Why did China withdraw from Arunachal in 1962 skirmish?

[Vladimir79]

hi,guy, without the support from Soviet, Vietnamese would not have had any resource to suuport its mission in Cambodia...

That much is true...

Vietnamese was just a proxy of Soviet against China.

And you lost that proxy...

China indeed failed to make Vietnamese retreat from Cambodia in 1979.
But Chinese indeed as well as Yankees made Soviet collapse in 1992.

China didn't do a single thing to make CCCP collapse. Yankees were the ones propping it up by buying our oil and sending us grain. What killed it was a grain famine and a collapse of the price of oil. If Gorby had saved a reserve fund like Putin did and not let everyone say what they wanted under the aegis of perestroika, the CCCP would still exist. On a personal note, I am glad it is gone.

After losing the support from Soviet, Vietnam became one poor doll at the disposal of China.:icon_salut:

Have you looked at Vietnam recently? Their economy is booming and I don't see them buying Chinese weapons. I do see them buying Russian. :thank_you2:

 

[F-14]

i hope that this will help bring the disscusion on track

http://orbat.com/site/cimh/divisions/The Indian Army On The Eve Of The 1962 War.pdf

PLA Orbat

http://orbat.com/site/history/historical/china/sinoindia1962.html

Sino-India Border Self-Defense Counter-Attack Battle 1962 what a name for an Invasion

 

[SATISH]

no ,you are totally wrong, china and ussr have already broken up at 1959,and india get lots of weapon from the usa and the UK,even ussr sent lofs of weapons to india,bcause india lost the war,china got some of the weapon,and after the war ,the new weapons went back to india ,you should google and wiki some more detail, and to tomcat ,what you mean by this pdf?
i trust this Sino-Indian War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

it is a form of file format....And most of the defence forums dont trust Wikipedia as things are edited there by many fanboys...ORBAT is a very famous and reliable site.

 

[Vladimir79]

you should google and wiki some more detail, and to tomcat ,what you mean by this pdf?
i trust this Sino-Indian War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Never trust wiki without backchecking the sources, if it has none then it is no better than someone just saying it happened.

 

[F-14]

Official 1962 War History

 

[Officer of Engineers]

Considering Vietnam didn't withdraw its troops until the end of the CCCP I don't see what you are saying. It was a total Chinese failure.

The Chinese Moscow's strategy. They won.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

That much is true...



And you lost that proxy...



China didn't do a single thing to make CCCP collapse. Yankees were the ones propping it up by buying our oil and sending us grain. What killed it was a grain famine and a collapse of the price of oil. If Gorby had saved a reserve fund like Putin did and not let everyone say what they wanted under the aegis of perestroika, the CCCP would still exist. On a personal note, I am glad it is gone.



Have you looked at Vietnam recently? Their economy is booming and I don't see them buying Chinese weapons. I do see them buying Russian. :thank_you2:

Vlad, the timeline is 1979 and 1984, I fail to see how the Chinese came out behind Moscow in those time periods.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

!

China didn't do a single thing to make CCCP collapse:

Oh come on, Vlad. History is history but the math is still there. You've got 173 Warsaw Pact Divisions against NATO's 87 and 45 Soviet Divisions against China, I know ... I know Cat 3 divisions, still, that is 450,000 men against the 2.5 million men PLA army and your 200 nukes against their 12.

Do you want me to give you the links to NATO's Parallel History Project to list what you have against my army ... and then do the math what you have against the PLA?

Maybe without Afghanistan, you could have afforded it but 450,000 men with 200 nukes ain't cheap and it certainly added to your costs to defend against NATO.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

It is EXTREMELY OBVIOUS that none of you, sorry Vlad but you should have known better, ever understood the exact intent of the 1979 Sino-Vietnam War. It was to BREAK the Soviet encirclement of China (come on, Vlad, it was that obvious!), it was a hell of alot easier to send 2 divisions (20,000 men) into Cambodia than to invade Northern Vietnam (with 200,000 men) and guess which the Chinese chosed to do ... and not because the Chinese loved Pol Pot.

In case you want to argue this further, Vlad, explain the 1984 2nd Sino-Vietnam War. The only way these wars make sense is to break Moscow's encirclement of China.

 

[F-14]

coming back to the topic at hand sir do you think any other reson apart from the usual
Geographical and logstical issues that forced the PLA to withdraw from AP in 62

i also attache the PLA Orbat during the war for your ref


Sino-India Border Self-Defense Counter-Attack Battle 1962 Orbat

v.1.0 April 7, 2002

Xinhui


Sino-India Border Self-Defense Counter-Attack Battle 1962 is official Chinese name for the event of 1962.

1st Phase:

Xizang (Tibet) Military Region Command:

Xizang Frontline Command:

Xizang Garrison 419th formation. (154th, 155th, and 157th regiments)

11th division (32nd, 33rd regiments)

308th artillery regiment

136th engineering regiment

Xizang Military Region command base

Shan-Nan (South Maintain) Front sub-district (1st, 2nd, 3rd regiments)

Lin Zhi Front Sub District (Mi Lin battalion, Mo Tu battalion)

Chang Du Front Sub District (Reinforced battalion of 153rd regiment, Sub District independent battalion)

Xinjing Military Region Kangxiwa command HQ

4th division (10th regiment, 120 artillery battalion, Engineering battalion, Anti-aircraft artillery battalion, communication battalion

2nd regiment, the A-li sub-formation

3rd Cavalry regiment

109th Engineering regiment, 1st battalion.

Second Phase:

Xizang Military Region Frontline Command:

Xizang Garrison 419th formation. (154th, 155th, and 157th regiments)

11th division (32nd, 33rd regiments, Anti-aircraft Artillery battalion, temporary Artillery battalion)

306th, 540th, 308th artillery regiments

136 engineering regiment

24th railroad regiment

130 division (388th, 389th, 390th Regiment, Anti-aircraft Artillery battalion)

153rd regiment

134th division (Mixed Infantry-Artillery battalion, Anti-aircraft Artillery battalion, also acting as HQ unit for 134th division)

135th division (Anti-aircraft Artillery battalion)

Xizang Military Region Base Command:

Shan Nan sub-district (1st regiment)

Lin Zhi Front Sub District command

Xinjing Military Region Kangxiwa command HQ

4th division (10th regiment, 120 artillery battalion, Engineering battalion, Anti-aircraft artillery battalion, communication battalion)

2nd regiment, the A-li sub-formation

3rd Cavalry regiment

 

[Officer of Engineers]

coming back to the topic at hand sir do you think any other reson apart from the usual
Geographical and logstical issues that forced the PLA to withdraw from AP in 62

The military reasons were the primary ones ... and follow on propaganda excuses (Chinese are civilized enough to let their brothers go).

i also attache the PLA Orbat during the war for your ref

Hehehehahahahaha, you do know that Andy Chan (ie, Xinhui) and I are 2 of the 4 founders of the China-Defence.com/forum? The largest and the most academically based PLA open source watchers on the internet? Also, the most boring China-Watcher forum on the internet.

Let me put it to you this way, all four of CDF founders got original documents dating back to 1963, or in my case, I've got 4 CCP Army documents dating back to 1939.

 

[Martian]

OOE, are the "geographical and logstical issues that forced the PLA to withdraw from AP in 62" still true today? If they are then that means any border skirmish will result in the withdrawal of the PLA again. If not, what has changed to allow the PLA to overcome the geographical and logistical issues?

 

[Officer of Engineers]

OOE, are the "geographical and logstical issues that forced the PLA to withdraw from AP in 62" still true today?

They were true when Alexander the Great retreated just as they are true today.

If they are then that means any border skirmish will result in the withdrawal of the PLA again.

Don't understand this. The win has ALWAYS been who wants it more.

If not, what has changed to allow the PLA to overcome the geographical and logistical issues?

Bigger stockpiles. At the regimental level, they have enough stock for 240 days of combat versus 180 published standards for the InA.

In other words, the InA needs to win within 180 days ... which could be done since they've got the superiority of initial force.

 

[Vladimir79]

Oh come on, Vlad. History is history but the math is still there. You've got 173 Warsaw Pact Divisions against NATO's 87 and 45 Soviet Divisions against China, I know ... I know Cat 3 divisions, still, that is 450,000 men against the 2.5 million men PLA army and your 200 nukes against their 12.

Do you want me to give you the links to NATO's Parallel History Project to list what you have against my army ... and then do the math what you have against the PLA?

Maybe without Afghanistan, you could have afforded it but 450,000 men with 200 nukes ain't cheap and it certainly added to your costs to defend against NATO.

Do you want me to give you the links to the CFE Treaty? We had those forces arrayed against China because we did not want to be capped by the low numbers allowed in Europe.

 

[Vladimir79]

It is EXTREMELY OBVIOUS that none of you, sorry Vlad but you should have known better, ever understood the exact intent of the 1979 Sino-Vietnam War. It was to BREAK the Soviet encirclement of China (come on, Vlad, it was that obvious!), it was a hell of alot easier to send 2 divisions (20,000 men) into Cambodia than to invade Northern Vietnam (with 200,000 men) and guess which the Chinese chosed to do ... and not because the Chinese loved Pol Pot.

In case you want to argue this further, Vlad, explain the 1984 2nd Sino-Vietnam War. The only way these wars make sense is to break Moscow's encirclement of China.

I already mentioned it was a Sino-Soviet proxy war. If you are infering China had no designs on Vietnamese territory I think you would be mistaken.

BTW... moving 20,000 troops by sea for China would be a feat even today for China, much less 1979. It wouldn't have done much against the 150,000 Vietnamese already there.

 

[tarunraju]

For them 1962 wasn't a battle for their beliefs. It was merely CCP scoring a "crushing victory", to assert its power and win its people using nationalism, and withdrawing from Arunachal to score a moral ground (for its people).

We've done similar things with Pakistan (returning captured territory and 90,000 POWs). Just as China didn't return Aksai Chin, we didn't return some strategic points in Kashmir. All of it is our territory anyway.

 

[Martian]

Are you saying that China and India use the same strategies and behave similarly? That would mean that China's behavior in 1962 was normal and something to be expected, because "We've done similar things with Pakistan." This further implies that with a cold analysis, future Chinese action can be predicted with a degree of certainty.

 

[tarunraju]

No, what I meant was in our wars with Pakistan, we've returned captured territory, while retaining strategic points too.

 

[natarajan]

tarun but we lost some of the strategic points in kargil war and they are never recaptured

 

[tarunraju]

tarun but we lost some of the strategic points in kargil war and they are never recaptured

A lot of points in the Kargi sector are the retained points we (re-)captured from Pakistan in 1971.