD issues further RfI on the upcoming light AFV tender
 

bhramos

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MiG-21 and MiG-29 were definitely not obsolete upto 1972 and MiG-29 is definitely not obsolete today. You should have cited the Gnat. I'm afraid yours' were poor examples.
well i mean to say, they were also well maintained and have good track record only in IAF then other forces........
 

debasree

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i heard they choose a polish company ,what is the latest news about it.
 

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