Why dont Indians do more reverse engineering

[Energon]

Bringing home V-2 rockets and designs, and then trying to make domestic versions. If that isn't reverse engineering, then what is.

Also the entire lab and the scientists from said lab. The explanation does not get any more literal than this, and if you are still unable to discern the two examples then I'm not sure I can help you.

Cheers.

 

[Vladimir79]

Tell this to the Americans and Russians post WWII.

Using German scientists is not reverse engineering, and neither is using undeveloped technology. We created new and better wheels so to speak.

 

[Koji]

Using German scientists is not reverse engineering, and neither is using undeveloped technology. We created new and better wheels so to speak.

With time. Not right off the bat.

 

[Vladimir79]

With time. Not right off the bat.

It wasn't much time. We were flying MiG-15 only two years after the war.

 

[Known_Unknown]

It seems like some countries like pakistan and China try their best to reverse engineer even complex weapons systems with fairly good success.

The Chinese have taken it a step further by using the diaspora Chinese immigrants who are US citizens working for major US defense firms as a major source of technical espionage. The number of Chinese American scientists busted for transfering American classified technology is quite high. That's only the tip of the iceberg....who knows how many are still peddling secrets who have not been caught. Even when they are caught...its very hard to prove the case.

India on the other hand does not seem to be very interested with reverse engineering, but more so because they want to develop everything themselves.
Reverse engineering is a great way to close the gap on the learning curve that can take decades.

Why cant India take the same route ??

I suspect that it is due to a combination of Gandhian morality and Nehruvian self-sufficiency. Unlike other countries, India has never signed an agreement and then broken it. We'd rather refuse to sign an agreement up front (eg. NPT, CTBT), than sign it and violate its clauses like the P5. Same applies to agreements about armament technology transfer.

 

[deltacamelately]

With time. Not right off the bat.

Koji,
You require time to fine tune any given tecgnology, acquired or moduled.
That the Yanks and the Russians gained a lot, both from the German's talent, experience and R&D is beyond doubt. The assertion that this was a case of direct reverse engineering is complete hogwash. India also gained substantially from the German designer Kurt Tank's experience in the development of the HF-25 Marut, but that's called hiring talent. What China does can not be termed hiring talent or experience, its PLAIN reverse engineering.

 

[F-14]

well said...however, many people still insist that j11b=J11=Su27 ,because they look similar.

it is not that they look it is just a Drangonized Su-27K double setter
with the Following

An indigenous multifunctional pulse-Doppler fire-control radar reportedly capable of tracking 6~8 targets and engaging 4 of them simultaneously;
An indigenous digital flight-control system;
A Chinese copy of the Russian OEPS-27 electro-optic search and tracking system;
A strapdown INS/GPS navigation system;
A ‘glass’ cockpit featuring four colour multifunctional displays (MFD) and a wide-angle holographic head-up display (HUD);

 

[mattster]

Forget about J-11 and less prominent projects.

When China launched it first man in Space....I saw some pictures on the web of the Chinese manned module. I was shocked that it looked almost like a carbon copy of the early Soviet Soyuz manned modules.

The Chinese to their credit are extremely pragmatic by nature. As Mao himself famously once said - "It doesnt matter if the cat is black or white, as long as it catches the rat".

This is what I call "pragmatism". When the Chinese realized that they could not compete in the globalized economy without switching to a capitalist model - Deng Xiao Peng promptly dumped the entire socialist model in favor of a capitalist model, while keeping the socialist political system. This was a huge change, but they had the "balls and the pragmatism" to do it.

India on the other hand waited for 20 years after China liberalized their economy to open up theirs - credit Manmohan singh for doing that.
Why did it take India 20 years to make the change - my answer is dumb old politicians who are simply incompetent,corrupt, and clueless.

But I digress.....India with its huge expatriate engineering population should be able to reverse engineer select defense related technologies by leveraging the diaspora's expertise, and also copying ideas. I understand that there are risks in this strategy but if you spend enough dollars on foreign military purchases.....then you have the leverage to bootleg some of those complex systems even if your foreign partners get mad at you.

Trying to build a LCA from scratch by engineering every single component is nuts. Maybe they should have bought a small squadron of F-16s 20 years ago from the US, and taken one of those F-16 completely apart down to the nuts and bolts. I'm not an expert, but it may have saved them a couple of years.

 

[ppgj]

India on the other hand waited for 20 years after China liberalized their economy to open up theirs - credit Manmohan singh for doing that.
Why did it take India 20 years to make the change - my answer is dumb old politicians who are simply incompetent and corrupt and clueless.

'cos of which india did not suffer much in the depression that happened a few months back.infact the americans are thinking of regulating taking india's example.you need to free up but have to regulate too!!
as for reverse engineering as i said-as did many-you will suffer in the long term 'cos technology is not static.

 

[badguy2000]

Forget about J-11 and less prominent projects.

When China launched it first man in Space....I saw some pictures on the web of the Chinese manned module. I was shocked that it looked almost like a carbon copy of the early Soviet Soyuz manned modules.

The Chinese to their credit are extremely pragmatic by nature. As Mao himself famously once said - "It doesnt matter if the cat is black or white, as long as it catches the rat".

This is what I call "pragmatism". When the Chinese realized that they could not compete in the globalized economy without switching to a capitalist model - Deng Xiao Peng promptly dumped the entire socialist model in favor of a capitalist model, while keeping the socialist political system. This was a huge change, but they had the "balls and the pragmatism" to do it.

India on the other hand waited for 20 years after China liberalized their economy to open up theirs - credit Manmohan singh for doing that.
Why did it take India 20 years to make the change - my answer is dumb old politicians who are simply incompetent,corrupt, and clueless.

But I digress.....India with its huge expatriate engineering population should be able to reverse engineer select defense related technologies by leveraging the diaspora's expertise, and also copying ideas. I understand that there are risks in this strategy but if you spend enough dollars on foreign military purchases.....then you have the leverage to bootleg some of those complex systems even if your foreign partners get mad at you.

Trying to build a LCA from scratch by engineering every single component is nuts. Maybe they should have bought a small squadron of F-16s 20 years ago from the US, and taken one of those F-16 completely apart down to the nuts and bolts. I'm not an expert, but it may have saved them a couple of years.

yes ,except that chinese spaceships are just bigger ,more compicated and more advanced than "the early Soviet Soyuz manned modules"

 

[Daredevil]

Trying to build a LCA from scratch by engineering every single component is nuts. Maybe they should have bought a small squadron of F-16s 20 years ago from the US, and taken one of those F-16 completely apart down to the nuts and bolts. I'm not an expert, but it may have saved them a couple of years.

Indian strategic planners have now realized the pain of starting from the scratch and now moving fast towards Joint Ventures and Technology of Transfer (ToT) regimes. Now India has money and so it is buying the best technology from the market through ToT agreements like MRCA, Scorpene submarines, Greenpine radars, Barak missiles etc. It is better to buy technology at cheaper rates instead of trying to reverse engineer and end up with a substandard product at the very high cost and not to forget unethical practice and bad blood with the Intellectual property holders. :2guns:

 

[badguy2000]

Indian strategic planners have now realized the pain of starting from the scratch and now moving fast towards Joint Ventures and Technology of Transfer (ToT) regimes. Now India has money and so it is buying the best technology from the market through ToT agreements like MRCA, Scorpene submarines, Greenpine radars, Barak missiles etc. It is better to buy technology at cheaper rates instead of trying to reverse engineer and end up with a substandard product at the very high cost and not to forget unethical practice and bad blood with the Intellectual property holders. :2guns:

unless India really set up its own R&D infrastructures and industry base,TOT can not much helpful.

 

[Daredevil]

unless India really set up its own R&D infrastructures and industry base,TOT can not much helpful.

ToT by itself includes ability to produce all the parts necessary for the given product. All we need is human resources and public/private companies which can absorb the technology as fast as possible. Once such infrastructure is established, it is easy to work on it and develop independently with more research. ToT is all about getting the basics right and accurate while in reverse engineering basics can go awry and one can end up with substandard product and waste of time.

 

[badguy2000]

ToT by itself includes ability to produce all the parts necessary for the given product. All we need is human resources and public/private companies which can absorb the technology as fast as possible. Once such infrastructure is established, it is easy to work on it and develop independently with more research. ToT is all about getting the basics right and accurate while in reverse engineering basics can go awry and one can end up with substandard product and waste of time.

TOT won't give you knowhow.otherwise chinese needn't take 3 decades to indigenized mg21 into J7.

 

[Daredevil]

TOT won't give you knowhow.otherwise chinese needn't take 3 decades to indigenized mg21 into J7.

Please enlighten us as to what is given under ToT.

 

[badguy2000]

Please enlighten us as to what is given under ToT.

Under TOT, the foreign partner will give you all files of blueprints, but the foreign parter won't tell you why the bluprint is designed so.

the foreign parters may set up factory for you and tell you how to operate the factory. but they can not set up a full industry-chains for you. when the maching tool of you plant broke down,you will have ask you partner for help.

foreign partner also teach you how to make the material of components and how to machine the material into component. but they won't tell why the materai should be done as that and how machining tool are manufactured...

frankly speaking, in 1950s, Russian gifted lots of TOT to Chinese ,including mg19,T55,033 Sub,Tu16...etc, however, CHinese took almost 3 decade to get to know the knowhow.

in 1990s,Russian also gave TOT of Su27 to chinese.however Chinese also took almost one decade to digest them and finish the indigesnation of flanker (except engine) . in fact, it was only sevear years ago that china acqured the capacity to modifty and upgrade the fleet of flanker independently


generaly speakingk, the more consolidated the infrastructure of your R&D and industry is ,the sooner you can digest TOT and finish RE..

During 1950s-1980s CHinese industry chain was quite outdated,so it took chinese 3 decades to finish the indigenation of T55 tank,mg21,tu16,033 sub..etc.
after Deng opened the door of china, chinese industry chain got upgrade rapidly ...so it is much easier for chinese defence industry to RE ,with the support of powerful ful industry chain.

 

[badguy2000]

let me show you how the upgrade of chinese civilian industry base helps the upgrade of chinese defence industry.

1,Kavlar Helmet and body armor.

now Kavlar helmet and body armor is the stadard equipment of PLA soldiers,but the material of Kavlar was worked out not by Chinese defence industry complex, but by one garment exportor .

at that time, the garment exportor need upgrade the material of its exporting garment,so invested on the new material of garment with the help of some chinese universities, and work out the material of Kavlar.

with the support of chinese powerful textile industry, CHina-made kavlar helmet and armor body cost only 1/3 of west-made couterpart ,with the same quality. in fact, many helmets and bodyamor of west troops are imported from china.

 

[Daredevil]

Under TOT, the foreign partner will give you all files of blueprints, but the foreign parter won't tell you why the bluprint is designed so.

the foreign parters may set up factory for you and tell you how to operate the factory. but they can not set up a full industry-chains for you. when the maching tool of you plant broke down,you will have ask you partner for help.

foreign partner also teach you how to make the material of components and how to machine the material into component. but they won't tell why the materai should be done as that and how machining tool are manufactured...

Of course, the foreign partner will not spoon feed you everything. There are enough scientists and engineers in Indian defense sector who can absorb the technology faster and can make new products from the technology that they absorb. Making of swordfish radars by DRDO is a good example of that.

 

[badguy2000]

Of course, the foreign partner will not spoon feed you everything. There are enough scientists and engineers in Indian defense sector who can absorb the technology faster and can make new products from the technology that they absorb. Making of swordfish radars by DRDO is a good example of that.

a advancedl and broad civilian industry base can make the R&D of defence project much more easily,because developed civilian industry base can provide ready materal and machining-tech .

the predicament of Indian defence R&D should mainly attributed the backward of Indian civilian industry base, just china in 1960s-1980s.

The example of Kavlar Helmets and bodyarmoer I raised just proves it.

 

[Daredevil]

a advancedl and broad civilian industry base can make the R&D of defence project much more easily,because developed civilian industry base can provide ready materal and machining-tech .

the predicament of Indian defence R&D should mainly attributed the backward of Indian civilian industry base, just china in 1960s-1980s.

The example of Kavlar Helmets and bodyarmoer I raised just proves it.

I don't know why you keep harping about civilian industries when it comes to defense industries (may be because China has biggest civilian industrial base). Can your civilian industries make Tanks, engines, Air crafts, submarines, missiles etc. Answer is a big No.

You need special defense and military industries/organizations to make military hardware with some support from civilian industry.

Answer this, since China has the biggest civilian industrial base in the world why can't it make a state-of-the-art engine till now despite reverse engineering . Don't bring your contorted logic here.